Confused about Sikhism/Hinduism differences

[ronki23]

Even though countless Dharmics do not desire to be categorized as a branch of Hinduism (and I totally support their desire and cause), they see a theological playing field that is level, not rocky.

Plus, this really shouldn't be that hard. Most Dharmics I have encountered are united in their anti-proselytizing. As far as I know, they don't like hearing "false god this and false god that", and "Buddha is in hell" and the "Tirthankaras were fraudsters".

Apart from that, I would not really say that it is "okay" in the sense that Dharmics should marry ONLY other Dharmics...it would be a better evaluation rather to state that it is convenient and not full of friction.

Heck, my college is full of Punjabi and Marathi Jains. Almost all of them wouldn't mind marrying a Hindu. But, I rarely see any one of them dating a Muslim or a Christian.

However, there is nothing racist about this on the surface level. On the deeper level, I have no idea. To speculate on the deeper level would be just that...speculation.



As per my opinion, I love and admire the religious Sikhs and their distinctive identity. A lot of my friends back in India in the cosmopolitan cities are mostly Sikh. Awesome and warm loving guys. Apart from two or three, almost all of them are anti-Khalistan movement. India can't handle a Balkanization right now. I'm sure you'd agree. It's economically, politically, socially, and militaristically insane.

I'm sure I sent you the link that shows India is overreliant on the Punjab although the links are bias

Khalistan » Economic Viability

Plus the point is, there is no Sikh website or forum condemning the Air India bombing or the fact that several of their groups have been listed as terrorist organisations by Canada,the USA and UK but you can easily go online and find Muslim condemnation of 9/11 or even Muslims against the Hamas/ siding with Israel. You have plenty of websites where you get Muslims supporting the Afghan warriors against the Taliban.
You also get many British and Americans against war in Iraq. Yet the Sikhs on the internet, even on moderate websites like Sikh Wiki say that Air India bombing was not down to Babber Khalsa. Plus I question why the charges were dropped.

And no Sikhs have answered deaths by Sikh extremists from 1982 in that booklet.

 

[Poeticus]

I'm sure I sent you the link that shows India is overreliant on the Punjab although the links are bias

Khalistan » Economic Viability

Plus the point is, there is no Sikh website or forum condemning the Air India bombing or the fact that several of their groups have been listed as terrorist organisations by Canada,the USA and UK but you can easily go online and find Muslim condemnation of 9/11 or even Muslims against the Hamas/ siding with Israel. You have plenty of websites where you get Muslims supporting the Afghan warriors against the Taliban.
You also get many British and Americans against war in Iraq. Yet the Sikhs on the internet, even on moderate websites like Sikh Wiki say that Air India bombing was not down to Babber Khalsa. Plus I question why the charges were dropped.

And no Sikhs have answered deaths by Sikh extremists from 1982 in that booklet.

I don't know anything about that^. But, the Balkanization of India is the wet-dream of those that are anti-India. It's insane because India is a collective union of regional ethno-linguistic states that is too involved in world politics, from Far East to the Far West. Balkanizing India would take many years for stuff to get back on track. It would be extremely chaotic.

Ironically, a lot of the supporters for the Balkanization of India are radical Paksitanis like Zaid Hamid/Laal Topee...

...but, even they don't seem to understand that the Balkanization of India would be no different than the Balkanization of Pakistan. Yet, I rarely hear them being supportive of the Balkanization of Pakistan. I find it to be hypocritical. Why Balkanize India along ethno-lingusitic grounds when the same can be done to the countries of those that are pro-Balkanize-India?

 

[Aupmanyav]

That's Indian prejudice and propaganda. Hindus believe in idol worship and polytheism (yes I know not all of them do but many do). Buddhists,Jains and Sikhs, like Muslims and Christians, do not.

