Confused about Sikhism/Hinduism differences

[ronki23]

Not to mention, that trying to eliminate a group of people negotiating for their rights is fascism; doing it on a holy day (when any other day could've been chosen with fewer pilgrims) shows there was malice in the attack

Doesn't explain WHY Indira Gandhi didn't want to pass Anandpur Sahib/allow Punjabi to be the national language

Though I'm unsure why Bhindranwale hid in the Golden Temple as he must have known pilgrims would've come-I'm sure he could've set up a base elsewhere

 

[Aupmanyav]

Punjabi is a national language. They used pilgrims as hostages. Negotiations are not done with guns in hand. The were secessionists, and for that India and its army has the answer, whether in Punjab or in Kashmir. Why are you trying? You would never understand. Talk of something else.

"Punjabi is one of the languages recognized by the Indian constitution at the state level in Punjab, Chandigarh, Haryana, Delhi, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and West Bengal. There is no such recognition in Pakistan. According to Dr Manzur Ejaz, "In Central Punjab, Punjabi is amazingly still neither an official language of the province nor is it used as a medium of education at any level in Pakistan. There are only two daily newspapers published in Punjabi in the Central areas of Punjab. Only a few monthly literary magazines constitute Punjabi press in Pakistan." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_language#Official_recognition

Punjabi Newspaper List: Daily Ajit, Sanjh Savera, Sikh Virsa, Yugantar Punjab, Punjab express, Ajit Jalandhar, Jagbani, Punjab Kesari, Parvasi, Punjab Tribune Online, Punjab Mail Online, Sher E Punjab. http://www.allindianewspapers.com/India-newspaper/punjabi-newspaper.htm#.U5awe_mSySo

 

[ronki23]

Punjabi is a national language. They used pilgrims as hostages. Negotiations are not done with guns in hand. The were secessionists, and for that India and its army has the answer, whether in Punjab or in Kashmir. Why are you trying? You would never understand. Talk of something else.

"Punjabi is one of the languages recognized by the Indian constitution at the state level in Punjab, Chandigarh, Haryana, Delhi, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and West Bengal. There is no such recognition in Pakistan. According to Dr Manzur Ejaz, "In Central Punjab, Punjabi is amazingly still neither an official language of the province nor is it used as a medium of education at any level in Pakistan. There are only two daily newspapers published in Punjabi in the Central areas of Punjab. Only a few monthly literary magazines constitute Punjabi press in Pakistan." Punjabi language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Punjabi Newspaper List: Daily Ajit, Sanjh Savera, Sikh Virsa, Yugantar Punjab, Punjab express, Ajit Jalandhar, Jagbani, Punjab Kesari, Parvasi, Punjab Tribune Online, Punjab Mail Online, Sher E Punjab. Punjabi Newspaper | Punjabi Newspapers In India

So you agree that it was right for them to go in all guns blazing? And Bhindranwale was indifferent toward Khalistan; only upon his death did the movement accelerate


They didn't warn that they were coming in, and if it was a hostage situation, why didn't they say they had hostages? Why did they block amnesty international? Why was there no media allowed? Why an electricity blackout?

https://youtube.com/watch?v=JXqH0AFBYkU

There's another documentary if you type in '1984 documentary' in YouTube but I've not seen that one

Operations Black Thunder and further Operations were not as catastrophic

And the most important thing, if they were 'terrorists', why is there an international remembrance march in UK,USA,Canda,Australia; to petition for this to be considered a genocide?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The situation demanded it. No, the movement fizzled out after Operation Blue Star. The high casualities in Indian Army were due to the security of Harminder Sahib itself. This happens in Kashmir too, when Hazrat Bal was at risk. To save the mosque, the terrorists were allowed to escape. They burnt down the dargah at Chharari Sharif. Do you know anything whatsoever about happenings in India? http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...mir-information.com/arunshourie/article1.html, http://arunshourie.wordpress.com/category/charar-e-sharif/.

"I returned to Amritsar in the first press party taken to the Golden Temple complex after the operation. I was deeply saddened by what I saw. The Golden Temple itself was in tact, scarred only by a few bullet holes. Although defenders had fired from the Temple, the army had clearly obeyed orders not to fire at it. It’s a great credit to India’s Sikh community, and the country’s multi-religious culture, that the wounds of Operation Blue Star have not gone deeper." Mark Tully, BBC http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...d-on-the-Golden-Temple-ended-in-disaster.html

Amnesty is a Western organization. It has no locus standii in India. We have our own laws and courts. Foreign people are not going to tell us what to do. Let the ex-patriot Sikhs do whatever they want to do in other countries. We are least bothered by it. Sikhs are happy in India and we are happy about it. They rule Punjab, they had a prime minister till just 15 days ago. They still have the Chief of Army. There is no office where they are not represented.

 

[ronki23]

The situation demanded it. No, the movement fizzled out after Operation Blue Star. The high casualities in Indian Army were due to the security of Harminder Sahib itself. This happens in Kashmir too, when Hazrat Bal was at risk. To save the mosque, the terrorists were allowed to escape. They burnt down the dargah at Chharari Sharif. Do you know anything whatsoever about happenings in India? Kashmir Information Network (KIN): A Paradise Turned into Hell, charar-e-sharif | Arun Shouries Articles.

"I returned to Amritsar in the first press party taken to the Golden Temple complex after the operation. I was deeply saddened by what I saw. The Golden Temple itself was in tact, scarred only by a few bullet holes. Although defenders had fired from the Temple, the army had clearly obeyed orders not to fire at it. It’s a great credit to India’s Sikh community, and the country’s multi-religious culture, that the wounds of Operation Blue Star have not gone deeper." Mark Tully, BBC http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...d-on-the-Golden-Temple-ended-in-disaster.html

Amnesty is a Western organization. It has no locus standii in India. We have our own laws and courts. Foreign people are not going to tell us what to do. Let the ex-patriot Sikhs do whatever they want to do in other countries. We are least bothered by it. Sikhs are happy in India and we are happy about it. They rule Punjab, they had a prime minister till just 15 days ago. They still have the Chief of Army. There is no office where they are not represented.

You completely ignored that the following paragraph says,


'But there were gaping holes in the Akal Takht, black stains from the fire which had broken out, and rubble everywhere. The floors were carpeted with empty cartridges. On the parikrama – or pavement – around the complex were blood stains. The library had been burnt. Bhindranwale’s was one of 42 bodies found inside. The Indian army had suffered 331 casualties.'


And you say that the separatists took the pilgrims hostage; the army could have entered any other day when there were fewer pilgrims

And the Sikhs who shot Indira Gandhi beg to differ; they were upset by the civilian death toll- 492 dead civilians with unofficial reports saying 5000 dead

Then after Gandhi's assassination 3000 Sikhs in Delhi alone were killed;add another 2000 and there is the 5000 dead in Oct-Nov 1984. Again the unofficial reports say 20,000 were killed


I don't understand your viewpoint Aupmanyav, you say INC is to blame for India's corruption, and they appease minorities, and that Bhindranwale's a good guy. But you say INC did no wrong to the Sikhs and that all of India's problems are from Pakistan, including Khalistanis

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RRHJ_2Ad-Gc

(I'm not a truther)

Still don't get why Bhindranwale chose Amritsar to hide and store ammunitions, or why Gandhi wanted him dead. There's no answer for each of their actions as both saw it negatively impact the pilgrims


And the SGPC seemed to standardise the Rehat Maryada; what ifSikh 'rules' are based on their perception of Sikhi? Sikhism may have been more closely linked to Hinduism before the 1950'sRehat Maryada, after all the Udaisis took care of the Gurudwaras
I hear Harmandir Sahib and Gurudwaras had Vishnu murtis and paintings of Vishnu and Shiva too

 

[Aupmanyav]

You completely ignored that the following paragraph says,

'But there were gaping holes in the Akal Takht, black stains from the fire which had broken out, and rubble everywhere. The floors were carpeted with empty cartridges. On the parikrama – or pavement – around the complex were blood stains. The library had been burnt. Bhindranwale’s was one of 42 bodies found inside. The Indian army had suffered 331 casualties.'

And the Sikhs who shot Indira Gandhi beg to differ; they were upset by the civilian death toll- 492 dead civilians with unofficial reports saying 5000 dead.

I don't understand your viewpoint Aupmanyav, you say INC is to blame for India's corruption, and they appease minorities, and that Bhindranwale's a good guy. But you say INC did no wrong to the Sikhs and that all of India's problems are from Pakistan, including Khalistanis.

I hear Harmandir Sahib and Gurudwaras had Vishnu murtis and paintings of Vishnu and Shiva too

Yes, Akal Takht was destroyed and later rebuilt. It was a serious uprising and military action, and tanks were used. It is well known and I have not overlooked that. (Mark Tully article has pictures of the destroyed Akal Takht).

Army was ordered and entered on a day when many terrorists were in the temple complex. Of course, Indira Gandhi was assasinated by the sikh guards because they were angry about the operation. There would always be claims and counter-claims about how many lives were lost.

INC appeased minorities, but the sikhs (on encouragement from Pakistan) were not satisfied with that. They wanted secession, and this was not possible, therefore, the conflict. Without Pakistan's help there would have been no Sikh unrest. The separatists made Harminder Sahib into a fort and thought that the military would not enter or use tanks to eradicate them. The Indian Army, as professional as it is, did just what was required of it.

I have not found anything about Vishnu and Shiva murties or paintings in Gurudwaras, but I would not be surprised if at one time they were there. The connection between Sikhism and Hinduism is not dead.

 

[ronki23]

Yes, Akal Takht was destroyed and later rebuilt. It was a serious uprising and military action, and tanks were used. It is well known and I have not overlooked that. (Mark Tully article has pictures of the destroyed Akal Takht).

Army was ordered and entered on a day when many terrorists were in the temple complex. Of course, Indira Gandhi was assasinated by the sikh guards because they were angry about the operation. There would always be claims and counter-claims about how many lives were lost.

INC appeased minorities, but the sikhs (on encouragement from Pakistan) were not satisfied with that. They wanted secession, and this was not possible, therefore, the conflict. Without Pakistan's help there would have been no Sikh unrest. The separatists made Harminder Sahib into a fort and thought that the military would not enter or use tanks to eradicate them. The Indian Army, as professional as it is, did just what was required of it.

I have not found anything about Vishnu and Shiva murties or paintings in Gurudwaras, but I would not be surprised if at one time they were there. The connection between Sikhism and Hinduism is not dead.

But as I've stated, Bhindranwale never said he wanted Khalistan, he said he is happy with Sikhs being in India if there were more rights e.g Anandpur Sahib. He said he only wants Khalistan if the rights were not given to the Sikhs

Bhindranwale was used to gain votes from people on fear they voted for Akali Dal Amritsar and demanded Khalistan. So he was originally pro India


But you say Congress appease minorities; are Sikhs not a minority who felt Congress was wronging them hence the need for Bhindranwale to represent them

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, the majority of the Sikhs were satisfied with their lot in India, it is only the separatists who wanted power. Ordinary Sikhs suffered just as much as the Hindus during the insurgency. Once the separatists were decimated, the ordinary Sikhs resumed their peaceful lives with Hindus. And later, Akali Dal and BJP joined hands and rule Punjab today.

