Confused about Sikhism/Hinduism differences

[Aupmanyav]

Khalistan. No objection.

The word Khalsa translates to being "Pure/Genuine.”

Why don't you post such things where debate is allowed?

 

[ronki23]

Khalistan. No objection.

The word Khalsa translates to being "Pure/Genuine.”

Why don't you post such things where debate is allowed?

Where is it a debate?

And why don't the mods explain/ give me feedback on the side feedback area without being too 'trigger happy' with closing and deleting threads?

 

[Aupmanyav]

'Rāj karegā khalsā, āki rahe na koy'
(The pure/genuine will rule, no one will be distressed.)

Welcome.

 

[Poeticus]

A much repulsive map, yes, due to its militant undertones (e.g., "10 lakh Hindus" would mean millions of them would have been killed; "Babbar Khalsa Academy" is like someone saying that they attend ISIS University of Arts or Taliban Jihadist Academy).

Plus, the Darbars of Rajasthan and the Jaats of Haryana would never allow it, nor would the folks of UP---especially not UP.

 

[Aupmanyav]

These people are raving mad. And what will the our 2 million (active and reserve) strong military do? Allow them to do this! It is nothing but a fund gulping scheme.

 

[ronki23]

These people are raving mad. And what will the our 2 million (active and reserve) strong military do? Allow them to do this! It is nothing but a fund gulping scheme.

The thing is, Indira Gandhi's bodyguards DID shoot her and one of Bhindranwale's associates was a Sikh army commander

ALTHOUGH Saudi Arabia cracked down on Wahhabist insurgency in the 70s (in Makkah I believe) but they did make the country more religious to prevent this.

I don't know feasibility of Khalistan; yes we know Pakistan would not allow Khalistan to take away Pakistani Punjab but Pakistan MAY know the enemy of the enemy is my friend. Doubt t though as the only non Muslim country they get along with is China

And if it were created, wouldn't India suffer more as they NEED the grains of Punjab? Would Khalistan be able to trade with India or would they be literally stuck between a rock and a hard place

Khalistan is no Israel; there aren't enough Sikhs in USA or Canada to influence the government to arm them against their neighbours

 

[Poeticus]

The thing is, Indira Gandhi's bodyguards DID shoot her and one of Bhindranwale's associates was a Sikh army commander

ALTHOUGH Saudi Arabia cracked down on Wahhabist insurgency in the 70s (in Makkah I believe) but they did make the country more religious to prevent this.

I don't know feasibility of Khalistan; yes we know Pakistan would not allow Khalistan to take away Pakistani Punjab but Pakistan MAY know the enemy of the enemy is my friend. Doubt t though as the only non Muslim country they get along with is China

And if it were created, wouldn't India suffer more as they NEED the grains of Punjab? Would Khalistan be able to trade with India or would they be literally stuck between a rock and a hard place

Khalistan is no Israel; there aren't enough Sikhs in USA or Canada to influence the government to arm them against their neighbours

A sovereign Punjab, an independent country of Khalistan would be in a constant state of unease. It would be open for conquest by either Pakistan or India, especially if the newly established sovereign country was aggressive towards either the two. Secondly, it would be used as a proxy by countries with vested interests in destabilizing India. And India would hardly suffer if Khalistan was created. Grain can be accommodated elsewhere. I can understand the notion of a separate country based on ethno-linguistic realities, but a country founded on theology and acting on matters as a theocracy, if that is what Khalistan would entail ("Khalsa Raj")---that I disagree with. Most theocracies have a brutal track record of human rights violations as well as failing to succeed socially, economically, and politically in the long run.

 

[ronki23]

A sovereign Punjab, an independent country of Khalistan would be in a constant state of unease. It would be open for conquest by either Pakistan or India, especially if the newly established sovereign country was aggressive towards either the two. Secondly, it would be used as a proxy by countries with vested interests in destabilizing India. And India would hardly suffer if Khalistan was created. Grain can be accommodated elsewhere. I can understand the notion of a separate country based on ethno-linguistic realities, but a country founded on theology and acting on matters as a theocracy, if that is what Khalistan would entail ("Khalsa Raj")---that I disagree with. Most theocracies have a brutal track record of human rights violations as well as failing to succeed socially, economically, and politically in the long run.

Boundaries seem ambitious

http://kashmirdiasporaa.blogspot.com/2013/06/23rd-session-of-united-nations-human.html

 

[Poeticus]

Boundaries seem ambitious

http://kashmirdiasporaa.blogspot.com/2013/06/23rd-session-of-united-nations-human.html

The link isn't working. What is it about ?

Also, I came across the following from the blog:

On this day, we should give thanks to our lord, Almighty Allah that he has blessed us with the honour of fasting for him once more.
source

My refutation: The "Kashmir Diaspora Alliance" has a misleading title. It seems to be an advocate for all Kashmiris, but apparently it is only speaking on behalf of Kashmiri Muslims. Also, there are Kashmiri Pundits and other Kashmiri Hindus that reside in the West and elsewhere in the world outside of the geo-political South Asian spectrum. Thus I'd hardly call this source secularly objective.

Shimla agreement signed on July 02, 1972 in Shimla the capital city of the Indian state of Hamichal Pradesh between the government of India and Islamic Republic of Pakistan following the war between the two nations in 1971. This agreement is falling far short of covering the entire scenario; in particular it does not condemn the Indian government for its interference in East Pakistan presently known as Bangladesh. The Indian government divided Muslims in East Pakistan and West Pakistan and created animosity amongst them and not only trained the people of East Pakistan but also provided them with arms and even provided armed combatants. Furthermore, they also murdered those people who sympathized to the cause of a united Pakistan and placed the blame on Pakistan itself. All of these facts are not a part of the Shimla agreement and still the Indian government owes an apology to the Pakistani state for its heinous crime of breaking a nation.
source

My refutation: Not only is the above a wonderful example of [religious] outward-rigorism, but it also fails to take into account that East Pakistan suffered harshly under West Pakistan: mass-rape of East Pakistani women; mass-murder of East Pakistani men; and suppression of East Pakistani, Bengali identity.

Conclusion: This blog represents radical and militant secessionist expressions that have no objective basis in terms of rationality and logic.​

My question to you, Ronki: where in the world do you come across such atrocious pages ?

 

[ronki23]

The link isn't working. What is it about ?

Also, I came across the following from the blog:

My refutation: The "Kashmir Diaspora Alliance" has a misleading title. It seems to be an advocate for all Kashmiris, but apparently it is only speaking on behalf of Kashmiri Muslims. Also, there are Kashmiri Pundits and other Kashmiri Hindus that reside in the West and elsewhere in the world outside of the geo-political South Asian spectrum. Thus I'd hardly call this source secularly objective.



My refutation: Not only is the above a wonderful example of [religious] outward-rigorism, but it also fails to take into account that East Pakistan suffered harshly under West Pakistan: mass-rape of East Pakistani women, mass-murder of East Pakistani men, and suppression of East Pakistani, Bengali identity.

Conclusion: This blog represents radical and militant secessionist expressions that have no objective basis in terms of rationality and logic.​

My question to you, Ronki: where in the world do you come across such atrocious pages ?

Sorry it didn't work

Here are the images:

As for your quotes on the grains provided by Punjab, using economics 101 would the loss of Punjab to Khalistan make grains,etc. more expensive in India as less is supplied so other Indian farmers would hike up their prices from the demand?

And some Khalistan websites say they'd trade with both India and Pakistan and create peace between the 2 nations as they'd be a buffer zone. They say that Czech Republic, Belgium,Switzerland,Luxembourg, Zambia and Zimbabwe function as landlocked countries.

I'd love to PM you about the Middle East though

 

[Poeticus]

Sorry it didn't work

Here are the images:

... snip ...

Haryana ? Rajasthan ? Himachal Pradesh ? Uttar Pradesh ? Dreams are always good; but realism should be primordial. UP would rather have all of India burn than have itself succumb to secessionist approaches. A similar socio-cultural sentiment would apply for both Haryana and Rajasthan, also.

As for your quotes on the grains provided by Punjab, using economics 101 would the loss of Punjab to Khalistan make grains,etc. more expensive in India as less is supplied so other Indian farmers would hike up their prices from the demand?

Not really. An alternative would easily be accommodated. Currently, grain from the Punjab is a convenient reality.

And some Khalistan websites say they'd trade with both India and Pakistan and create peace between the 2 nations as they'd be a buffer zone. They say that Czech Republic, Belgium,Switzerland,Luxembourg, Zambia and Zimbabwe function as landlocked countries.

Those countries function well because they aren't surrounded by crazed spy-agencies that have a horrid track record of giving financial and military aid to radical religionists that have a penchant for storing, housing, and sheltering international criminals that are responsible for the deaths and murders of innocents.

 

[ronki23]

Haryana ? Rajasthan ? Himachal Pradesh ? Uttar Pradesh ? Dreams are always good; but realism should be primordial. UP would rather burn all of India than have itself succumb to secessionist approaches. The same would go for Haryana and Rajasthan.



Not really. An alternative would easily be accommodated. Currently, grain from the Punjab is a convenient reality.



Those countries function well because they aren't surrounded by crazed spy-agencies that have a horrid track record of giving financial and military aid to radical religionists that have a penchant for storing, housing, and shelling international criminals that are responsible for the deaths and murders of innocents.

