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Confused christians

To see the world through unrestrained eyes is a beautiful thing and having a religion is not important, as it is to a few. I don't believe in hell for non-believers nor do I believe there is a heaven for mind slaves. I do believe that heaven can be found in letting go, grasping at something beyond understanding and living in that desire, to me, only leads to suffering, if not for the acolyte, for those that are subject to it.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
bigjimslade:- You wrote:- ..............Eating and dying and creating food for something else......

That's definitely wrong, bigjim. Eating and dying and multiplying. So more than half of it is great, the eating and multiplying bits, that is.

You do sound as f you're very fed up. What makes you happy?
 
Loving the world and seeing no hate but it's there and it's destroying the beauty of it all. If I could say I hated anything, it would be the ways the world. I hate politics and the laws it births. I hate seeing people suffer at the hands of the self righteous and those that feel entitled. I hate arrogance and pride. I'm happy when I'm with people, I'm happier when I'm with people that don't care or are not threatened by what others believe. I don't hate christianity, as it would appear, I'm more saddened by what people do with it and how they treat others by it's usage. I could say the same of the many other religions that separate the peoples of this world.
 

Lady B

noob
And Hitler killed 6,000,000+ jews. That beside the point, the numbers don't lie... Christindom is still responsible for more hate and bloodshed than any modern war and all other religious sects combined. It's even stated in the bible, that the judaic god is a hateful, spiteful and jealous god that will stand for no resistance.

Ok let us reason together for a moment on the justice of God. Lets say (and I am not being specific to anyone when I say you) lets say your son was the victim in a horrible murder, you go to trial and seek justice. Lets say the accused suddenly dies peacefully in his sleep during the trial. Do you feel you have your justice? Now lets say the deceased father stands up and says " I take responsibility for this crime my son my son committed, let his judgment fall on me" will you not feel some justice has been done now? Even by his admitting a crime was done by his son and he feels responsible is justice in my eyes.but what if because the defendant died, trial dismissed you walk out with nothing? Where is your justice now?

Let us look closer at sacrifice shall we? Lets again imagine there is a lawmaker in a village, his mother was just accused of adultery which is punishable by death. He knows he cannot make allowances for his own mother or he will be seen as weak and unjust. He lets the ruling stand so she prepares to be executed. While at the last moments of her life he yells out" please let me take her place" is this a justified sacrifice?

God is a just God and our sins must be atoned so how is he ineffectual in providing us the only way possible for justice to be done?
 
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Unlike the christian god, I take accountability for my actions, instead of scapegoating, which is exactly how it would appear. Satan doesn't make me act like a fool and god can't save me from myself, so to make a point... It's immoral to think that I could be saved by the death of another. Another point I think should be made is this; The bible was written decades after the death of the so called "messiah" and Paul of Tarsus was a liar. John was insane and Noah was a babbling idiot... How can anyone buy it as fact that any of these men existed if they can only be proved by edited texts and bad translations?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
bigjimslade:- You wrote:- (within other text) If I could say I hated anything, it would be the ways the world. I hate politics and the laws it births.

That has little to do with religions! Surely, if you do not believe in any religion, just walk away from them all? There's loads of agnostics and atheists on this forum to read and discuss with?

Oh dear...I've lost the thread now..... must go back to page one......

all the best.....
 

Lady B

noob
And Hitler killed 6,000,000+ jews. That beside the point, the numbers don't lie... Christindom is still responsible for more hate and bloodshed than any modern war and all other religious sects combined. It's even stated in the bible, that the judaic god is a hateful, spiteful and jealous god that will stand for no resistance. There are instances in the bible of god slaughtering children with bears and cities with snakes, also by raining fire down on entire societies. I would tend to think that all of those things were natural and were seen by the naive primitives as divine, which now we would see as absurd or acts of nature. To give any support to such barbarism and say that god was good, based on the old testament, is an affront to morally minded, intelligent people everywhere. To use it to twist the minds of the young, as do the bible camps is a disgusting act and I'll simply not allow it if I'm capable of stopping it. God is not merciful and any god that would send his own son to die, is no god that I would be proud to follow. If god were that powerful, it wouldn't need a sacrifice, it would do it via it's own power. Being that it hasn't yet, leads me to believe that the christian god is a terrible ineffectual *** and deserves no favor from humans.

Unlike the christian god, I take accountability for my actions, instead of scapegoating, which is exactly how it would appear. Satan doesn't make me act like a fool and god can't save me from myself, so to make a point... It's immoral to think that I could be saved by the death of another. Another point I think should be made is this; The bible was written decades after the death of the so called "messiah" and Paul of Tarsus was a liar. John was insane and Noah was a babbling idiot... How can anyone buy it as fact that any of these men existed if they can only be proved by edited texts and bad translations?


Indeed it would be immoral to ask for a scapegoat, but where is the lack of morality when someone willingly lays down his life for you? Or takes your punishment, are you ungrateful and feel he has done you a great injustice?