 

[ronki23]

No, the majority of the Sikhs were satisfied with their lot in India, it is only the separatists who wanted power. Ordinary Sikhs suffered just as much as the Hindus during the insurgency. Once the separatists were decimated, the ordinary Sikhs resumed their peaceful lives with Hindus. And later, Akali Dal and BJP joined hands and rule Punjab today.

But if the Sikhs were 'satisfied' and did what was 'right', why did Indira Gandhi's bodyguards shoot her? They saw that so many civilians were killed by the army in Blue Star

and Operation Black Thunder I & II proved that they could've stormed the Temple in another manner

also, Bhindranwale was indifferent toward Khalistan so you can't blame him for being a separatist. He wanted the Ananpur Sahib Resolution passed and was installed by Congress to prevent Akali Dal Amristar's Khalistan movement.

So it still doesn't explain why Indira Gandhi didn't want Anandpur Sahib passed, or (more importantly) why she was so heavy handed. Also doesn't explain why Bhindranwale chose Harmandir Sahib to hide.

Anyway, not all separatist movements are bad. India in the 1940s? Palestine? Bangladesh? Tibet?

In Southall/ mini Punjab (UK)

[youtube]azSfPxzwtCE[/youtube]
London Sikh protest June 1984 (Vid 2) - YouTube

[youtube]wTTLg9-pyj0[/youtube]
London Sikh protest June 1984 - YouTube

 

[Aupmanyav]

We will deal with a separatist movement anytime it happens any where in India in a swift and decisive manner. Expatriate Sikh in UK are most welcome to kick or burn effigies. It does not concern India.

 

[Sb1995]

Bhindranwale was a terrorist.

 

[ronki23]

We will deal with a separatist movement anytime it happens any where in India in a swift and decisive manner. Expatriate Sikh in UK are most welcome to kick or burn effigies. It does not concern India.

i don't understand your views Aupmanyav

You dislike the INC and say they are corrupt, yet you say Indira Gandhi did the right thing

You say the Khalistanis are terrorists, yet you say Bhindranwale wasn't a bad guy

You say ISI posed as the Khalistanis but the sword fight on 6/6 was between Sikhs

That documentary I posted on page 45 shows that the army attacked without warning.

How can Indira Gandhi have done the right thing if Operation Black Thunder proved that it could've been handled better. If she did the right thing, why did her own bodyguards shoot her?

 

[ronki23]

Bhindranwale was a terrorist.

And Indira Gandhi was a fascist who destroyed a Holy Complex without warning on a day where there were hundreds of pilgrims

MV/Poeticus kindly provided this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH_-MbgNCQA#t=18

If you know Punjabi you'll understand it~ as I don't but I read the description and comments, it tells us of how it's Congress' fault

Though I don't understand why Gandhi was adamant to pass Anandpur Sahib or give Sikhs their rights.
I also don't understand why Bhindranwale chose Harmandir Sahib if he knew Blue Star was a possibility

Assuming there are divisions in the Khalistan movements if some of them have been accused of training with Al Qaeda while others have been using political channels formally

 

[Aupmanyav]

i don't understand your views Aupmanyav .. If she did the right thing, why did her own bodyguards shoot her?

The bodyguards thought differently. Not everything is black and white. There are many shades of grey in between.

 

[ronki23]

The bodyguards thought differently. Not everything is black and white. There are many shades of grey in between.

Did you watch this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH_-MbgNCQA#t=18

Still doesn't explain why Bhindranwale chose Harmandir Sahib if he knew Blue Star was a possibility
Also doesn't explain why Gandhi was so heavy handed/sent the army in on a religious day without warning. Plus it doesn't tell us why she was adamant to pass Anandpur Sahib

 

[Aupmanyav]

In that case, I will check with Sant Bhinderawale and Indira Gandhi when I go to the other world and let you know all reasons, for and against. So if on a dark August night, if you hear a knock on your door, do not be afraid, open the door, and I will be there with answers for you. Best regards,

Aupmanyav

 

[ronki23]

