Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Whose purpose?That kinda defeats the whole purpose doesn't it? If everybody gets "saved" guys like our friend Beta here would not have the chance to say, "See, I told you so. Now burn forever you godless heathen."
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Concerning the Hellfire Doctrine
- Thread starter Rainbow Mage
- Start date
Wotan
Active Member
Isaias asks again (xxxiii. 14): "Which of you shall dwell with everlasting burnings?" The answer is : All those sinners who do not give up sin, who do not bewail and confess their sins and amend their life, shall dwell with everlasting burnings!
Let us, dear reader, make every effort, strain every nerve, undergo every suffering, make every sacrifice in this life, that we may escape the horrible fate of those who fall victims, through their own fault, to the Divine justice! No pain is too great, no sacrifice is too dear, when there is question of avoiding eternal torments. Let us then say with St. Augustine: "Lord, burn us here, cut and bruise us in this life, provided Thou spare us in eternity!"
But clearer still is the existence of hell shown by holy Scripture: The pious Job, (X. 22.) speaks of a region of misery and darkness, where the shadows of death and no order, but where eternal terror dwells. The Prophet Isaias (XXX. 33.) says that hell is deep and wide, and that the fire burning in it, is like a stream of sulphur, ignited by the breath of the Lord. Our Saviour expressly says that those who have done evil, shall go to everlasting torment, (Matt. XXV. 46.) that they shall be tortured by everlasting fire. (Matt. XXV. 41.) He makes mention of hell, and says that an inextinguishable fire burns there, and a worm which never dies, plagues the wicked. (Mark IX. 42. 43; Matt. X. 28.) All the Fathers of the Church teach and testify to the same doctrine. St. Augustine, among many others, says: "The infinite wisdom of God tells us that there is a hell, and the illimitable power of God it is that punishes the dam­ned in a wonderful, but real manner."
Let us, dear reader, make every effort, strain every nerve, undergo every suffering, make every sacrifice in this life, that we may escape the horrible fate of those who fall victims, through their own fault, to the Divine justice! No pain is too great, no sacrifice is too dear, when there is question of avoiding eternal torments. Let us then say with St. Augustine: "Lord, burn us here, cut and bruise us in this life, provided Thou spare us in eternity!"
But clearer still is the existence of hell shown by holy Scripture: The pious Job, (X. 22.) speaks of a region of misery and darkness, where the shadows of death and no order, but where eternal terror dwells. The Prophet Isaias (XXX. 33.) says that hell is deep and wide, and that the fire burning in it, is like a stream of sulphur, ignited by the breath of the Lord. Our Saviour expressly says that those who have done evil, shall go to everlasting torment, (Matt. XXV. 46.) that they shall be tortured by everlasting fire. (Matt. XXV. 41.) He makes mention of hell, and says that an inextinguishable fire burns there, and a worm which never dies, plagues the wicked. (Mark IX. 42. 43; Matt. X. 28.) All the Fathers of the Church teach and testify to the same doctrine. St. Augustine, among many others, says: "The infinite wisdom of God tells us that there is a hell, and the illimitable power of God it is that punishes the dam­ned in a wonderful, but real manner."
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Sounds like hell is a scare tactic to me
Taking just one of your quoted 'hellfire' scriptures at random Mat.25v41...depart from me you cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Everlasting fire was never prepared for man who only has temporary life. Once a human is burned up there is nothing left of him for the fire to go on burning. Man just happens to end up in the 'everlasting fire' with the devil and his angels - but man WILL BURN UP and be for ever dead Obed.v16.
Everlasting fire is for everlasting creatures like the devil and the fallen angels.
Hope this explains the mistaken belief of eternal hellfire for man.
2nd Thess. 1v9 equates punishment with everlasting destruction not torture.
So the goat-like ones of Matthew 25v46 experience the everlasting punishment of everlasting destruction.
Just like Satan will be destroyed. - Heb 2v14 b.
See also Psalm 92v7.
How can they believe that when Matthew 20v28 says Jesus ransom covers 'many' not all?
How can they believe that when Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6 says there is an unforgivable sin?
How can they believe that when Matthew chapter 7 makes clear the destruction of those on the broad way?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
It's quite easy really. I wouldn't say I'm a universalist in the very strictest sense, but I am pretty darned close. Allow me to explain why, and how I interpret those verses.
Matthew 20:28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
I believe that Jesus Christ gave His life for as many as would accept Him. Those who have and will, according to my beliefs, will not have to be punished for their sins, because Christ paid the price for them. They will rise in the First Resurrection and be allowed to enter into Heaven. Those who, after having been given every opportunity, both during mortality and while they await the resurrection in the Spirit World after death, refuse to repent of their sins and accept His offer of salvation will have to pay the price for their disobedience and rebellion. During the Savior's Millennial Reign, they will be made to suffer for their own sins, but after having endured the punishment that Christ would have endured for them had they accepted His offer, they too will be admitted into Heaven. Hence, He gave His life as a ransom for many but not all.
Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
I agree with you that there is one sin that is said to be unforgivable. I don't believe all that many people are in a position to be able to commit it, though, as I believe it requires that a person have been in a position to have an absolutely perfect knowledge of God's existance and Christ's divinity and then deny it. I believe, for instance, that the Apostle Peter, having witnessed Christ's Transfiguration, would have been in a position where he could potentially have committed the unforgivable sin. I just don't think many people have been given that degree of knowledge.
I'm not going to quote all of Matthew 7.
I'll just say that I believe in a Heaven made up of the three different glories spoken of by Paul. He said that in the resurrection there will be one glory like that of the stars, another like that of the moon, and another like that of the sun. I believe that, as Matthew 7 says, there will be few who find the straight gate and the narrow way to the greatest of Heaven's glories. That doesn't mean everyone who doesn't is going to be condemned to an eternity in Hell.The straight gate and the narrow way for those alive or living on earth at the time of Jesus 'glory' [Matt 25v31;16v27] who are separated to Jesus right hand of favor, so to speak, remain alive and keep on living on earth right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year rule over earth with the prospect of everlasting life on earth as Adam originally had.
Because all in hell [Rev 20vs13,14] are delivered up then no one is condemned to hell.
Just as Jesus was not condemned to hell [Acts 2v27,31]. Emptied out hell dies a symbolic second death of no return.
2nd Peter chapter 3 mentions three heavens:
First, verse 5 mentions the 'old' heavens of Noah's day.
Second, verse 7 mentions the heavens of 'now' or our time frame since Noah.
Third, verse 13 mentions the 'new' heavens where righteousness will dwell.
Righteous 'heavens' will rule over earth during Jesus millennial-long day of ruling over earth or righteous earthly society.
So besides a heavenly hope there is an earthly hope for humble meek one to inherit the earth under a heavenly righteous kingdom or God's royal heavenly government after the wicked are gone.- Psalm 92v7; 37vs11,29,38; Proverbs 2vs21,22
Because all in hell [Rev 20vs13,14] are delivered up then no one is condemned to hell.
Just as Jesus was not condemned to hell [Acts 2v27,31]. Emptied out hell dies a symbolic second death of no return.
2nd Peter chapter 3 mentions three heavens:
First, verse 5 mentions the 'old' heavens of Noah's day.
Second, verse 7 mentions the heavens of 'now' or our time frame since Noah.
Third, verse 13 mentions the 'new' heavens where righteousness will dwell.
Righteous 'heavens' will rule over earth during Jesus millennial-long day of ruling over earth or righteous earthly society.
So besides a heavenly hope there is an earthly hope for humble meek one to inherit the earth under a heavenly righteous kingdom or God's royal heavenly government after the wicked are gone.- Psalm 92v7; 37vs11,29,38; Proverbs 2vs21,22
I.S.L.A.M617
Illuminatus
Who does the wicked include?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Okay, well I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree over this one, because I know I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine.
Include all that willfully practice evil.
Hebrews 10v26.
If you look at the 'woes' [Matt 23vs1-29] then we see the wicked includes wolf-like religious leaders dressed in sheep's clothing that are fleecing the flock for their own agenda. Jesus said they were from their father the devil at John 8v44; Acts 20vs29,30.
Revelation [11v18] shows God considers those that want to ruin the earth that God has gifted to us as worthy of destruction. So any God considers worthy of destruction would be wicked in his eyes.
Also, for our time frame [Matt 25v40;24v14] apparently Jesus judges on the basis of the reaction of people to the message of the Good News of God's kingdom and how people treat his 'brothers'. The world can't get at Jesus in the heavens but they can go against or oppose Jesus visible 'brothers' on earth. Those Jesus judges as goat-like are going to be destroyed with the everlasting punishment [2 Thess 1v9] of everlasting destruction before the start of Jesus peaceful thousand-year rule over earth.
Isaiah 11vs3,4.
Don't you marvel at this infallible "Word of God"? Perfect in every way, universal in application as time place and person - just the greatest communication in human history.
Except no body knows what it means.
Jesus taught from the angle that he had special religious knowledge and explained why by reasoning on already existing Scripture.
Like the false religious leaders of Jesus day [Matthew chapter 23] Scripture informs that wolf-like clergy dressed in sheep's clothing would fleece the flock for their own agenda.- Acts 20vs29,30. They used Not Scripture but their own traditional opinions outside of Scripture [Mark 7v7,13] and shove it into the mouth of God [Bible] as if they are some sort of holy ventriloquist.
Instead of listening to the words that came out of Jesus mouth, they put words, so to speak, in his mouth and mislead the people. Such as having a political agenda and use the pulpit as a recruiting station in order to get parents to sacrifice their children on the alter of war.
Jesus illustration of the Wheat and Weeds [tares] shows that both genuine and false followers would grow together over the centuries until the time of the harvest or harvest time of separation of Matthew 25. That is why there are so many that come "In His Name" but prove false.- Matt chapter 7.
We are at the time of the fishing dragnet of Matt 13vs47,48; 24v14 before Jesus, as the fine Shepherd, separates the people of Matt 25vs32,40 before the start of Jesus peaceful millennial rule over earth.
Unrepentant sinners. :sad: