Confused about Sikhism/Hinduism differences

[ronki23]

Whoops,double post! I'll add more questions:


LONG POST


I just find it odd how Hindus claim Sikhism when Sikhs deny it, and how Sikhs don't answer the Hindu verses! Sibling rivalry?!!

I also find it strange how Hindus and Sikhs get along because of the British e.g. first born Hindus becoming Sikh soldiers for the benefits during the Raj, but today it has vanished and all I can see are anti-India pages by Sikhs (who don't like any Congress members, even Mahatma Gandhi or Vallahbhai Patel and [from haters online] call today's Sikh Congress members frauds yet they hate BJP too/didn't vote out Congress in the first place [Singh was a good finance minister but Sikhs could have voted for BJP 1984-1991 or after Singh's resignation as finance minister])

Sikh Sangat says Bhindranwale and Canada's Babber Khalsa were not the same?

Babbar Khalsa And Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Bhindranwale - Page 3 - WHAT'S HAPPENING? - The Voice of Sikhs

Sikh Wiki says little ill of them too

Babbar Khalsa - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.


Is there proof of this flight bombing as the wiki suggests there isn't.

Would there have been any worse a situation if Akali Dal was in charge?

Babber Khalsa,Akali Dal,Bhindranwale, Inderjit Singh Reyat, Talvinder Singh Parmar, Ajaib Singh Bagri, Khalistan Zindabad Force, Khalistan Tigers; are these individuals linked or are they sepratist as they're orthodox

And Hindus visit Sikh Gurudwara a and marry in them, but not the other way around (though some say Sikhs do so but like pro-Indians they have 'no time' to do this online compared to the Khalistanis). Seriously, 'no time' to be pro India or against individuals? I've seen Moslem websites against Al Qaeda and even pro Israel websites from Muslims

Surprised no answer to the Hindu deaths from 1983 on an earlier post, BEFORE the 1984 riots.

Edited

 

[Aupmanyav]

Also, I though Vedas is the common denominator between all Hindus? Geeta too I assume?

I would say Vedas are accepted, but Gita is loved.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. yet they hate BJP too/didn't vote out Congress in the first place ..

And Hindus visit Sikh Gurudwaras and marry in them, but not the other way around ..

Surprised no answer to the Hindu deaths from 1983 on an earlier post, BEFORE the 1984 riots.

Sibling rivalry outside India, none in India. Hindus have no problem when Sikhs consider themselves different. Hindus will never do so. Punjab has a Sikh/Hindu government, Akali Dal is heading the in charge. That does not mean that Sikhs would not go with Congress. The 84 riots were unfortunate, but how long can/should we dwell on it? Did not Hindus suffer equally? Well, Hindu girls too marry Sikhs. The main problem is the hair and the beard, and not religion; otherwise, there would have been many more marriages. Estimates, but, some 10,000 Hindus were killed before 84 riots, around the same as Sikhs. Pakistan cannot wish well either for Hindus or for Sikhs. Most Sikh separatists are opportunists and get their money from the diaspora, Pakistan, and perhaps US also.

 

[ronki23]

Sibling rivalry outside India, none in India. Hindus have no problem when Sikhs consider themselves different. Hindus will never do so. Punjab has a Sikh/Hindu government, Akali Dal is heading the in charge. That does not mean that Sikhs would not go with Congress. The 84 riots were unfortunate, but how long can/should we dwell on it? Did not Hindus suffer equally? Well, Hindu girls too marry Sikhs. The main problem is the hair and the beard, and not religion; otherwise, there would have been many more marriages. Estimates, but, some 10,000 Hindus were killed before 84 riots, around the same as Sikhs. Pakistan cannot wish well either for Hindus or for Sikhs. Most Sikh separatists are opportunists and get their money from the diaspora, Pakistan, and perhaps US also.

10,000 Hindus killed before '84? Source? Why no genocide claims/annual marches/websites regarding it?

Still would love a Sikh to analyse that Krishna passage I posted. Seems Sri Guru Granth Sahib has contradictions like other religious texts. Is it a marriage of convenience that Hindus and Sikhs/Jains/Buddhists get along due to the Raj's administration but not Hindus and non-Dharmic religions (I've seen Sikhs and Hindus marry 'Christians' in the UK but both the Indian and the English guy are Anglicised and secular and this is in the UK, not India)

Also assuming Bhindranwale is not in the same group as the Babber Khalsa of Canada. Sikhwiki is quite a moderate website yet even they (alongside wikipedia) doubt Air India bombings were by Babber Khalsa.

All I've learned is Bhindranwale wasn't a bad guy after all yet pro Indian Sikhs have 'no time' . I've found plenty of websites with Muslims against Al Qaeda, Yassin and Arafat, and websites with Jews criticising Israel but no Sikhs against Khalistan (with the exception of the video MV posted with Congress members)

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

I read what you wrote, but you're failing to understand the subtle differences in this matter. On this I can't help you any more.

Also, bld red font conveys your own emotion more than it does mine.

Good bye.

Okay, so I have two more questions. How is doing the lAva phere during weddings or doing the phere around the nishAn sAhib after mathA TekNA (not done at all gurdwara's, but I've seen it done at many gurdwara-s, especially at banglA sahib) any less idolatrous than how Hindu-s perform pradakShiNA around the sacred fire during weddings (which is considered a form of ArAdhanam to agni) or when people (mainly Hindu-s, but also some Jaina-s and Bauddha-s) do parikramA around kailAs parvat on mAnasarovara yAtrA? I await a response...

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, Bhinderanwale was perhaps not a bad guy. He was first hijacked by Congress, and then by separatists. You are welcome to dwell on what is not true, Sikhs in India will go their way, hand-in-hand with Hindus. The Pakistani incitement (that is what it was, Pakistanis are the same stock with the same language. Many infiltrated and masqueraded as Sikhs and committed atrocities even on Sikhs during those days) did not benefit Sikhs in any way.

 

[ronki23]

No answer to my previous 2 posts? They're the most important questions of all:

Krishna IS the most popular God in Hinduism and Sri Guru Granth Sahib says Waheguru is Krishna [i've said 100 times, if you 'counter quote' then there is a contradiction like with scriptures of other religions])

KS Brar, Maninderjeet Singh Bitta and Ujjal Dosanjh were attacked by Khalistanis; are those who attacked these people the 'original' Khalistanis from the '80s or new groups? The 'bad guys' of Babber Khalsa who bombed Air India have no conclusive evidence of their liability! We all know for 'a fact' Bhindranwale was not a bad guy after all and he was indifferent toward Khalistan; it was all about Sikh rights

"I don't oppose it nor do I support it. We are silent. However, one thing is definite that if this time the Queen of India does give it to us, we shall certainly take it. We won't reject it. We shall not repeat the mistake of 1946. As yet, we do not ask for it. It is Indira Gandhi's business and not mine, nor Longowal's, nor of any other of our leaders. It is Indira's business. Indira should tell us whether she wants to keep us in Hindustan or not. We like to live together, we like to live in India."

Let us make it clear once and for all that the Sikhs have no designs to get away from India in any manner. What they simply want is that they should be allowed to live within India as Sikhs, free from all direct and indirect interference and tampering with their religious way of life. Undoubtedly, the Sikhs have the same nationality as other Indians.


—Harcharan Singh Longowal, President of Akali Dal
​

​

ANYWAY, another Hindu family from the Punjab I know is claiming Sikhi as part of Hinduism/ KPS Gill & Parkash Singh Badal are 'good' people so i'm assuming education on Sikhi is distorted in India. He and his family wear Kara even though they're Hindu.

Who is right? It seems these Punjabi Hindus (and even my own family) see Khalistanis of '84 as terrorists (my own father said they gave ample warning during Bluestar). But at the same time, i've never asked British Sikhs their opinion (the Punjabi guy says today's Sikhs celebrate Holi and Rakhi for convenience and the Jatt Sikhs of Punjab worship an incarnation of Shiva

I can't seem to find the picture and I don't remember the name but the picture is of a blue skinned worshipper akin to Shiva but with his hair down and behind him are many Peacock feathers. There is a smaller picture of Shiva in the corner.

 

[Aupmanyav]

When Sri Guru Granth Sahib mentions Rama or Krishna, the reference is to 'Ek Onkar'. We do not have any problem with that. Sikhs are happy in India. They have their own religion and law, and nobody interferes with that. A large percentage of Hinhdu boys in North wear 'kara'. Some wear it for their belief in Sri Guru Nanak, others wear it more as a fashion. Hindus have no problem with that. Sikh education is according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib. You may have complaints about that, Hindus don't have any. We had a bad patch, now we are over it. I fail to understand what your problem is? Find your picture.

 

[ronki23]

When Sri Guru Granth Sahib mentions Rama or Krishna, the reference is to 'Ek Onkar'. We do not have any problem with that. Sikhs are happy in India. They have their own religion and law, and nobody interferes with that. A large percentage of Hinhdu boys in North wear 'kara'. Some wear it for their belief in Sri Guru Nanak, others wear it more as a fashion. Hindus have no problem with that. Sikh education is according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib. You may have complaints about that, Hindus don't have any. We had a bad patch, now we are over it. I fail to understand what your problem is? Find your picture.

Yet that specific quote still has yet to be addressed. It seems Hindus only visit Gurudwaras due to geographical convenience over the course of history.

My sample is very small here (one 50 year old Hindu Punjabi woman, a Hindu Punjabi family of a 45 year old man and his wife [2 kids under 10 too] , 2 Punjabi males in their 30s, and my Gujarati parents).
The 3 Hindu Punjabis (and the 2 kids) will most likely have their immediate family believe this too and these 2 Punjabi males are allegedly Sikhs so their families too. So at a minimum these figures will double (each individuals' parents will share this view and they'll most likely have siblings).

With beliefs like from Hindu Punjabis, I feel these people are bias and should not be asked on Sikh beliefs .
Yet as many say, the Sikhs on the internet are anti-Congress at best so they too will have a bias view regarding: Hindu-Sikh lineage,the 'culprits' of Air India bombings (that haven't been proven guilty) and the Babber Khalsa members who still freely walk the streets of Canada .

This Shiva incarnation is Baba Bhalab (?) ji.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, my daughter-in-law had problems during the birth of our second grandson and my wife vowed to bring the new born to Gurudwara Nanakpura if every thing went alright, call it superstition or whatever. Later, on way back from the hospital on the fourth day, the Gurudwara Nanakpura was his first stop. 'Babe di Mehr'. How can you separate Hindus from Sikhs?

He is still a sikh at the age of two and a half year as we have not got him tonsured, and even has a sikh girl-friend.
Amogh on his first birth-day.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/members/aupmanyav-albums-amogh-picture4952-varenya.jpg

 

[GURSIKH]

Well, my daughter-in-law had problems during the birth of our second grandson and my wife vowed to bring the new born to Gurudwara Nanakpura if every thing went alright, call it superstition or whatever. Later, on way back from the hospital on the fourth day, the Gurudwara Nanakpura was his first stop. 'Babe di Mehr'. How can you separate Hindus from Sikhs?

He is still a sikh at the age of two and a half year as we have not got him tonsured, and even has a sikh girl-friend.
Amogh on his first birth-day.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/members/aupmanyav-albums-amogh-picture4952-varenya.jpg

Your Grandson is very cute , very capable of attracting GF

 

[Aupmanyav]

Thanks Gursikh. Some Sikh boys are also very cute. No wonder, one of my nieces married one (a proper mustachioed and bearded sikh).

 

[ronki23]

Thanks Gursikh. Some Sikh boys are also very cute. No wonder, one of my nieces married one (a proper mustachioed and bearded sikh).

But do Hindu Punjabis marry Sikhs out of convenience only? It seems Hindus,Jains and Buddhists intermarry but it's frowned upon with Muslims who too are monotheistic and 'book worshippers'. Even with Christians it seems unpopular (though Hindus don't claim Christianity though this could be a sense of nationalism)

Interesting 2 links


this one proves Bhindranwale's 'innocence' though I posted it earlier without subtitles. This may help all non-Punjabis

Start at 06:55 and wait for the infamous quote at 7:48 to see the follow up

[youtube]oBVt2RV8Hq4[/youtube]
Part 2 Truth About Bhindranwale - YouTube

The thing is, we don't have conclusive evidence on the guys from Canada and UK e.g. Babber Khalsa and their links to Bhindranwale and Air India. Plus these guys below are not exactly nice:

IREF

 

[Aupmanyav]

But do Hindu Punjabis marry Sikhs out of convenience only? It seems Hindus,Jains and Buddhists intermarry but it's frowned upon with Muslims who too are monotheistic and 'book worshippers'. Even with Christians it seems unpopular.

this one proves Bhindranwale's 'innocence' though I posted it earlier without subtitles. This may help all non-Punjabis

The thing is, we don't have conclusive evidence on the guys from Canada and UK e.g. Babber Khalsa and their links to Bhindranwale and Air India.

The first preference is for one's own caste and religion. But now young men and women come in contact with each other during studies and in jobs, and may choose a person who may not be from their caste or religion. There is more likelihood of acceptance if the person is from Indian religions than if he/she is a Christian or a Muslim. One of my nieces married a christian, for me, she is practically out of the family now.

I do not know enough about Sant Bhinderanwale to praise him or hate him. So, I would not comment. I think Congress used him as a tool. As for the separatists and their Pakistani or Western protagonists, I only have hate. In my view the proofs are enough to link separatists to the Air India crash.