Buddha idol (120 meters, 394 feet), Jain idol (Bahubali, 56 meters), Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji (sikh make extensive use of images. I know of no Sikh house which do not have images of their gurus). I can see that you are a Pakistani Muslim, you know nothing about Dharmic religions (Why Pakistani? Because Muslims from other countries do not care much about Dharmic religions). :lol:

@ MaitraVarunih, I see a further balkanization of Pakistan a distinct possibility rather than a balkanization of India. :yes:

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yet the Sikhs on the internet, even on moderate websites like Sikh Wiki say that Air India bombing was not down to Babber Khalsa. Plus I question why the charges were dropped.

"A total of 329 people were killed, including 268 Canadians, 27 British citizens and 24 Indians. The incident was the largest mass murder in Canadian history, ..

After the release of the findings, Stephen Harper announced in the media, on the 25th anniversary of the disaster, that he would "acknowledge the catastrophic failures of intelligence, policing and air security that led to the bombing, and the prosecutorial lapses that followed" and deliver an apology on behalf of the sitting Cabinet."
Air India Flight 182 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think most of the Canadian citizens must have been Sikhs. :sad:

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

I can see that you are a Pakistani Muslim, you know nothing about Dharmic religions (Why Pakistani? Because Muslims from other countries do not care much about Dharmic religions). :lol:

I don't think he's pAkistAnI, as he made a really ridiculous typo here (how could you confuse ساعدونا فى نشر الصفحة والدال على الخير كفاعلة عملية لن تأخذ ثوانى with
لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله, unless you knew next-to-nothing about the aarabic script [of which a variation is used to write urdu]?) Also, some bA~NglAdeshI Muslims are also somewhat obsessed with Dharmic religions. I've never been to bA~NglAdesh, but some bA~NglA Muslim (contemptuous something) I remember was trolling me on the comments a nirvANashaTkam vid. on youtube a couple of months ago.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I just don't get what bothers him. I have tried with all my effort.

 

[ronki23]

Buddha idol (120 meters, 394 feet), Jain idol (Bahubali, 56 meters), Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji (sikh make extensive use of images. I know of no Sikh house which do not have images of their gurus). I can see that you are a Pakistani Muslim, you know nothing about Dharmic religions (Why Pakistani? Because Muslims from other countries do not care much about Dharmic religions). :lol:

@ MaitraVarunih, I see a further balkanization of Pakistan a distinct possibility rather than a balkanization of India. :yes:

Sikh Wiki

• Idol Worshippers are ignorant fools (ਪਾਥਰ੝ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮ੝ਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ &#2405
• Idol Worshippers are Sinners and Loon Haram.(ਗ੝ਨਹਗਾਰ ਲੂਣ ਹਰਾਮੀ ॥ ਪਾਹਣ ਨਾਵ ਨ ਪਾਰਗਿਰਾਮੀ ॥3&#2405 * i'm not particularly happy here with those last 2 words
• Idol Worshippers works is wasted in vain. (ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਕਹਤੇ ਦੇਵ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ &#2405
• Idol Worshippers are Blind. (ਅੰਧੀ ਕੰਮੀ ਅੰਧ ਸਜਾਇ &#2405

See commandment number 2

The point is that nobody truely follows their religions. It's pretty prejudice if a Hindu can marry a Dharmic but not an Abrahamic if Sikhs do not like idolatry!! Jains and Buddhists are not Hindus either but 'it's ok because they're Indian' should not be an excuses.

Tell me, are Zoroastrians accepted? Because if they are it seems to me that Indians have an issue with Christians and Muslims because unlike the Zoroastrians, they didn't come in peace

 

[ronki23]

"A total of 329 people were killed, including 268 Canadians, 27 British citizens and 24 Indians. The incident was the largest mass murder in Canadian history, ..

After the release of the findings, Stephen Harper announced in the media, on the 25th anniversary of the disaster, that he would "acknowledge the catastrophic failures of intelligence, policing and air security that led to the bombing, and the prosecutorial lapses that followed" and deliver an apology on behalf of the sitting Cabinet."
Air India Flight 182 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think most of the Canadian citizens must have been Sikhs. :sad:

So you're saying charges were dropped due to poor monitoring of the situation? Even 9/11 didn't have conclusive evidence but America still managed to connect the dots and make the arrests. The Canadians are letting these 'terrorists' walk free.

