Confused about Sikhism/Hinduism differences

[Aupmanyav]

. Enjoy your experiences.

 

[ronki23]

. Enjoy your experiences.

I thought it's ok to take liquids. They can't serve you water unless they give the cup

At my old place liquid was ok

And what do Sikhs say of Nihangs and Sri Chand Ji/Baba Balak Nath?

Nihangs did the hard work for Sikh forces and Nihang Singhs believe in Hindu Gods. Nidar Singh is an example though some dispute this.

Guru Nanak's own son chose Hinduism over Sikhi; well, 'over' as in he believed in both

 

[Sb1995]

Which Hindu mandir is this with photos Guru Nanak, Jesus and the 9 Gurus????

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

I thought it's ok to take liquids. They can't serve you water unless they give the cup

At my old place liquid was ok

Yeah, it's a but weird for him to make that "this is not your house, etc." comment. I could understand if you were trying to take prashAd out of the bowl, but at langar time, giving the food is considered sevA, so one who's giving shouldn't reprimand the one asking, even if he/she does make a small mistake. Well, at least he wasn't rude about it, right?

Which Hindu mandir is this with photos Guru Nanak, Jesus and the 9 Gurus????

I was going to ask that too, but figured that it was one of the universalist kinds...

 

[ronki23]

Yeah, it's a but weird for him to make that "this is not your house, etc." comment. I could understand if you were trying to take prashAd out of the bowl, but at langar time, giving the food is considered sevA, so one who's giving shouldn't reprimand the one asking, even if he/she does make a small mistake. Well, at least he wasn't rude about it, right?

I was going to ask that too, but figured that it was one of the universalist kinds...

Nobody was serving Langar- I was served food, ate and got up to get more water and he was sitting down and told me not to do that again and lectured me. He was strict and stern but also gave thumbs up. Still not comfortable going soon - plus we had a Gurudwara literally 2 mins away and I was too paranoid to go in case he turned up there too

 

[ronki23]

Which Hindu mandir is this with photos Guru Nanak, Jesus and the 9 Gurus????

Sanatan Mandir but the pictures are donations by temple goers (usually in loving memory)

I'm sure I saw a pseudo Sikh there as he wore a beanie even inside Mandir, did a kneeling prayer and had kara

 

[Sb1995]

strange..what city is this in?

 

[ronki23]

strange..what city is this in?

Southampton. Is it not a 'proper' mandir like the Gurudwara I used to go to while studying (apparently due to langar time inconsistency)

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yeah, it's a but weird for him to make that "this is not your house, etc." comment.

I would not mind that. I would reply 'yes, babaji, I know it is not my house'. Why drink water during the meal? You can have it after the meal. Getting up during a meal means disrespect to God Almighty who provided you the meal. Getting up would mean end of the meal for a brahmin too, 'ek asana', one sitting. I think providing glasses would mean washing more things later.

I'm sure I saw a pseudo Sikh there as he wore a beanie even inside Mandir, did a kneeling prayer and had kara

Why a pseudo Sikh? There was an image of Sri Guru Nanak ji (not an idol) and other gurus too, and he was bowing to them. 'Ek Onkar'.

 

[ronki23]

I would not mind that. I would reply 'yes, babaji, I know it is not my house'. Why drink water during the meal? You can have it after the meal. Getting up during a meal means disrespect to God Almighty who provided you the meal. Getting up would mean end of the meal for a brahmin too, 'ek asana', one sitting. I think providing glasses would mean washing more things later.Why a pseudo Sikh? There was an image of Sri Guru Nanak ji (not an idol) and other gurus too, and he was bowing to them. 'Ek Onkar'.

I finished eating my food and he didn't like it. At the other Gurudwara they didn't mind

And the Sikh at the mandir was praying to Durga and (if I remember correctly) Rama,Sita, Hanuman and Lakhhman.
The mandir (from left to right) had 5 areas from right to left: Vishnu and Lakhsmi, Krishna and Radha, Durga. I'm not 100% certain on the extreme left and right but the Sikh was at the right praying to Durga for sure and maybe Rama Sita, Hanuman and Lakhhman. But i'm not sure.
The pictures were on the walls surrounding and were donations.
I call him a pseudo Sikh as he was not wearing a turban but his head was covered and he wore kara. But he may well just be Hindu Punjabi.

Which brings me on to Sanatan Sikhs; if Guru Nanak's own son chose Hinduism alongside Sikhi, and if the Nihangs believe in Hindu Gods and wear Shiva crescent (though the Nihangs i'm basing it on are that old dude with the awesome turban and the Sanatan Shastar Vidiya instructor), why do Sikhs disregard links to Hinduism (and the Sri Guru Granth Sahib says Hindu Gods do exist but they are not at the level of Waheguru but this still means they have purposes).