 

[ronki23]

The first preference is for one's own caste and religion. But now young men and women come in contact with each other during studies and in jobs, and may choose a person who may not be from their caste or religion. There is more likelihood of acceptance if the person is from Indian religions than if he/she is a Christian or a Muslim. One of my nieces married a christian, for me, she is practically out of the family now.

I do not know enough about Sant Bhinderanwale to praise him or hate him. So, I would not comment. I think Congress used him as a tool. As for the separatists and their Pakistani or Western protagonists, I only have hate. In my view the proofs are enough to link separatists to the Air India crash.

So it's not ok for a Hindu to marry a monotheist if said monotheism is from the West, but it's ok for a Hindu to marry a monotheist from a religion that is from India???? That is racism in my book

The point regarding Air India is that Sikh Wiki, who say this

Sikhism was influenced by reform movements in Hinduism (e.g. Bhakti, monism, Vedic metaphysics, guru ideal, and bhajans) as well as Sufi Islam... There is no dispute that many of the original Sikhs were previously Hindus(as they were following their way), but if we go by the actual Hindu practises then Sikhs are very much different from Hindus in their beliefs and practises.

also says this

(Babber Khalsa) was, and continues to be, sponsored largely by expatriate Sikhs, particularly in the United Kingdom and Canada. Babbar Khalsa is listed as a terrorist organisation by the United Kingdom, India, and the United States. The United States has designated Babbar Khalsa responsible for the bombing of despite 3 of the 4 suspects being found not guilty of all charges placed against them in a Canadian trial in 2005 due to lack of evidence.

I ask for the hundredth time, is Babber Khalsa the same as the Khalistan Zindabad Force and is that the same as the Bhindranwala Tiger Forces?

What about Inderjit Singh Reyat, Talvinder Singh Parmar, Ajaib Singh Bagri? Were they in liason with Bhindranwale's guys? Kuldip Singh Brar was stabbed and Ujjal Dosanjh was beaten up. Alongside Air India, do today's Khalistanis have any links to the originals from India?

And Sikh Network and Sikh Sangat are no better.

Though I think Sikh Sangat is as bad as Sikh Lionz and Khalistan Net.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So it's not ok for a Hindu to marry a monotheist if said monotheism is from the West, but it's ok for a Hindu to marry a monotheist from a religion that is from India???? That is racism in my book.

I ask for the hundredth time, is Babber Khalsa the same as the Khalistan Zindabad Force and is that the same as the Bhindranwala Tiger Forces? What about .. bad as Sikh Lionz and Khalistan Net.

Why? Don't we have monotheists in Hinduism? A well known example is Hare-Krishnas. What are Shaivas, Vaishnavas, and Shaktas? Many worship just one deity.

Why should you ask this a hundred times? Is once or twice not enough? All separatists are the same, whatever name they adopt.

 

[ronki23]

Why? Don't we have monotheists in Hinduism? A well known example is Hare-Krishnas. What are Shaivas, Vaishnavas, and Shaktas? Many worship just one deity.

Why should you ask this a hundred times? Is once or twice not enough? All separatists are the same, whatever name they adopt.

But the point is, Indians think it's ok for Jains, Buddhists,Sikhs and Hindus to marry even though the religions are different but because Islam comes from Arabia and Christianity comes from the Europeans, it's somehow worse. I can't comment on Christianity but you yourself said Indians don't like when Christians marry Dharmics and we all know it's a big no-no when a Muslim marries a Dharmic. It's double standards as Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists (not so much the latter 2) express that they are not Hindus.

All separatists are not the same. The Hamas are responsible for suicide bombings and terrorist attacks in Israel but the Fatah actually negotiated with the Jews. Or perhaps you could look at the Tamil Tigers of Elam and the continued abuses by the Sri Lankan government to civilians even when the war is over. Can't comment on the Tibetan and Uighyur movement as historically they were part of China and i'm surprised the South of India stays part of India considering they don't even speak Hindi!!

I'd hardly say Bhindranwale was a Mandela but more of a Che Guevera. But the Sikhs who defend him have no answer for the Western Khalistan movement or the Hindu deaths at the hands of the Sikh extremists from 1982 onward (before Che Bhindranwale was even put on the map)!!

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. it's somehow worse. I can't comment on Christianity but you yourself said Indians don't like when Christians marry Dharmics and we all know it's a big no-no when a Muslim marries a Dharmic.

.. but the Fatah actually negotiated with the Jews. .. i'm surprised the South of India stays part of India considering they don't even speak Hindi!!

.. have no answer for the Western Khalistan movement or the Hindu deaths at the hands of the Sikh extremists from 1982 onward ..

We have nothing common with Christians and Muslims, but have many things common with Jains, Buddhists, and Sikhs.