I really don't see what the point of that quote was. I'm just pointing out that if everyone thinks Bhindranwale wasn't that bad after all, why are these other guys blacklisted by the rest of the world if Bhindranwale himself was actually a 'good guy'. Why haven't the Sikhs explained/ tried to justify the deaths from '82 from other Sikh militants.

Could it be that Babber Khalsa is piggybacking on Bhindranwale's name like how today's Islamists piggyback on Muhammed (who has also been scrutinised and held to today's standards)

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

• Idol Worshippers are ignorant fools (ਪਾਥਰ੝ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮ੝ਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ &#2405
• Idol Worshippers are Sinners and Loon Haram.(ਗ੝ਨਹਗਾਰ ਲੂਣ ਹਰਾਮੀ ॥ ਪਾਹਣ ਨਾਵ ਨ ਪਾਰਗਿਰਾਮੀ ॥3&#2405 * i'm not particularly happy here with those last 2 words
• Idol Worshippers works is wasted in vain. (ਜੋ ਪਾਥਰ ਕਉ ਕਹਤੇ ਦੇਵ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੇਵ &#2405
• Idol Worshippers are Blind. (ਅੰਧੀ ਕੰਮੀ ਅੰਧ ਸਜਾਇ &#2405

WTH? I went to the Sikhiwiki site (after googling your quote) and it put ("b**tards") in parentheses after "Loon Haram." As far as I know, lUN harAmI (ਲੂਣ ਹਰਾਮ&#2624 means traitor, not "b**tards." It's still offensive, but it's odd that the Sikhiwiki people don't even know Punjabi. Pathetic.

 

[ronki23]

WTH? I went to the Sikhiwiki site (after googling your quote) and it put ("b**tards") in parentheses after "Loon Haram." As far as I know, lUN harAmI (ਲੂਣ ਹਰਾਮ&#2624 means traitor, not "b**tards." It's still offensive, but it's odd that the Sikhiwiki people don't even know Punjabi. Pathetic.

Sikh Sangat's even worse.

But for a non-Punjabi like myself, all i'm getting are these websites so i'm getting only one side of the story. I have seen no Sikhs address Babber Khalsa and other groups' crimes. The only ones that have been debunked are Bhindranwale. Air India being an 'intelligence fault' doesn't cut it with me as terrorism is something where you are guilty until proven innocent

Christians are not meant to worship idols but Mother Mary and Jesus statues are aplenty in Catholicism and Orthodoxy. These Churches are the 'true' Churches but they have idols and worship them. So it seems a case of double standards that a Hindu can marry a Sikh even though Sikhs say they aren't Hindu, and they can marry Buddhists even though many Buddhists are atheist, but Abrahamics are a no-no

@Aupmanyav @MV @Jaskaran


My Hindu friend from Punjab says Sikhs believe in Baba Balak Nath. How did I FINALLY find it? I googled 'proud to be Hindu'

Are Baba Balak Nath followers the same as Ravidas? I assume Ravidas Sikhs and Balak Nath followers are Sanatan Sikhs

 

[Aupmanyav]

It's pretty prejudice if a Hindu can marry a Dharmic but not an Abrahamic if Sikhs do not like idolatry!!

Why try? You would not be able to understand. It is not that Hindus do not marry Abrahamics, but generally it is not welcomed, I personally would not like that. As for Sikhs, whatever their ways are, most are nice, they are ours, of this land. Zoroastrians are our Aryan brothers. No problem.

 

[Aupmanyav]

So you're saying charges were dropped due to poor monitoring of the situation?

I really don't see what the point of that quote was. I'm just pointing out that if everyone thinks Bhindranwale wasn't that bad after all, why are these other guys blacklisted by the rest of the world if Bhindranwale himself was actually a 'good guy'.

