Consciousness in Cavemen? A Debate.

[painted wolf]

How do you know Neanderthals had no language?

They had to pass on how to make complex tools and rituals and care for the sick.. they had the same sort of physical and genetic hallmarks of language as we do.

wa:do

 

[LoTrobador]

How do you know Neanderthals had no language?

They had to pass on how to make complex tools and rituals and care for the sick.. they had the same sort of physical and genetic hallmarks of language as we do.

wa:do

They even made jewelery.

 

[mickiel]

How do you know Neanderthals had no language?

They had to pass on how to make complex tools and rituals and care for the sick.. they had the same sort of physical and genetic hallmarks of language as we do.

wa:do

We can only have language if we are Conscious beings, I am convinced of that. Animals have no language, because they are not Conscious beings. They have brains, but language does not come from having a brain, it comes from having Consciousness. You can trace Consciousness, by tracing language! The verbal eventually becomes written. Primordal man had neither! There is absolutely zero evidence of neither.

Language must make dramatic changes in mans attention to things and persons, because yes it does allow a transfer of information of enormous scope, but it must develop, and have archaeologial evidence that it did develop. There is absolutely no evidence for language in primordal man, none!

Primordal humans had brains, rudimentary skills to make choppers and flints, but they didnot describe those skills in language. Because they did these things, just like an animal would, by instinct! Chimps can insert straws into ant hills to get ants, and that be correctly described as " Tool usage", but does that define Consciousness?

No, it does not. And let me go into that.

Peace.

 

[painted wolf]

Actually Chimps have to learn how to do that by watching others. And only certian groups can do it... this is evidence of culture in chimps.

Dolphins have language, with syntax and personal names.

Neanderthals made tools much better than simple flints. There is no evidence that they did not have language.

There are lots of languages that have never been written down... many are being lost... according to you there would be no reason to think those peoples ancestors were conscious.

wa:do

 

[mickiel]

Consciousness is NOT the performance of skills, or the learning of skills, such as art or tool making, even burying the dead. Consciousness is not instinctual reaction or the repetition of said, Consciousness is not necessary for learning. Its not a copy for experience, many, many misunderstand this. Consciousness is the governor of behavior! It didnot evolve biologically by simple natural selection, and it is not continuous with the idiot hierarchies of speechless apes. The orgin of learning and the orgin of Consciousness are two utterly seperate problems.

The emotional lives of men and of animals are indeed marvelously simular, but to focus on the simularity unduly is to forget that a great chasm exist. The intelluctual life of man, his culture and history, religion and science, is different from anythingelse we know of in the universe. That is fact! I do not adhere to the theory of evolution, but even if I did, its as if primordal man evolved to a certain point, and then in ourselves turned at a dramatic right angle and simply exploded into a different direction!

I could never appreciate this discontinuity between speechless apes and speaking civilized intellectual men.

No, language was given by God, no doubt about it, and he didnot give it to primordal humans.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[painted wolf]

Uh huh... so basically consciousness is a magic line that you have drawn and no evidence can change your mind because you'll just re-draw the iine..

wa:do

 

[LoTrobador]

I do not adhere to the theory of evolution, but even if I did, its as if primordal man evolved to a certain point, and then in ourselves turned at a dramatic right angle and simply exploded into a different direction!

I could never appreciate this discontinuity between speechless apes and speaking civilized intellectual men.

So, when in your opinion did this change occur?

 

[Amill]

Uh huh... so basically consciousness is a magic line that you have drawn and no evidence can change your mind because you'll just re-draw the iine..

wa:do

I wouldn't spend too much time in this topic. Mickiel believes that conciousness leads to language and civilization, so if a culture didn't produce written language or have a complex infrastructure they weren't "conscious beings". He doesn't take any other factors into account and makes unfounded assumptions based off definitions and ideas that he's made up in his mind. Even though early man had art, clothing, tools, weapons, and pottery they were living off "instincts", in his opinion.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Religion is strangely silent in Primordal man. In my view, religion cannot exist without the advent of Consciousness. Primordal man had no religion.



In my view Atheism wouldnot exist, unless Consciousness existed. Atheism didnot exist in Primordal man.

You appear to contradict yourself here. I mean I'm not surprised but this does seem to be an obvious contradiction

If science exist, it only exist because Consciousness exist. Primordal man had no science.

What would constitute "science" in your opinion?

I think they were advanced enough to have survived such a long time. Stone tools have been found.

 

[logician]

There have been until recently and still are a number of homo sapien cultures that are little advanced from Neandertal cultures. One cannot assume that Neandertal could not speak because they did not develop high technology. They went extincnt probably for several reasons, one would be competition from us, another could be the nornal problems of disease and famine, and of course natural disasters.

 

[mickiel]

I wouldn't spend too much time in this topic.

Well then excuse yourself from the topic. As well as your comments. Why explain why you would excuse yourself, but yet express yourself?

Set your own example, and then I could expect nothingelse from you.

I got nothing from you beforehand, so I am still at peace.