We have Akalis in India. They negotiate. Speaking Hindi is not an essential requirement for being a Hindu or being an Indian. What do you want? A break up of India? Muslim? Can't understand why Pakistan broke up and India does not? We are too strong for that. A million strong Army with a million reserves, and other forces.

Yes, they are answerable for that. Bhindranwale was on the map from 1982.
"In August 1982, Bhindranwale and the Akali Dal launched the Dharam Yudh Morcha (battle for righteousness), with its stated aims being the fulfillment of a list of demands based on the Anandpur Sahib Resolution." (Wikipedia)

 

[ronki23]

We have nothing common with Christians and Muslims, but have many things common with Jains, Buddhists, and Sikhs.

We have Akalis in India. They negotiate. Speaking Hindi is not an essential requirement for being a Hindu or being an Indian. What do you want? A break up of India? Muslim? Can't understand why Pakistan broke up and India does not? We are too strong for that. A million strong Army with a million reserves, and other forces.

Yes, they are answerable for that. Bhindranwale was on the map from 1982.
"In August 1982, Bhindranwale and the Akali Dal launched the Dharam Yudh Morcha (battle for righteousness), with its stated aims being the fulfillment of a list of demands based on the Anandpur Sahib Resolution." (Wikipedia)

That's Indian prejudice and propaganda. Hindus believe in idol worship and polytheism (yes I know not all of them do but many do). Buddhists,Jains and Sikhs, like Muslims and Christians, do not. How is it ok for a Hindu to marry a Dharmic and not an Abrahamic when the other Dharmics themselves state they do not want to be considered as branches of Hinduism (Bhindranwale a big example of this).

As for the Bhindranwale thing, you misunderstood. Are Babber Khalsa, the Khalistan Zindabad Force and the Bhindranwala Tigers the same thing? Because the Babber Khalsa has done many-a-wrong thing.

How can the Khalistan movement be seen as bad but many agree there's no proof of Bhindranwale's crimes? You must separate the man from the group because Babber Khalsa has been blacklisted in the West too.

And Babber Khalsa were responsible for assault on Dosanjh and Brar, as well as what I shown from 1982, yet no Sikh forums address these. Sikh websites/forums even say Air India's bombing wasn't down to Babber Khalsa

If Babber Khalsa were responsible for Air India bombing, why were charges dropped?

 

[Poeticus]

That's Indian prejudice and propaganda. Hindus believe in idol worship and polytheism (yes I know not all of them do but many do). Buddhists,Jains and Sikhs, like Muslims and Christians, do not. How is it ok for a Hindu to marry a Dharmic and not an Abrahamic when the other Dharmics themselves state they do not want to be considered as branches of Hinduism (Bhindranwale a big example of this).

Even though countless Dharmics do not desire to be categorized as a branch of Hinduism (and I totally support their desire and cause), they see a theological playing field that is level, not rocky.

Plus, this really shouldn't be that hard. Most Dharmics I have encountered are united in their anti-proselytizing. As far as I know, they don't like hearing "false god this and false god that", and "Buddha is in hell" and the "Tirthankaras were fraudsters".

Apart from that, I would not really say that it is "okay" in the sense that Dharmics should marry ONLY other Dharmics...it would be a better evaluation rather to state that it is convenient and not full of friction.

Heck, my college is full of Punjabi and Marathi Jains. Almost all of them wouldn't mind marrying a Hindu. But, I rarely see any one of them dating a Muslim or a Christian.

However, there is nothing racist about this on the surface level. On the deeper level, I have no idea. To speculate on the deeper level would be just that...speculation.

As for the Bhindranwale thing, you misunderstood. Are Babber Khalsa, the Khalistan Zindabad Force and the Bhindranwala Tigers the same thing? Because the Babber Khalsa has done many-a-wrong thing.

How can the Khalistan movement be seen as bad but many agree there's no proof of Bhindranwale's crimes? You must separate the man from the group because Babber Khalsa has been blacklisted in the West too.

And Babber Khalsa were responsible for assault on Dosanjh and Brar, as well as what I shown from 1982, yet no Sikh forums address these. Sikh websites/forums even say Air India's bombing wasn't down to Babber Khalsa

If Babber Khalsa were responsible for Air India bombing, why were charges dropped?

As per my opinion, I love and admire the religious Sikhs and their distinctive identity. A lot of my friends back in India in the cosmopolitan cities are mostly Sikh. Awesome and warm loving guys. Apart from two or three, almost all of them are anti-Khalistan movement. India can't handle a Balkanization right now. I'm sure you'd agree. It's economically, politically, socially, and militaristically insane.