That is what happened and that is why that person apologized for Canadian government.

I said I do not know about Sant Bhinderanwale. I think he was tricked first by Indira Gandhi and then by separatist Sikhs. Perhaps unfortunate that he had to die. These other guys are failed terrorists.

We do not have any problem with Sikhs in India. If the terrorists come again, we will deal with them.

 

[Aupmanyav]

WTH? I went to the Sikhiwiki site (after googling your quote) and it put ("b**tards") in parentheses after "Loon Haram." As far as I know, lUN harAmI (ਲੂਣ ਹਰਾਮ&#2624 means traitor, not "b**tards." It's still offensive, but it's odd that the Sikhiwiki people don't even know Punjabi. Pathetic.

Descending to their level. Not right. Loon Haram is as bad as b**tards.

 

[ronki23]

Why try? You would not be able to understand. It is not that Hindus do not marry Abrahamics, but generally it is not welcomed, I personally would not like that. As for Sikhs, whatever their ways are, most are nice, they are ours, of this land. Zoroastrians are our Aryan brothers. No problem.

So you imply the culture of India makes no sense! Is it because Christians and Muslims were expansionists and Zoroastrians and Dharmics weren't. Or is it because Christians are associated with white people and Muslims associated with Pakistanis (actually it should be Arabs but I assume Indians acted like this before partition)

And re. Air India, the USA apprehended Al Qaeda members and the UK went after Gaddafi when we had our airlines bombed but Canada lets them go free due to a lack of evidence even though other countries wouldn't do that???

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Descending to their level. Not right. Loon Haram is as bad as b**tards.

Nonsense, it means someone who is ungrateful or treacherous, as I explained before. Also, the phrase lUN harAmI was part of the aNga that the sikhiwiki people quoted, I'm just clarifying that they translated it incorrectly.

@Aupmanyav @MV @Jaskaran


My Hindu friend from Punjab says Sikhs believe in Baba Balak Nath. How did I FINALLY find it? I googled 'proud to be Hindu'

Are Baba Balak Nath followers the same as Ravidas? I assume Ravidas Sikhs and Balak Nath followers are Sanatan Sikhs

Wow, you know more about sikhism/punjAbi history than most sikhs I know, lol. Anyway, ravIdAssia-s and bAlak nAth followers are different. Usually those sikhs are followers of shri chaND jI, who is said to be an avatAra of sidh bAbA bAlak nAth (I think). ravidAssia-s differ from regular sikhs in that they don't consider the granth sAhib to be the final guru, but instead consider other people, like guru ravidAs to be the final guru (I think the same is the case with [b/v]AlmIki-s and kabIr panthI-s, but not completely sure). Also, most ravidAssia-s are chamAr-s (not all) whereas most sikhs are jaTT-s.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Also, most ravidAssia-s are chamAr-s (not all) whereas most sikhs are jaTT-s.

Yes, Jas. They translated it correctly. But both the abuses are enough to bring out the swords. As for jatis, there are many among sikhs, though they officially deny it. Sikh Castes

 

[ronki23]

Nonsense, it means someone who is ungrateful or treacherous, as I explained before. Also, the phrase lUN harAmI was part of the aNga that the sikhiwiki people quoted, I'm just clarifying that they translated it incorrectly.

Wow, you know more about sikhism/punjAbi history than most sikhs I know, lol. Anyway, ravIdAssia-s and bAlak nAth followers are different. Usually those sikhs are followers of shri chaND jI, who is said to be an avatAra of sidh bAbA bAlak nAth (I think). ravidAssia-s differ from regular sikhs in that they don't consider the granth sAhib to be the final guru, but instead consider other people, like guru ravidAs to be the final guru (I think the same is the case with [b/v]AlmIki-s and kabIr panthI-s, but not completely sure). Also, most ravidAssia-s are chamAr-s (not all) whereas most sikhs are jaTT-s.

What part were you referring to?