I'm also sure my older posts weren't addressed e.g. Baba Balak Nath and the links between 'good guy' Bhindranwale and the Canadian Khalistanis and the Sikhs that killed Hindus in the 80s (which Sikh forums have not addressed though I wouldn't go on them as i'm not a Sikh)

 

[ronki23]

Both quotes come from Sikh awareness

If Sikhs and Hindus are two separate religions, why is it more than one of the Gurus' sons have chosen the path of Hinduism? It's no coincidence

Which brings it all back; how can the Sikhs can Hindus 'stupid' and mock the mythos when so many Sikh Gurus' sons chose Hinduism?

What do Sikhs say regarding this as even Nihangs worship Hindu deities

It is a historical fact that all the Gurus loved and respected Baba Siri Chand ji. Guru Amar Das ji gave his eldest son, Baba Mohan ji to serve Baba Siri Chand ji. Guru Hargobind Sahib offered his son, Baba Gurditta, the father of Guru Harkrishan ji (7th Guru) to be Baba Siri Chand ji's devotee and successor. Baba Siri Chand ji gave the name "Amritsar" that is used today to the city that had been called Ramdaspur. And the place where Guru Arjan Dev ji waited daily for his meetings with Baba Siri Chand ji and his resting place are still marked by the historical sites of Thamb Sahib and Manji Sahib at the village of Barath. Babaji also gave water from his baoli (spring) for the Sarovar (sacred pool) at Tarn Taran.

