Consciousness in Cavemen? A Debate.

[painted wolf]

It must be nice to live in your own reality.

wa:do

 

[mickiel]

It must be nice to live in your own reality.

wa:do

I would have it no other way.

And I am serious about that.

Peace.

 

[AxisMundi]

They had all that, and still, after some 300,000 to who knows how many millions of years, never progressed to civilization. Never developed Language, never developed transportation, never developed science, never developed educational systems, never developed religion, never developed medicines.

NEVER!

Peace.

Didn't read my response did you.

They did indeed have religion, hence the ritual burial of their dead.
What has transportation got to do with anything? Most people in the medieval world walked.
They most certainly did indeed develope sciences, as evidenced by their tools.
They did indeed have languages.
They did indeed have an "education system", ie teaching the young their role in society and the world. Again in the medieval ages, "education" was reserved for the upper classes. MOST people couldn't read, write, or even do simple math.
They did indeed have a civilization, as in a clan structure.
And they certainly had medicine, in herbs and other plants. Medicine isn't something that necessarily comes in a bottle.

May I ask why this single-minded attempt to denigrate our ancestors?

 

[mickiel]

May I ask why this single-minded attempt to denigrate our ancestors?

I am not single minded, I just don't think like you. And I will answer your inquiry. Evoilution is based on the existence of primordal man, and I am after the denigrate and dismantle of that theory. I maintain that primordal humans existence is grossly misunderstood, but it remains a foundation of corrupt knowledge that has birthed further corruptness in our understanding. I am after that corruptness, will chase it down to its root system, and deal with it at its root. Counting the minds it has wasted all along the way.

Good minds, as I have met here at this site. And yet their thoughts blended in and affected by this gross misunderstanding.

So they hold a right to further incorperate this mess into the populace, and I hold a right just as well to inflict another view, vastly differing from the things I am discusted with.

Peace.

 

[AxisMundi]

I am not single minded, I just don't think like you. And I will answer your inquiry. Evoilution is based on the existence of primordal man, and I am after the denigrate and dismantle of that theory. I maintain that primordal humans existence is grossly misunderstood, but it remains a foundation of corrupt knowledge that has birthed further corruptness in our understanding. I am after that corruptness, will chase it down to its root system, and deal with it at its root. Counting the minds it has wasted all along the way.

Good minds, as I have met here at this site. And yet their thoughts blended in and affected by this gross misunderstanding.

So they hold a right to further incorperate this mess into the populace, and I hold a right just as well to inflict another view, vastly differing from the things I am discusted with.

Peace.

As I stated, singleminded.

You are ignoring simple facts supported by hard physical evidence (fossil remains, burial sites, tools, etc) to support your opinion in your attempt to discredit a scientific fact.

 

[mickiel]

As I stated, singleminded.

You are ignoring simple facts supported by hard physical evidence (fossil remains, burial sites, tools, etc) to support your opinion in your attempt to discredit a scientific fact.

Fossil remains, tools, burial sites, are not signs of Consciousness. They are signs of instinctual humans who lived only as they could, under restraint. If human evolution were a simple continuity, we could trace it through language. Dating it as best we could. No language in primordal man, none! There was no mammalian evolution, its a false concept. There can be no consciouisness without language, its just not possible. But some of us think that animals are conscious, we forget that consciousness is related in some kind of way, to the cortex of the brain that gives language, learning language. The language evolves, not the human. Because language has evolved, you think humans have.

I disagree with your views.

Peace.

 

[logician]

A case can be made that many animals are at least somewhat self-aware. Animals I think are much more intelligent than we give them credit for, unfortunately some religous dictums that man should have dominion over the earth and its creatures has not done the rest of the animal kingdom any favors.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

They had all that, and still, after some 300,000 to who knows how many millions of years, never progressed to civilization. Never developed Language, never developed transportation, never developed science, never developed educational systems, never developed religion, never developed medicines.

NEVER!

Peace.

One's progressions doesn't demand that they conform to your preconceived world view. If it's not broken don't try to change it. It's been established that they had what they needed for language but we can't be totally sure how they used their vocal ability. All animals and insects on the planet communicate in some way. Now why would they need transportation? There are tribes today who don't use transportation and their societies function very well. You have to understand the life back then. They were hunters and gatherers. They probably hunted in groups in the forest. Remember there were no cars, hoses and buildings so vegetation in certain areas was plentiful. This means it gave them cover to stalk and hunt pray. We can answer the rest of your post here but a lot of this has been covered already and shown to you but you're still making the same statements so there's really nothing else to offer to you that would "convince" you.:help:

 

[LoTrobador]

Fossil remains, tools, burial sites, are not signs of Consciousness. They are signs of instinctual humans who lived only as they could, under restraint.

Burial sites are not signs of consciousness? How many animal species bury their dead?...

 

[painted wolf]

He doesn't want a debate, he just wants to repeat his view over and over without the need of evidence or consideration.

No amount of evidence will change his blind faith and he is proud of it.

wa:do

 

[mickiel]

We can answer the rest of your post here but a lot of this has been covered already and shown to you but you're still making the same statements so there's really nothing else to offer to you that would "convince" you.:help:

Nothing has been offered that I view as concrete convincing. Mammals in general show a wide variety of social groupings, all the way from the solitariness of certain predatory animals to the very close social cohesiveness of others. The latter animals are the more preyed upon, and a social group is itself a genectic design for protection against predators, it was not an adaptation as many believe. The structure of herds in ungulates is relatively simple, utilizing percise genetically designed anatomical and behavioral signals that were for group protection. God designed primordal man to bury its dead, just as a cat will bury its dung.