 

[painted wolf]

I wouldn't spend too much time in this topic. Mickiel believes that conciousness leads to language and civilization, so if a culture didn't produce written language or have a complex infrastructure they weren't "conscious beings". He doesn't take any other factors into account and makes unfounded assumptions based off definitions and ideas that he's made up in his mind. Even though early man had art, clothing, tools, weapons, and pottery they were living off "instincts", in his opinion.

So you think his magic line is writing things down?

In that case Sequoyah must be a very godly person... he is one of the only people to have ever developed a written language indipendantly. He made the Cherokee literate in their own language and they quickly surpassed the English living around them in literacy. (95% in just a few years).
I guess Cherokee were more conscious than Europeans.

wa:do

 

[LoTrobador]

I guess Cherokee were more conscious than Europeans.

I'm afraid the logic of Mickiel's view on the consciousness seems to works more like

1. Europeans were conscious.
2. Cherokee were not Europeans.
3. Cherokee were not conscious.

:sarcastic

 

[mickiel]

Consciousness in cavemen is a tricky thing to consider, because they showed no signs of it, but everyone assumes they were. Sadly, one of the results of human Consciousness, is War! In and outfighting, killing of your own species. Primordal man never killed each other, they never fought each other, never had wars. There is absolute zero archaeological evidence of any war amoung them. Because they had zero Consciousness. They had brains, but nothing more than like a cat having its brain.

I think Primordal man was " A set up" for Modernday man. A " First stage of a preplanned Creation of human Consciousness."

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[painted wolf]

Consciousness in cavemen is a tricky thing to consider, because they showed no signs of it, but everyone assumes they were. Sadly, one of the results of human Consciousness, is War! In and outfighting, killing of your own species. Primordal man never killed each other, they never fought each other, never had wars. There is absolute zero archaeological evidence of any war amoung them. Because they had zero Consciousness. They had brains, but nothing more than like a cat having its brain.

You have to be kidding...
Prehistoric warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Prehistoric Murder: Wound Shows Human Killed Neanderthal » Propeller

wa:do

 

[mickiel]

You have to be kidding...
Prehistoric warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Prehistoric Murder: Wound Shows Human Killed Neanderthal » Propeller

wa:do

No, I am not kidding. I consider any human that lived before Adam, as primordal. Adam was perhaps created possibly 14,000 years ago, I just don't really know. But war didNOT come on the scene until after Adam. The evidence I have studied supports this, and I am amoung the group who disagrees with your referenced Wikipedia information. It says not all agree with the timeframes listed, I certainly am one of those.

There can be no war without Consciousness, primordal humans were not conscious beings, THATS how I know they didnot war.

Peace.

 

[painted wolf]

Circular reasoning makes one dizzy.

good luck and try not to trip... it's all to easy after all that spinning.

wa:do

 

[mickiel]

Circular reasoning makes one dizzy.

good luck and try not to trip... it's all to easy after all that spinning.

wa:do

I don't mind tripping, my whole life has been a trip. I am at comfort with the spinning. I live in the spin, the darkness. I trust my reasoning more than anythingelse, I go off of my own mind.

And I like it that way.

Peace.

 

[AxisMundi]

I have often been accused of not debating, which I disagree with. But I will make a " Conscious effort" to dispute that accusation in this thread. I am interested in Ancient history, and the bible is part of that in my view. I never have believed that civilization is just 2000 years old or that Adam was the first human created. Obviously we had Nenderthal and Cromagnon prehistoric humans, obviously. But its my contention that they couldnot have had Consciousness, as we have it. And I don't think Consciousness is complettely understood.

If God would have given them Consciousness, Civilization would have started with them. Language would have began with them. Mathmatics would have began with them, Government would have began with them, Science would have began with them. None of these things began with them, so I see no way possible they had anything beyond an " Instinctual Consciousness."

Peace.

Actually, language and civilization DID begin with them.

Neanderthals had all the equipment in the throat and brain structures necessary for speech, including evidence of a preference in hand usage, mostly right-handed. Their brains held 30% more volume than ours, took care of their sick and injured, lived in cooperative groups of around 30 or more, and they butchered and cooked their meat. And most damning to your opinion is the fact that they ritually buried their dead, the graves strewn with tools, food, and gifts. An awareness (or believe, depending on one's POV) of an afterlife is certainly indicative of consciousness.

Science also began with them. Crafting spears and tools is a matter of science, as are cooperative hunting techniques with said tools. They also are known to have built hearths in their cave swellings, as well as temporary huts from hides and wood.

That said, Jehovah certainly didn't "give them a consciousness" because 1. Jehovah is incapable of such and 2. they predate Jehovah by hundreds of thousands of years.

 

[mickiel]

Actually, language and civilization DID begin with them.

Neanderthals had all the equipment in the throat and brain structures necessary for speech, including evidence of a preference in hand usage, mostly right-handed. Their brains held 30% more volume than ours, took care of their sick and injured, lived in cooperative groups of around 30 or more, and they butchered and cooked their meat. .

They had all that, and still, after some 300,000 to who knows how many millions of years, never progressed to civilization. Never developed Language, never developed transportation, never developed science, never developed educational systems, never developed religion, never developed medicines.

NEVER!

Peace.