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Yes, Jas. They translated it correctly. But both the abuses are enough to bring out the swords. As for jatis, there are many among sikhs, though they officially deny it. Sikh Castes

Both abuses? Wait, what are you talking about? If it was just harAmI, then yes, I agree. However, lUN harAmI (ਲੂਣ ਹਰਾਮ&#2624 means the same thing that namak harAm does in urdu or hindI (i.e. ungrateful person/traitor). In fact, it's pretty much a direct translation, as lUN (ਲੂ&#2595 is the punjAbi word for salt [compare with lUN (લૂ&#2723 in gujarAtI, lUN (लू&#2339 in mArwARI/rAjasthAnI, lavaNa (लव&#2339 in sAMskR^it and many dialects of hindI [avadhI, bhojpurI, bAghelI, etc], labaNa (লব&#2467 in bA~NglA, and other similar words for salt in Indian languages], whereas namak (नमक/نم&#1705 is the hindI/urdu word for salt (originally from the farsi word نمک, I think). I would assume you knew that lUN means salt in punjAbI, 'cause you're kashmIrI and the kashmIrI word for salt, nUn, is derived from the punjAbI word, . Also, I don't think that guru nAnak dev jI (who I'm pretty sure that verse is attributed to) would use that word if he meant it in referring to "b**tard," nor would it be permittible to say in the granth sAhib. Then again, the sikh guru-s didn't speak mAjhi punjAbI (the dialect of punjAbI I'm familiar with), they spoke sant bhAShA, so I might be wrong, lol. Also, I know that some sikhs engage in caste-discrimination, it's not some sort of revelation or something, .
Edit: I just realized that you may have thought I meant lan harAmI (ਲਨ ਹਰਾਮ&#2624, i.e. pe*** ba**ard, instead (thats why you thought they were two insults), lol.
BTW: I don't they would say it aloud in this shabad if it actually meant what the sikhIwiki people think:
[youtube]z55sssCZEnE[/youtube]

 

[Aupmanyav]

Correction: It was a wrong translation. Forgot to put 'in' before 'correct' in my post. It was a simple as that. You need not tell me about 'lun', we have Luni river and Lunkaransar from where I come. and 'Lavanya', 'Namkeeniyat'. And 'Lavana Bhaskar Churna' too.

 

[ronki23]

Went to my local Gurudwara today- by local I mean the only Gurudwara I can access as the one at University was my original

Uncleji didn't like I took my own water at Langar; he says 'this is not your house and we are like beggars so we must ask' he said next time I shouldn't do that and seemed serious but he thumbed me up

But I was told online and at my previous Gurudwara that it's ok to take tea/water ourselves. I remember at the original one it was embarrassing I served myself as the old lady said 'no,no,no you no take, I give'

I wanted to go to the Gurudwara 2 minutes down the road later on for dinner as I went for lunch but I was too scared in case this dude went there himself; same reason I didn't go for 'seconds' down the road.
Plus I was paranoid the CCTV was linked to the other one

I thought water is ok to take as my former didn't mind. Feel like I shouldn't go anytime soon and feel alienated from the Sikhs as this is the second time it happened.Again he thumbed me up though (even though he was serious)

OTHERWISE

I went to my Hindu Mandir (which I HAVE been to and know the etiquette) and lo nd behold, we have 3-4 pictures of Guru Nanak and 1-2 pictures of the other 9 gurus. We have Jesus, Mahabur and Buddha too.
Sanatan Mandir.

I guess that's a bad thing according to Sikhs ( though Sikhs hate the idea of Hindu deities in their Gurudwaras more).

What do Sikhs think of Nihangs as Nihangs believe in Shiva (their chand tora) and Durga (Dasam Granth) and Hanuman/Raam (well, these 2 are referenced by that awesome old guy in the video a few posts back)
And Sikhs believe in Baba Balak Nath?

Dara SINGH played Hanuman so assume Sanathan Sikhs were the true Sikhs but84 alienated than?