Language is an organ of perception, not simply a means to communicate. It moves out synchronically into the space of the world, to describe it and perceive it more and more definitively. But language also moves " Diachronically", or through time, and behind our experiences on the basis of Aptic structures in our nervous systems to create abstract concepts whose referents are not observables except in a metaphorical sense. This is how the concept of science was created. Its how societys were created, and its way primordal man never created anything beyond simple tools. They had no language.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[AxisMundi]

Fossil remains, tools, burial sites, are not signs of Consciousness. They are signs of instinctual humans who lived only as they could, under restraint. If human evolution were a simple continuity, we could trace it through language. Dating it as best we could. No language in primordal man, none! There was no mammalian evolution, its a false concept. There can be no consciouisness without language, its just not possible. But some of us think that animals are conscious, we forget that consciousness is related in some kind of way, to the cortex of the brain that gives language, learning language. The language evolves, not the human. Because language has evolved, you think humans have.

I disagree with your views.

Peace.

You do not disagree with "my" views, you disagree with the entire scientific community.

Feel free to show how any of what I listed is "instinctual" and does not require imagination, self awayness, and awareness of the world. And as noted, Neanderthals HAD language. The speech centers were pronounced and they had the equipment in the throat to speak.

And language certainly has nothing to do with Evolution anyways. There are several species of birds that can speak, and great apes have been taught American Sign Language.

And technology builds upon technology. Do you think the inventor of the internal combustion engine invented the whole thing? NO, he utilized preexisting technology in a new form, the internal combustion engine.

Thanks to the earl and medieval Church, we lost much technology from earlier peoples, everything from mechanical computers to flush toilets to advanced medicine and surgery.

BTW, Evolution has much more to support it as a fact, from DNA/RNA sequencing, severtal dating techniques, and simply too much hard physical evidence.

 

[mickiel]

You do not disagree with "my" views, you disagree with the entire scientific community.
.

I disagree with both. Primordal man not only had no language, they had no Poetry and Song. They then had no music. We sing our verbal thoughts, Primordal men had no verbal thoughts.

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

There can be no poetry or music without Consciousness. The reason why primordal man had no music or poetry, is because they had no consciousness. In poetry, you need Consciousness to improvise symphonies of unambiguous beauty that are loitering in your head. It is the same with Music.

Nothing in Poetry or Music came from Cromagnon or neanderthals. Nothing.

Because there was nothing there.

Peace.

 

[painted wolf]

you don't want to go into any of it... you just want a platform to keep repeating yourself.

For anyone who is interested in the evidence... oldest prehistoric flute found so far, 35,000 years old.
Oldest Musical Instrument Found | Popular Science

wa:do

 

[mickiel]

you don't want to go into any of it... you just want a platform to keep repeating yourself.

For anyone who is interested in the evidence... oldest prehistoric flute found so far, 35,000 years old.
Oldest Musical Instrument Found | Popular Science

wa:do

I looked at this so called " Flute", carved from a Vulture bone that is 8.5 inches long. And the holes carved into it. I certainly don't believe its real, and no human bones have been found anywhere near it. And no other musical instrument from that era has ever been found. Certainly not enough to convince me. They didnot have the consciousness to even conceive of doing such a thing.

A vulture bone. Good greif.

Peace.

Peace

 

[painted wolf]

Bird bones make excellent flutes and are quite commonly used as such... other objects such as sculptures and paintings were found in the same place and time. Access : A female figurine from the basal Aurignacian of Hohle Fels Cave in southwestern Germany : Nature

Other ancient flutes.
CBC News - Arts - Archeologists discover ice age dwellers' flute
BBC News | Sci/Tech | The bone age flute

Naturally it won't matter to you as you already have your mind made up and any evidence to the contrary simply doesn't matter.

wa:do

 

[mickiel]

What I question Wolf, is that a primordal man would have the wherewithall to concive in his mind music. Then further concive and PLAN on using a bone from a bird to accomplish sound! This must first be in his consciousness, which is where music starts. You are believing that this primordal man first conceived of music in his mind, then planned on accomplishing it by creating his instrument. Then he thought of using a bone from a vulture, knew in his mind the sound that bone would produce, if he made holes in it, and blew into it.

You are exprecting me to believe this, because you do. A primordal man, planning on creating music because he first concieved it in his consciousness, he decided on a flute. Just from his primordal mind he created a wind instrument.

No man, you assume far too much, and I want to go into why your mind does that.

Peace.

 

[LoTrobador]

I consider any human that lived before Adam, as primordal.

How about Cavemen / Primordial Men being not ancestors, but descendants of Adam?

 

[Katzpur]

I have often been accused of not debating, which I disagree with. But I will make a " Conscious effort" to dispute that accusation in this thread. I am interested in Ancient history, and the bible is part of that in my view. I never have believed that civilization is just 2000 years old or that Adam was the first human created. Obviously we had Nenderthal and Cromagnon prehistoric humans, obviously. But its my contention that they couldnot have had Consciousness, as we have it. And I don't think Consciousness is complettely understood.

If God would have given them Consciousness, Civilization would have started with them. Language would have began with them. Mathmatics would have began with them, Government would have began with them, Science would have began with them. None of these things began with them, so I see no way possible they had anything beyond an " Instinctual Consciousness."

Peace.

Since I believe that animals have a consciousness that goes deeper than instinct, I would have to say that pre-historic man did, too. I believe that Adam was the first man to have had the same kind of consciousness (i.e. a human spirit) that we have, but that doesn't mean that all human-like life before him had no consciousness whatsoever.