Also without attempting this quoting feature again and destroying the context, I want to address the statement " Christians see themselves as the lone innocents. This is complete nonsense, we (I will speak for true Christians) see ourselves as depraved the lowest of creation and unworthy of a Holy God's love at all. We view our riotousness not from ourselves but by Gods infinite mercy, for grace are we saved not of works lest any man should boast. Where do you even get this idea? Sure there may be pious Christians as with any other religion or man in general. A true Christian knows he has no way to shed his guilt, he needs a savior and is forever grateful God has provided him the way.
 
Check out Allan Watts and you'll see the mind games in which the church has propagated since the Constantinian era. Listen to Christopher Hitchens, he brings up a good point about the Maobytes and their slaughter at the hands of Moses and his people. There's a site that lists all of god's crimes against the early peoples of biblical theology. The old testament god was a totalitarian dictator and he, if he/it exists, is a monster beyond anything I've ever experienced.
 
No I said they see their religion as innocent... And they claim to be the only charitable group and while I'm generalizing a bit, these are the things I hear constantly coming from christians.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
it creates cultural, racial and social distinctions that shouldn't ever have existed and wouldn't without religions like christianity, islam or judaism.

and would not have existed?

This isn't true. Religion has attempted to remove those distinctions. The distinctions that you see in religion are the ones reflecting the World, not the other way around imo.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
Indeed it would be immoral to ask for a scapegoat, but where is the lack of morality when someone willingly lays down his life for you? Or takes your punishment, are you ungrateful and feel he has done you a great injustice?

I feel it is a great injustice when the person who is so called laying his life down for me created the situation that he needed to lay his life down for me in the first place. The Christian God certainly surpasses the devil in the ways of evil, his psychological crimes against humanity can't even touch anything Satan has done or ever will do.
 

Lady B

noob
I will not attempt to defend God and his alleged "crimes",He is God while we are men rationalizing with the pitiful minds we have.
 
Satan is only credited with a few deaths in the bible, God with millions. I would be so inclined to agree with the statement "One man's god became a devil to another". I was once presented with this statement "The early christians were stoned and chastized by the pegans". To which I answered with this question "And didn't the christians stone the pegans when they took over"? I would even say that the christians are still casting stones, only in a less literal fashion.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I've met some enlightened christians but when they spread a doctrine, they leave the door open for fanatics to twist and spoil it. It's not only a silly belief, it teaches it's patrons to remain ignorant and that's the truly disgusting part of it.

Absolutely anything can be twisted and spoiled by fanatics. My belief is not ignorant, it is not silly, and it does not teach anyone to be ignorant. People need to look at themselves before they start judging others and their belief systems. And blanket statements and generalizations and stereotypes don't really mean anything since hardly anyone fits into the molds.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Satan is only credited with a few deaths in the bible, God with millions. I would be so inclined to agree with the statement "One man's god became a devil to another". I was once presented with this statement "The early Christians were stoned and chastised by the pagans". To which I answered with this question "And didn't the Christians stone the pagans when they took over"? I would even say that the Christians are still casting stones, only in a less literal fashion.

Actually, the deaths are credited to fellow humans. The human race is a violent one. And not all Christians are casting stones- The Christians I know feed people- both physically and spiritually (and yes, I know that others do that, too, before you say anything), and do a lot of good things (and I know others also do that). What you pin on Christians can be said about all humans- and only small percentage of them. There will always be a small percentage of ANY group- religions, organizations, etc. who are bad apples.

And not everyone who calls Jesus "Lord" is truly a follower- even Jesus said that. I am not going to judge individuals myself, but I do keep it in mind.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Christians have a tendency to cherry pick historic events and twist the facts to fit their belief. For example; Hitler was not an atheist and christianity is not the only charitable institution. The christian community is the only group that claims any true innocence but we know different... Christianity has more blood on it's record and has committed more acts of genocide than any other religious group on earth. To disprove their claim as the most popular religion on earth, the average is less than 30% and falling. Even christians mark I don't know on religious poles at this point. So how is it that this disgusting brain poison still exists?

Most Christians are just ordinary humans that hide behind their religion to feel a sense of security and social acceptance like any other. It has been used for political ends and caused bloodshed among the people politicians manipulate just like any other. They are for the most part just morally and intellectually deficient as any other people on Earth. It can be argued however that Christianity promotes a false sense of morality and a false sense of hope and encourages herd-mentality in its orthodox western form. It is important then, to understand what Christianity is SUPPOSED to be and what 99% of its representation is.

Thankfully, Western Christianity is shrinking, and much of that is due to the shoddy tactics and 'lowest common denominator" Theologies. It cannot hold its own when it is not able to enforce itself socially or politically. It relies on Groupthink herd mentality to promote various doctrines, such as the "King James Only" movement which is a very common mentality or the "Bible is Infallible" approach where all scholarly work (That's not done on their side) is said to be ignored and not even considered. On this level, Christianity perhaps can be singled out as a religion that has not adapted well to Modern Philosophical thought and relies on whatever social pressure it can still exert to prevent serious questioning of its claims more so than others.