Laos?Afghanistan? Zimbabwe? They're all landlocked countries too

But one thing I don't really get, not many countries born from separation trade with their former selves do they? Because that may be the case for Khalistan.

Though at the same time, would Pakistan really trade with Khalistan if it were created as they'd see they're not India anymore?

But as shocking as these Khalistan maps look, many Sikhs support this. Every year in the UK we see thousands of Sikhs fill up Trafalgar Square in protest at 1984 and for Khalistan. At every Gurudwara I have been to, we have had entire coaches full of people go to this. Yet they do not look like/ seem like people who have hate in their hearts. They have no issues with a Hindu Gujarati like me visiting and i'm pretty sure they have lots of Hindu Punjabis visiting. Yet they want a Khalistan simply as they feel they want to be treated as equals; a 'young' fellow who was around my age or slightly older was talking to some older Sikhs and said that he's going there because it's his sewa. So I asked him and he told me, 'Have you heard about Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale? Some people say he was a terrorist but if that were so then why was the entire army sent in at Amritsar?'

he had no issue with me being there and the other Sikhs joked 'khakra' 'dhokla' when they heard I was Gujarati.

They certainly don't seem like the type of people who condone bombing flights. Yet both Babber Khalsa and these nice people (including elderly,women and children) hold Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale in high regard. I thought Dr Jagjit Singh Chauhan was the main pioneer of the Khalistan movement anyway. I say on facebook and in public that I don't think Bhindranwale was a bad guy to rile the Indians who let me down in the past.


Still don't get why Bhindranwale chose to hide in Harmandir Sahib if he knew Blue Star was a possibility
and Indira Gandhi did the wrong thing


Otherwise,do Hindus visit Gurudwaras because it's an age-old Punjabi tradition/because Guru Nanak invited Hindus from the beginning? Surely Muslims would do so as well as Sikhism is also influenced by Islam. Strange you get Hinduised Sikhs like the Udasis and not 'Islamic' Sikhs.

(main reason I restarted this thread was my 'experience' [or lack of] from Sikh Sangat)

 

[ronki23]

happy 50th page

 

[Treks]

Sikh Sangat is just one Sikh forum - you can't make assumptions about all Sikhs based on the users of that one (fundamentalist) forum.

Many, many Sikhs want justice, or even acknowledgement, with regard to 1984 and the aftermath. These Sikhs DO NOT necessarily want Khalistan (the territory). The two issues are not necessarily mutually inclusive.

I've not come across any Sikhs (apart from fruity fundy types) who actually want Khalistan as an actual physical place. The Sikhs I've engaged with online and in the real world, who talk about Khalistan, consider it to be a mindset of a worldwide community, and not a physical territory.

Sadly, Sikhi in the Punjab is largely stale and corrupt. Sikhi's shining future is within the diaspora.

This has to be the worlds most wayward thread.

 

[Aupmanyav]

As for your quotes on the grains provided by Punjab, using economics 101 would the loss of Punjab to Khalistan make grains,etc. more expensive in India as less is supplied so other Indian farmers would hike up their prices from the demand?

Punjab produces 20% of Indian wheat. Grain production is likely to increase substantially with the introduction of GM crops. Our wheat granary is Uttar Pradesh with 33%.

p.s.: 20% of the cereals produced in India are wasted. For the last ten years our food stocks have always been generally above the stipulated food security levels. We exported 6.5 million tonnes of wheat in and 10 million tonnes of rice in 2012-13. Where we lag behind is pulses and oil which we purchase from world market. We have the dough (Foreign reserves at more than $300 billion). Don't worry, we are doing reasonably well.

 

[Treks]

happy 50th page

Your ability to keep it going is truly amazing.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Surely Muslims would do so as well as Sikhism is also influenced by Islam.

There was a time when Muslims too joined Sikhism. Bhai Mardana was a Muslim and a constant companion of Sri Guru Nanak. And, I think, for this reason Sikhs suffered more, because the rulers felt Sikhism was a threat to Islam.

 

[ronki23]

Sikh Sangat is just one Sikh forum - you can't make assumptions about all Sikhs based on the users of that one (fundamentalist) forum.

Many, many Sikhs want justice, or even acknowledgement, with regard to 1984 and the aftermath. These Sikhs DO NOT necessarily want Khalistan (the territory). The two issues are not necessarily mutually inclusive.

I've not come across any Sikhs (apart from fruity fundy types) who actually want Khalistan as an actual physical place. The Sikhs I've engaged with online and in the real world, who talk about Khalistan, consider it to be a mindset of a worldwide community, and not a physical territory.

Sadly, Sikhi in the Punjab is largely stale and corrupt. Sikhi's shining future is within the diaspora.