Udasi panth is an order of Sikhs which was founded by the elder son of Guru Nanak, Baba Sri Chand. The term Udas means to wander. The foundation of this samprdai was laid by Guru Nanak Dev Ji when he went travelling around the world and preaching against false worship and spreading the true religion – the religion of Naam. After Guru Ji came back to Kartarpur to settle down he handed over this mission of wandering and spreading true religion to his eldest son Sri Chand. After the Guruship passed to Bhai Lehna – Guru Angad, Baba Sri Chand left to continue this mission. This he did with great zeal, and took the teachings of Guru Nanak all over India and into Afghanistan. There is a big Gurdwara in Kabul to commemorate Baba Ji’s visit there. It is sometimes said that Baba Sri Chand did not obey his father, and this is why he was not made the next Guru but this is not true. The Gurgaddi was always given on merit. In Guru Nanak’s tests Bhai Lehna always came first. Baba Sri Chand composed the Arta in praise of his father and Guru, Guru Nanak. This is a much overlooked fact. Baba Sri Chand had no other Guru than Guru Nanak. Udasis consider themselves the followers of Guru Nanak and his successor Gurus. However during the time of the 2nd and 3rd Guru, Baba Sri Chand and his followers stayed away from the Guru’s Darbar. Baba Sri Chand visited the 4th Guru Ramdas at Amritsar and was defeated by his humility, and bowed to him. The Udasi panth from this point became an integral part of the Sikh panth. Guru Hargobind visited Baba Sri Chand at Kartarpur (Pakistan), and gave his son Baba Gurditta, to become the first disciple of Baba Sri Chand from among the close relations of the Sikh Gurus. After this, Guru Hargobind sent the Udasis into the hills in eastern and northern Panjab to spread Sikhism. They also offered their services to Guru Gobind Singh and were permitted to take part in the battle at Bhangani in 1688 AD. There were 4 initial chapters of Udasis, and a further 6 chapters where initiated by the later Gurus, totalling 10 chapters of the Udasis. At this point there was little difference between the Sikhs and Udasis. The differences were the uniform, as the Udasis were exempt from wearing the Sikh uniform of the 5 k’s although they were Kesadhari. The Udasis also did not marry, or hold any property. Apart from this they had firm conviction in the 10 Gurus and Guru Granth Sahib Ji. In the post Guru Gobind Singh period, when Sikhs were being persecuted the Udasis became custodians of Gurdwaras and could preserve Sikhism as its zealous preachers since they were spared persecution, as they did not wear the symbols of Sikhs. In the darkest days of Sikh history these selfless Udasi Sikhs kept the torch of Sikhism burning.
Today in Sikhism there is little place for the Udasis. This was not always the case. Prior to the period of the Singh Sabha movement (the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries), the Udasi panth enjoyed considerable prestige, under the Sikh Gurus, and then the Sikh rulers of the Punjab. The eclipse of asceticism in general and of the Udasis in particular reflects the convictions of the Tat Khalsa. This was due to the moral and spiritual decline of the Udasis. They began to treat Gurdwaras as personal property and in order to solicit larger donations began to allow idol worship and other non-Sikh practices. They even went so far as to install idols in the Golden Temple and other places like Tarn Taran and Nankana Sahib so as to encourage the Hindus to worship there. Their control of the Gurdwaras ended when their activities were no longer tolerated by the Sikhs. The Sikhs went to confront the Udasis after a Sikh revealed how his 13 year old daughter had been raped by the Udasis at Nankana Sahib. This was one of many incidents involving the Udasis and their treatment of devotees. At the holy place of Tarn Taran the Udasis used to keep their liquor cool by keeping it in the Amrit sarovar. At Tarn Taran Sahib also the Udasis drowned a 10 year old boy in the sarovar, and raped his older sister. His parents were threatened with death if they complained. The Udasis introduced dancing girls and prostitution in the Gurdwaras they controlled. Because they were protected by the government of the time, they were not afraid of the wrath of the Sikhs. But after the parents of the young girl who was raped at Nankana Sahib went to a meeting of Sikh sympathisers, the Sikhs decided to take prompt action, no matter what the consequences. They marched to Nankana Sahib to free the Gurdwara from the clutches of the non-believers. The turning-point of the campaign came when the Udasi Mahant of Nankana Sahib caused the massacre of a large group of Sikhs, an event that branded all Udasis as the enemies of the Khalsa. After this the Udasi way was banished to the outer fringes of the Sikh Panth with many Sikhs refusing to accept them as their co-religionists. Their lifestyle was by this time very different from that of the traditional Udasis. They had completely left the mission that Guru Nanak had started and that Baba Sri Chand had strengthened.
Once the Udasis were relieved of the Gurdwaras they began to re-write history by claiming that the Udasi panth was not started by Guru Nanak or Baba Sri Chand, but had started from Bhagwan Shiv Ji. They claimed the Baba Sri Chand had become an Udasi, he had not started it nor had Guru Nanak. Even now generally the Udasis will claim that the Udasi panth started way before Baba Sri Chand. They have their own places of worship which they call Akharas. In the Akharas they perform all the traditional worship as Sikhs do, reading Guru Granth Sahib Ji and deg, doing chaur, langar etc. But they have retained the Hindu practices that their predecessors had started such as worshipping idols and doing arti with lamps etc. The amazing thing is that the Udasis claim to be very versed in the scriptures of the Sikhs, where it says time and time again do not worship idols, and the true arti is that of Naam. But they still practice worship which the Guru Granth Sahib says is worthless. When they are asked about this they will claim that these are ancient practices that started before Sikhi. This is a pathetic answer. But unfortunately the Udasi panth has taken a very strong Hindu lean. Most of the Udasi are more versed in Hindu scriptures than Sikh scriptures. Manmat has taken over this samprdai. Neither Guru Nanak Dev Ji nor Baba Sri Chand performed any idol worship, or arti with lamps.
In the historical meeting of Anandpur Sahib in 1973, the Sikh panth agreed that the status of the Udasi panth should be reinstated and from that time on they have again been accepted as part of the Sikh nation. They have many of their own centres around India including one at the Golden Temple, where they are regularly seen. The Udasis form less than 1% of the Sikh panth. The Udasis still perform idol worship although Guru Nanak and the Guru Granth Sahib forbid this. Also they look on Guru Nanak as an incarnation of Vishnu, and Baba Sri Chand as an incarnation of Shiv Ji, and Guru Nanak's youngest son Lakhmi Das as the incarnation of Brahma. This is not in line with the teachings of Sikhism.
From once being the foremost preachers of Sikhi, and the protectors of the Gurdwaras when the panth was passing through terrible times, it is so sad to see that the Udasi have come to the state that they are.

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

The Sikhs went to confront the Udasis after a Sikh revealed how his 13 year old daughter had been raped by the Udasis at Nankana Sahib. This was one of many incidents involving the Udasis and their treatment of devotees. At the holy place of Tarn Taran the Udasis used to keep their liquor cool by keeping it in the Amrit sarovar. At Tarn Taran Sahib also the Udasis drowned a 10 year old boy in the sarovar, and raped his older sister. His parents were threatened with death if they complained. The Udasis introduced dancing girls and prostitution in the Gurdwaras they controlled.

That is some really strange and evil stuff, worse behavior than vAmAchAra followers...perhaps they can be considered a form of "tAntrika" sikhism 'cause it seems so unorthodox, lol...

 

[ronki23]

That is some really strange and evil stuff, worse behavior than vAmAchAra followers...perhaps they can be considered a form of "tAntrika" sikhism 'cause it seems so unorthodox, lol...

It seems no coincidence that the Sons of the Gurus became Hindu Udaisis, because several Gurus' sons did this.

