Confused christians

[Adso]

I certainly am confused...

Christians have a tendency to cherry pick historic events and twist the facts to fit their belief. For example; Hitler was not an atheist and christianity is not the only charitable institution.

Cherry-picking is not limited to the Christian faith. Yeah, some people take events and paint a broad brush, or just misunderstand totally and run with it, but that's more of an intellectual failing than anything. For example, you cherry-picked to very odd and random points for an indeterminate point.

The christian community is the only group that claims any true innocence but we know different...

What on earth are you talking about? What does "true innocence" even mean? As far as I'm aware, most Christians are perfectly comfortable admitting that some Christians fail, fail often, and fail horribly.

Christianity has more blood on it's record and has committed more acts of genocide than any other religious group on earth.

Would you mind backing that statement up with some facts and data?

To disprove their claim as the most popular religion on earth, the average is less than 30% and falling.

Well, fellow Christians, it looks as if we are no longer the most popular faith. I personally thought we could keep up with Islam and the Eastern faiths, but it looks like we're out of the running, and thus our views and faith are all for not. I suppose it's time we start picking new beliefs and world views. I'm gonna have to go with Islam, seeing as it's statistically the most popular, and thus, the truest.

Even christians mark I don't know on religious poles at this point. So how is it that this disgusting brain poison still exists?

We give out wine at church.

 

[bigjimslade1000]

You're one of few new age christians. The fact is, nothing can prove the existence of a god/God. The only evidence is in the words of those books that are sooo outdated and not good sources of information. Can the bible build a cell phone? Can religion disprove science? Can Jesus really trim the fat, so to speak? The answers to these questions are all no.

 

[bigjimslade1000]

It's not human... It's opinion. I can't say I know anything, only that I have experienced certain things and met many people. The only thing keeping us truly separate these days, is religious fervor.

 

[bigjimslade1000]

Catholic missionaries used force to convert the heathens, they murdered all of the hugonauts and if I looked it up, I could prabably find a thousand or more other instances of religious hate, all surrounding christian sects. For instance; The catholic reformation, the inquisition and more recently, a group of African baptists burning suspected witches. The latter happened 2 years ago. So christianity and islam are very much related in their fear and hatred for those that do not agree. I hate no christian, only the garbage they seek to proliferate upon our world.

 

[Super Universe]

You're one of few new age christians. The fact is, nothing can prove the existence of a god/God. The only evidence is in the words of those books that are sooo outdated and not good sources of information. Can the bible build a cell phone? Can religion disprove science? Can Jesus really trim the fat, so to speak? The answers to these questions are all no.

I'm a "new age" Christian? I don't know what your idea of "new age" is so I'm not sure I fit that definition.

Nothing can prove the existence of God? So the universe just happened on it's own? Do you know how precise some things are? It's not just impossible, it's beyond impossible. It is designed it's just that people can't figure out why God allows bad things to happen. Look under "General Religious Debates" and you will find a topic "Advanced God Theory", I explain why God does not reveal Himself.

Can the bible build a cell phone? No, can lava? No.

Can religion disprove science? The disagreement that religion and science has goes way back. In ancient times religion and science were the same thing. Religions evolved into powerful groups with a man at the head who's word was supposedly God's law. When smart men came along and began to explain natural events it took power away from religion because the people accepted the scientists explanation more than the religious one.

God is not against science, He is the original scientist.

 

[bigjimslade1000]

To answer all of your questions at once, the simple answer to all of them is we don't know. All physics and philosophy break down at the beginning, simply because we weren't there to see it. To put it plainly, beside the science of the world we can experience, the religious are just as confused as the scientist.

 

[Super Universe]

Catholic missionaries used force to convert the heathens, they murdered all of the hugonauts and if I looked it up, I could prabably find a thousand or more other instances of religious hate, all surrounding christian sects. For instance; The catholic reformation, the inquisition and more recently, a group of African baptists burning suspected witches. The latter happened 2 years ago. So christianity and islam are very much related in their fear and hatred for those that do not agree. I hate no christian, only the garbage they seek to proliferate upon our world.

African tribal groups massacre other tribes. Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge killed about 21% of the Cambodian population. In the 70's the Argentine government kidnapped an estimated 9,000 people who were never seen again. Syria killed 10,000 of it's own people in the 70's and is doing it again.

It's people. It's humans treating other humans as if they are animals.

Religion is just one way people form groups and separate themselves but it's not the only way.

 

[Super Universe]

To answer all of your questions at once, the simple answer to all of them is we don't know. All physics and philosophy break down at the beginning, simply because we weren't there to see it. To put it plainly, beside the science of the world we can experience, the religious are just as confused as the scientist.

I respect a person who says "I don't know" because you're not supposed to know. God created the universe so He could forget who He is, so He can experience wonder, surprise, even anger and jealousy. God in heaven can't become jealous because there is nothing for Him to be jealous of, He created it all. But as a human God can experience His own creation and not know how it all came to be or what is coming next.