This has to be the worlds most wayward thread.

Sikhwiki
SikhLionz
SikhFreedom

SikhNet
SikhPhilosophy

Top 3 are pro-Khalistan and bottom 2 are pro-Bhindranwale

Treks, what's your opinion on this,

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/first-person-second-draft-once-upon-a-bloody-time/

As for Sikhi in Punjab being 'stale and corrupt' I was told that Sikhs living in Punjab are 'happy' living in India and do not demand a Khalistan. And I was also told that Akali Dal (who are the Sikh party of Punjab) and the BJP are allies. So what is corrupt about it? Hinduism is also corrupt in India; look at Nepali Hindus instead.

People do say that the non-Indian Sikhs have a loud anti-Indian/Hindu voice!

Will try out SikhNet and see how it goes

 

[ronki23]

Punjab produces 20% of Indian wheat. Grain production is likely to increase substantially with the introduction of GM crops. Our wheat granary is Uttar Pradesh with 33%.

p.s.: 20% of the cereals produced in India are wasted. For the last ten years our food stocks have always been generally above the stipulated food security levels. We exported 6.5 million tonnes of wheat in and 10 million tonnes of rice in 2012-13. Where we lag behind is pulses and oil which we purchase from world market. We have the dough (Foreign reserves at more than $300 billion). Don't worry, we are doing reasonably well.

I thought Punjab provided much more- though this is a bias website

1. Even the small, leftover, Indian Punjab today produces 85 percent of the food supply of India. It took the farmers of the Punjab, during the current decade, to bring about the "green revolution" in the country. Three crops a year, the most fertile soil in the world, drenched both by history and the sun on 32-30 parallel north latitude, and the perennial broad rivers for irrigation of this historical plain, have combined to assure the economic success for this area. Not long ago, the American colonists were particularly aware of the tobacco and cotton growing potential of Virginia and other southern states. These states were assets for the American settlers who fought their way to freedom from Britain and are now the proud nation of the United States of America. Why not Sikhs, The Punjab and Khalistan?
2. The last Sikh Kingdom, financially, was a highly successful government. The annual revenue of Sarkar Khalsa, around the year 1838-39 was rupees 2,88,89,032. Of this income, the receipts derived from land revenue, from all four provinces of the Sikh Kingdom, Lahore, Multan, Kashmir and Peshwar, amounted to rupees l,75,57,741 annually. Against this, the annual expenditures were rupees 1,41,09,300 inclusive of the sum of rupees 1,07,39,000, as the cost of the maintenance of the Khalsa army totalling 92,200 men, including the salaries of many English and French officers, uniforms, supplies, transportation and magazines. The Sikh government thus had a net annual surplus or saving of almost 11/2 crors of rupees.
Notwithstanding accusations of corruption, scandal and mismanagement against the Akali (Sikh) cabinets of the present mini Punjab in India, which are not peculiar to this region alone but are part of the total economic panic and insecurity of the whole country, and of the administrative incompetence of other Indian states it can be said that the recent Punjab governments have operated on a relatively safe budget in economic terms.
3. There is noticeable small industry, the result of private enterprise, in the Punjab today. The hydro-electric power generated in the Punjab, as earlier mentioned, will have to belong to a Punjab state and not to any other superficial unit concocted by planners in Delhi. With joint planning by Khalistan and Pakistan governments, textile mills can be developed in Khalistan area, much closer to the cotton fields of West Punjab than Karachi. This might well result in considerable savings in transportation costs.

shaheedkhalsa.com

Consequently,Punjab not only provides more than 60% of wheat and rice for Indials central reserve (at below market prices),many industrial plants in India depend, at least partly, on the supply of spare parts from Punjab.
In addition to Punjab’s traditional handloom products, cotton textiles and woollen hosieries, furniture and carpentry, and jewelry, it has recently developed a growing carpet industry in Amritsar area. Besides, Amritsar has a large printing industry which goes back to pre-partition days. Punjab also has a large transport and trucking industry. Lately, the agro-industry is also gathering momentum — for the preservation of fruits and vegetables.
Punjab should get billions of dollars in past due payments on account of its 75% river waters diverted to the neighboring states. The future returns on mutually negotiated quantity and price of exported water should enable Punjab to import all the raw materials it needs from India and other countries.

Khalistan » Economic Viability

 

[Aupmanyav]

I was told that Sikhs living in Punjab are 'happy' living in India and do not demand a Khalistan. And I was also told that Akali Dal (who are the Sikh party of Punjab) and the BJP are allies.

Punjab is a prosperous state, but it has a serious drug and alcohol problem. Prakash Singh Badal, the Akali Chief Minister, his family and associates are not supposed to be very honest. That is why Akali Dal suffered a setback in the recent elections.