Christianity is, Biblically speaking, a form of what is commonly called "Messianic Judaism", but a FORM of. The current name-brand of "Messianic Judaism" is essentially Evangelicism with a bit of Judaism. The "Christians" in the Book of Acts were Torah-obedient, Nazarene-sect Jews who barely differed from other Nazarene-sects except that they believed Yashua was the expected Messiah to deliver them. And I believe he did in fact deliver them, and the destruction of the Kingdom of Israel happened just as it allegedly says he predicted. Jesus called himself a "prophet" and predicted the end of the Temple and the Hasmonean reign, and I believe it. What I don't believe however is what 99% of "Orthodox" Christianity and its unorthodox cousins believe.

What a "Christian" is supposed to be, as we see Biblically, is either a Jew or a Convert to Judaism who believes in the Nazarene Jewish perspective of the Messiah. That is, arguably, the most likely intended context of the Gospels and even is the basis of Paul's epistles, even if Paul was trying to change other's views. For example, Galatians is written in response to competition between the "Judaizers" over control of the movement, and it is here and Romans and other epistles where Paul's beliefs become entrenched. If you'll notice, most Christian doctrine does in fact go by Paul's teachings, and very rarely does Jesus's direct teachings get invoked. Jesus does in fact teach a saved-by-works doctrine, but this is not convenient whatsoever to the need to feel "secure in their salvation", so they water down everything Jesus says, even what Paul himself says, about what it means to be saved, removing the very basis for following the commandments.


Jesus has been turned into something completely outside of the likely intended context of the authors. His message and the Epistles and Gospels bearing them have been warped and interpolated and grossly misinterpreted and dishonestly mistranslated, we can only make our best guess what is authentic, what it means, what shouldn't be there, and what is missing. There are also many "Acts" and "gospels" that are rejected because they aren't in the Roman canon, but some present a very Jewish-Christian line of thought, such as the Pseudo-Clementines.


All other forms of Christianity ultimately allow their authorities to redefine whatever they want to consider "sin", as well as the rationale and reasoning for their particular documents because they have "De-Judaized" Christianity since the days of the Proto-Orthodox.

I personally do in fact believe that this form of Lawless Christianity where authority and definition of sin and how to interpret outside of the Nazarene Jewish perspective is fact as you say "Brain Poison", and it's because under this logic, there are no real rules especially when you don't even have to read what the text says at plain face value. Paul says that unrepentant fornicators don't go to the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus says you cannot divorce. Yet they have all kinds of justifications with their concocted Theologies to trump and negate the plain reading of the text to suit their conveniences, that the very message of the story is lost amidst an attempt to "Cash-in" by making gentilized copies of the Jewish Messiah.

There is much difference between the Reality of the Jewish Christ in the Canonical texts themselves and 99% of the representation.

If Christianity is read within its Jewish framework, it's not Brain Poison whatsoever, it's Brain Medicine. But all the other forms of "Medicine", are according to my own belief, artificial imitations made of synthesized chemicals that don't actually work.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I feel it is a great injustice when the person who is so called laying his life down for me created the situation that he needed to lay his life down for me in the first place. The Christian God certainly surpasses the devil in the ways of evil, his psychological crimes against humanity can't even touch anything Satan has done or ever will do.

Your reading it like it is a story. It's not a story.
 
It's not just a small group of people. I was a christian for a time and all I heard was how to avoid other religions because they were "The devils playground". I've traveled to many places and I've met many people, of many religions. I found one common thing among the majority of each group (Hindu, Islam, Buddhism, Sufi, whatever... They all seek the same thing and none can be better than another. However, There's an insanity to it, a kind of deep longing. If one seeks forever to find an answer an doesn't actively live, then one finds that they worried too much. We know what is wrong and what is right but what is right to me, is wrong to you and so on. But it's not really that important... Why not just acknowledge that it's there and get on with things.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If one seeks forever to find an answer and doesn't actively live Why not just acknowledge that it's there and get on with things?


'As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead' James 2:26

Some religious men and women have interpreted this fact to mean working to propagate their belief system is what should be done. But doesn't it mean all the deeds a person does to be a better person? Being a better person is what really draws others to your way of life. I do not believe that one should hide their faith. But faith should be for making a better world for all.
 

Lady B

noob
It's not just a small group of people. I was a christian for a time and all I heard was how to avoid other religions because they were "The devils playground". I've traveled to many places and I've met many people, of many religions. I found one common thing among the majority of each group (Hindu, Islam, Buddhism, Sufi, whatever... They all seek the same thing and none can be better than another. However, There's an insanity to it, a kind of deep longing. If one seeks forever to find an answer an doesn't actively live, then one finds that they worried too much. We know what is wrong and what is right but what is right to me, is wrong to you and so on. But it's not really that important... Why not just acknowledge that it's there and get on with things.

may I respectfully suggest to you that your were not ever truly a christian?
 
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