 

[bigjimslade1000]

That sounds more like Brahman than the judaic god/God. Brahman on occasion took up a human form in order to be human and forget. Also by contrast, humans are also gods from time to time, according to the Hindu philosophy. As a skeptical agnostic, anti-theist, I believe there's no way to honestly know anything. If one were to read the rig veda or the upanishads (which means sit here and listen), they would find many striking resemblances to later mythical figures such as; Mythra, Horus and Jesus. Though with time, each system became more closed minded and the people resorted to ceremonies and archaic passages or rites, as opposed to just seeing it as a personal belief. When a philosophy becomes a religion, it is easily twisted to suit a position of power, more so than just a way of seeing a spiritual side. To put that into contrast, christianity is a driving political force in the US and when they don't agree with something, even if their not the majority, the government is quick to squash it. Hence one of the reasons I think the religious reich should be put to pasture.

 

[Adso]

You're one of few new age christians.

No, I'm not a "new age christian". I'd actually consider myself an old school Christian.

The fact is, nothing can prove the existence of a god/God. The only evidence is in the words of those books that are sooo outdated and not good sources of information.

The belief or disbelief in God comes down to an interpretation of reality and experience based on a model. The Christian model is based on the Biblical characterization of God, and it's implications and effects in the Universe. The Bible is not the evidence, but the model to which we compare.

Can the bible build a cell phone?

No, it's just a book, just like any other; an inanimate object.

Can religion disprove science?

No, and I don't see why it'd want to.

Can Jesus really trim the fat, so to speak?

Yes, He can. He partnered up with Jenny Craig back in '89. It's called the "J.C./J.C. Program". (Seriously though, what are you talking about?)

It's not human... It's opinion. I can't say I know anything, only that I have experienced certain things and met many people.

That's all well and good, but if you're going to try and dismantle a belief structure, you're going to need to do more than make emotional appeals and straw men arguments.

The only thing keeping us truly separate these days, is religious fervor.

Well, there's tribalism, greed, race, corruption, ignorance, culture, and politics to name a few more, and frankly, more accurately.

 

[bigjimslade1000]

And Hitler killed 6,000,000+ jews. That beside the point, the numbers don't lie... Christindom is still responsible for more hate and bloodshed than any modern war and all other religious sects combined. It's even stated in the bible, that the judaic god is a hateful, spiteful and jealous god that will stand for no resistance. There are instances in the bible of god slaughtering children with bears and cities with snakes, also by raining fire down on entire societies. I would tend to think that all of those things were natural and were seen by the naive primitives as divine, which now we would see as absurd or acts of nature. To give any support to such barbarism and say that god was good, based on the old testament, is an affront to morally minded, intelligent people everywhere. To use it to twist the minds of the young, as do the bible camps is a disgusting act and I'll simply not allow it if I'm capable of stopping it. God is not merciful and any god that would send his own son to die, is no god that I would be proud to follow. If god were that powerful, it wouldn't need a sacrifice, it would do it via it's own power. Being that it hasn't yet, leads me to believe that the christian god is a terrible ineffectual *** and deserves no favor from humans.

 

[Nooj]

To give any support to such barbarism and say that god was good, based on the old testament, is an affront to morally minded, intelligent people everywhere.

hey man, get with the times. your morality is just as much of a sham as the morality of christians. don't you know that all the intelligent people are moral nihilists?

 

[oldbadger]

To bigjimslade1000. Hi! I'm back! You wrote:-And it's not that I know there's no god/God, I just see that religion is poisonous .........

So why would you bother with religion? Religion isn't anything to do with God..... well, I don't think so. Just don't bother....... you can simply go on searching individually?

By the way, you tell us that religions are all rubbish (in so many words), but you haven't told us what you think of the secular humans out there. All wonderful people?

 

[bigjimslade1000]

I have a belief of my own, though I see it as unimportant... A nihilist believes in nothing at all. I'm not secular and I'm not an atheist but I see religion as old reasoning and I'd hope that we'd evolved past such idiocy by now. While religions were good for protecting the tribe, what tribes are there now in our modern global community? I see us as one race, with no distinction of color, race or nationality. All I see is the arrogance propagated and maintained by religious agenda. Disclaimer: Politics are just as responsible for many of the worlds problems, as is religion and both should be looked at critically by everyone.

 

[bigjimslade1000]

I'm not secular but I'd definitely fall in to that category, being that I have no religion. I liked Christopher Hitchens and people like him, only in the sense that they were and are entertaining. I find myself sickened almost to the point of vomiting when I here children spout scripture. I believe as does Bill Nye that religion is absolutely inappropriate for children and that they should be given a choice in the matter. Not that they shouldn't have a dose of philosophy but that they should be protected from religious sharks, only seeking to build upon their pedestal.