In that case, I will check with Sant Bhinderawale and Indira Gandhi when I go to the other world and let you know all reasons, for and against. So if on a dark August night, if you hear a knock on your door, do not be afraid, open the door, and I will be there with answers for you. Best regards,

Aupmanyav

Perhaps it'd be easier to do a seance? Plus one would be in hell and other in heaven

Naraka in Hinduism is similar to the Christian Hell, but serves only as a temporary purgatory where the soul is purified of sin by its suffering. In Hindu mythology, Naraka holds many hells,[12] and Yama directs departed souls to the appropriate one. Even elevated Mukti-yogyas and Nitya-samsarins can experience Naraka for expiation of sins.

The idea of Naraka in Sikhism is like the idea of Hell. One's soul, however, is confined to 8.4 million life cycles before taking birth as a human, the point of human life being one where one attains salvation, the salvation being sach khand. The idea of khand comes in multiple levels of such heavens, the highest being merging with God as one. The idea of Hell is like it comes in multiple levels, and hell itself can manifest within human life itself. The Sikh idea of hell is where one is apart from naama and gurus charana (God's lotus feet (abode)).

1984 Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7auoBtycRg

 

[ronki23]

1. The gist of this thread is that Indian Sikhs have no qualms with India but instead with the Congress Party. Some even support Congress. But on the internet there are no sites supporting India or condemning Khalistanis- and India's supposed to be a nation projected to have #3 GDP by 2040???

The vast majority of Sikhs support Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and hate Indira Gandhi. But those who hate Gandhi still support Congress?

2. Sikhs support BJP as they're allied with Akali Dal but at the same time they dislike VHP and Bajrang Dal

Sikhs hate RSS even though the latter helped them in 1984. Why?

Udasi and Nirmala Sikhs show Hinduisation of Sikhism yet Sikhs online hate Hinduisation. But three Gurus sons chose Udaisism

[youtube]WMPAg9fZM1Y[/youtube]
Hinduization of Sikh Faith By RSS - Sikh History - YouTube

and here is a link

Rashtri Sikh Sangat RSS Hinduization

Sikhs fear Hinduization but these pictures show they embrace it as it's in well known Gurudwara

3. Is the only thing that differs Hinduism and Sikhism the Vedas?? If the Vedas defines Hinduism, where did the Hindu deities like Hanuman,Ganesh, Krishna and Rama come from?

How do you explain the quotes talking about Krishna, Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma?

This video sucks but has some good points

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jg0_FNaFV8

4. If Sikhism is a mixture of Hinduism and Islam why do you get Sanatan Sikhs but not 'Mohammedan' Sikhs??

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sikh politicians do not hate Congress. Maninderjeet Singh Bitta, who was injured by sikh separatists and Amrinder Singh of the earstwhile Patilala royal family are Congress parliamentarians. The Delhi Congress is headed by Arvinder Singh Lovely. Don't bring in expatriate Sikhs in the equation.

Congress and Akali Dal received about the same percentage of votes in the 2009 elections, i.e., 34% each. BJP received 10%. Of course, the ground situation is a bit different, BJP has more support in Punjab. Its supporters voted for Akali Dal as the two parties were in a coalition.

Sikhs would dislike BJP, RSS,VHP, and Bajrang Dal, if these would infringe on Sikhism, but they don't do it. They actually support Sikhism.

Rama, Krishna, Durga, Ganesha, Hanuman, are not Vedic deities. They are pre-Aryan Hindu Gods. Aryans migrated to India. That is why they are not mentioned in the Vedas. Modern Hinduism is a mix of Vedic religion and proto-Hinduism.

Sikh ties with Islam are marginal. Sikh ties with Hinduism are much deeper.

I have been trying to answer your questions very patiently but you just do not seem to understand.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In the recently held 2014 General Elections, the party position in Punjab is shown in the graph. Akali Dal and Congress have equal share, i.e., 31%. BJP's share increased due to 'Modi Effect':