Yet the internet has an overwhelming number of Sikhs insisting there is no links to Hinduism and these Gurus sons are wrong/an outlier

The Hindus I know insist Sikhs are Hindus due to mentioning Ram,Shiva and Durga in their prayers and following Diwali and Rakhi but the Sikhs and even Rehat Maryada say no.

Which is right? If the Nihangs worship Hindu Gods (Baba Balli Singh and Nidar Singh) and several sons of the Gurus do so, there must be a reason.

Perhaps it's like the Judaism-Islam rift (based on land) or the Christianity-Judaism rift (though I don't think Sikhs view Bhindranwale to the extent Christians view Jesus).

Very confusing

 

[Sb1995]

Just wondering, I''ve never found out the answer to this. Why do some of the Sikh Gurus have Hindu names/Hindu God's in their name. Why didn't they change them? Guru Ram Das, Guru Har Krishan etc

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is simple. Sri Guru Nanak was born in a Hindu family. Other gurus also were born in families that were once Hindu. Till British times the two religions were closely related, much closer than today. The 'singh' appellation began at the instruction of Sri Guru Gobind Singh to foster militant spirit against injustice. Prior to that even Sri Guru Gobind Singh's name too, was Gobind Rai.

 

[Breathe]

Just wondering, I''ve never found out the answer to this. Why do some of the Sikh Gurus have Hindu names/Hindu God's in their name. Why didn't they change them? Guru Ram Das, Guru Har Krishan etc

In a way, why would they? The Sikh gurus were very big on the unity of God, and so changing their names to something that wasn't Hindu would have the effect of saying that they were not worshipping the same God, as though there was something wrong with the use of Hindu terminology. By keeping it, I believe they showed a powerful message of the unity of God that transcends religions.

 

[Poeticus]

Just wondering, I''ve never found out the answer to this. Why do some of the Sikh Gurus have Hindu names/Hindu God's in their name. Why didn't they change them? Guru Ram Das, Guru Har Krishan etc

That is simple. Sri Guru Nanak was born in a Hindu family. Other gurus also were born in families that were once Hindu. Till British times the two religions were closely related, much closer than today. The 'singh' appellation began at the instruction of Sri Guru Gobind Singh to foster militant spirit against injustice. Prior to that even Sri Guru Gobind Singh's name too, was Gobind Rai.

In a way, why would they? The Sikh gurus were very big on the unity of God, and so changing their names to something that wasn't Hindu would have the effect of saying that they were not worshipping the same God, as though there was something wrong with the use of Hindu terminology. By keeping it, I believe they showed a powerful message of the unity of God that transcends religions.

The notion that the valiant Sikh Guru-s were also
culturally/dharmically Indic seems to escape us.
That's practically the most certified or rational
explanation as to why they kept their "Hinduaic"
names. Countless Sikh males have names such as
"Dharmender", "Mohinder", "Dalipinder", etc.
Etymologically, all these three have "Indra" in them.
There was no reasonable need for them to drop their
cultural naming system.

ps - Welcome back, Breathe. I hope you've been well. ​

 

[Breathe]

ps - Welcome back, Breathe. I hope you've been well. ​

Thanks, man. I've been alright.
Tired, though.

I lasted longer than a week, didn't I?

 

[ronki23]

6 months have flown by (well, kind of, sometimes we go a month without forum posts).

A bias piece of work? Any sort of emotion in text makes it more bias to me. I'd rather you read them

http://www.gurmat.info/sms/smspublications/SikhReligionAndHinduism.pdf

see pages:

'Some facts about Krishna'- Krishna's polygamy, his death, how he 'cheated' to help Bhim and Arjun win,etc.

'Some facts about Raam'- Ram and Lakhsman did things for their own gain e.g. helping Surgriv, Raam didn't want Sita initially, they expelled Sita, Ravana was only looking out for his sister,his sister loved Lakshman

'Ramayan' - Written in 400BC but now apparently 5AD due to references to Alexander the Great and Buddhism.

'Mahabharat'-standardised only after 1966

73-74,81 (where it says Vedas has sections promoting violence and division and Indra was not a good God),

Limitations and fallacies of Hindu Gods 157-161,164-165

Guru Gobind Singh and Durga Worship being a new addition to the Dasam Granth Sahib (which is already secular) 271-274

And a friend I know online said that Sri Chand Ji's choice of Hinduism is nothing to do with the Sikh Gurus and the links I posted regarding the Udaisi may just be claiming two other Gurus' sons chose Hinduism and may not have done so. And the Nihangs only wear the Shiva-Durga symbol but do not believe in them literally (those who do, like Nidar Singh, are criticised by the Nihangs).

and this. Inflated figures/overhype?

http://www.sikhworld.co.uk/page31.html

 

[Aupmanyav]

Let people believe what they will. It is a free world. I don't think the Guru would have appreciated that.