 

[Super Universe]

And Hitler killed 6,000,000+ jews. That beside the point, the numbers don't lie... Christindom is still responsible for more hate and bloodshed than any modern war and all other religious sects combined. It's even stated in the bible, that the judaic god is a hateful, spiteful and jealous god that will stand for no resistance. There are instances in the bible of god slaughtering children with bears and cities with snakes, also by raining fire down on entire societies. I would tend to think that all of those things were natural and were seen by the naive primitives as divine, which now we would see as absurd or acts of nature. To give any support to such barbarism and say that god was good, based on the old testament, is an affront to morally minded, intelligent people everywhere. To use it to twist the minds of the young, as do the bible camps is a disgusting act and I'll simply not allow it if I'm capable of stopping it. God is not merciful and any god that would send his own son to die, is no god that I would be proud to follow. If god were that powerful, it wouldn't need a sacrifice, it would do it via it's own power. Being that it hasn't yet, leads me to believe that the christian god is a terrible ineffectual *** and deserves no favor from humans.

Humans want to feel good about themselves, on the surface there is nothing wrong with that but the way they do it is to put down others to raise their own self esteem. Hitler saw the Jews as an easy target. The German people rallied around the idea that the Jews were to blame for their plight after losing World War One. Just because most Germans were Christian does not mean it was a Crusade, most American's were Christian then too and fought against Germany.

The books of the bible were not written to be a "bible". Almost none of the people back then could read because there was no benefit to it. The written word had some degree of power over the ignorant people, much more so than today. Things were written in order to give the people a sense that their idea of God was superior to others and they were also written to scare the people into following the rules. God slaughtered no one.

Any God that would send His own son to die is no God you would be proud of? So earthly life is what is most important to you? You think God should be all about perfecting humanity? In a universal sense, don't you see that as very narrow and selfish?

 

[Super Universe]

I'm not secular but I'd definitely fall in to that category, being that I have no religion. I liked Christopher Hitchens and people like him, only in the sense that they were and are entertaining. I find myself sickened almost to the point of vomiting when I here children spout scripture. I believe as does Bill Nye that religion is absolutely inappropriate for children and that they should be given a choice in the matter. Not that they shouldn't have a dose of philosophy but that they should be protected from religious sharks, only seeking to build upon their pedestal.

But when it comes to belief, choice is never taken away from anyone. You've been blaming Christianity for the actions of individuals. All Christians don't harm. Even a child raised in a strong Christian house still has the ability to believe what they wish to believe.

 

[oldbadger]

To bigjimslade1000:-
You wrote:- ...... I have no religion........
That's cool. No problem. I haven't got one...... at least, there's no congregation of pantheists around here that I know of.
religion is absolutely inappropriate for children and that they should be given a choice in the matter.
I absolutely agree. MIndless hear-say and religious-injection is horrible. I was confirmed as a Christian at 12...... because Daddy and Mummy would be proud of me and have a nice service to attend......... Oh!.... and I could bunk off 'running and other sports' for the confirmation lessons. Daft or what?

 

[Straw Dog]

Not angry... Disgusted and tired. I was a christian, then a buddhist, a sufi, a jew and a hindu, now I claim nothing. And it's not that I know there's no god/God, I just see that religion is poisonous and it creates cultural, racial and social distinctions that shouldn't ever have existed and wouldn't without religions like christianity, islam or judaism. They have created far too many dividing lines and should be eliminated post haste.

Surely a more practical approach and alternative to elimination would be transformation. Religions were made for humanity and not the other way around. They are living, changing institutions and individuals play a role in the direction that they take. I know that some folks are taught to be slaves to their dogma without questioning anything and that may be cause for frustration as well as more complex social issues. Perhaps we can argue against authoritarian fundamentalism while arguing for more inclusive, moderate, and/or universal interpretations?

 

[bigjimslade1000]

I don't hate christians, I just find that the majority is self absorbed. It could be said that corruption brooches all walks of society, it just happens that the majority has an opinion and opinion is bunk. I was raised in a multi-religious household, so I had an endless supply of religious articles to choose from and I saw one unifying theme... They all point in the same direction, therefor making no one any more important or believable than another. I met Kitty Davey and many others like her that sought enlightenment, only to realize that they already were. We are a race that is half in half out and almost always asleep. It's the idea that if there was a god/God that it would most certainly be everything, being as the universe we know is one thing and we're just smaller functions whose purpose is yet to be identified. I was once asked what the meaning of life is and the best answer I could come up with was "predation". Eating and dying and creating food for something else. A black hole eats planets and shoots out supercharged beams of energy, microbes feed on us inside and out and the fungus that eats the dead feeds a myriad of things including us. That is pretty much how I see things and Maybe I have more to see and learn but I don't need religion for any of those things.