Dave Watchman
Active Member
Like a journey.
In a foreign land.
This is not our Home.
Like the Israelites wandering in the wilderness.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Convergence Of Signs
- Thread starter InChrist
- Start date
Like a journey.
In a foreign land.
This is not our Home.
Like the Israelites wandering in the wilderness.
Awe yes to mecca! To Varanasi! To Thebes!
Use the terms vacation, visiting, migration but the gods are not requiring. Survival is a reason to migrate but that is natural.
The universe is our home when the absolute of truth is understood, than all of it is real.
All of us are wondering, trying to figure out what is real. As politically incorrect as I may sound, please be certain, no god gave any land to any families. We are all brethren as conscious life within this period.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
That does not look like a prophecy. What you are doing instead is to find verses in a largely poetic book that can be reinterpreted as a prophecy. That is not how prophecy works if you want to claim that it is convincing.
That is the problem with prophecies in the Bible. Believers are willing to call almost anything that roughly matches their beliefs to be prophecy. It clearly is not. And then they will not admit to the most obviously failed prophecies, such as the Tyre prophecy.
A person has to have already have boughten into the nonsense of the Bible to even consider most of that prophecy. And the problem is that you are not consistent with other religions. They can play that game too. But when it comes to other religions you apply strict rational reasons as to what is a prophecy and what is not.
InChrist
Free4ever
Thanks for sharing. No doubt in my mind that my concern, any finite human concern, falls way short of the love God has for His creation.That's awesome. Our redemption draweth nigh. But do we worry about those who don't make it. Like what the other poster said in the thread. I was looking at this extra Biblical book.
2 Esdras 8 - RSVA - Bible Study Tools
2 Esdras 8 He answered me and said, "The Most High made this world for the sake of many, but the world to come for the sake of few. But I tell you a parable, Ezra. Just as, when you ask the earth, it will tell you that it provides very much clay from which eart... Read verse in Revised Standard...www.biblestudytools.com
Ezra quoting God:
"For indeed I will not concern myself about the fashioning of those who have sinned, or about their death, their judgment, or their destruction; but I will rejoice over the creation of the righteous, over their pilgrimage also, and their salvation, and their receiving their reward.
I was thinking about this part:
"For you come far short of being able to love my creation more than I love it.
And this from the next chapter:
"He answered me and said, "Measure carefully in your mind, and when you see that a certain part of the predicted signs are past then you will know that it is the very time when the Most High is about to visit the world which he has made."So when there shall appear in the world earthquakes, tumult of peoples, intrigues of nations, wavering of leaders, confusion of princes, then you will know that it was of these that the Most High spoke from the days that were of old, from the beginning.
Audie
Veteran Member
Ma y finds its a valuable life skill to
be able to didtinguich between knowledge
and belief.
It helps them avoid uttering similar false claims.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
A prophecy is noting more than a prediction. The books of the Prophets in the Old Testament contains predictions of what would happen in a future age. Jews believe that age is when their messiah will come and fulfill the prophecies. Christians believe that age is when Jesus, who thye believe is the messiah, will return and fulfill those prophecies. Baha'is believe that Christ has already returned in the person of Baha'u'llah so we believe some of those prophecies have already been fulfilled. Not all of those prophecies have been fulfilled yet since they refer to the messianic age which is a time span of no less than 1000 years from when Christ returned.
The Jews, the Christians, and the Baha'is all understand the following prophecy to mean something different, and we all believe we know what it means.
And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them....And they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God." Amos: 9:14-15
There are also a lot of prophecies in the New Testament. Christians believe they refer to the return of the same man Jesus, but Baha'is believe they refer to the return of Christ, which was Baha'u'llah. If I wanted to embark upon a verse war I can easily prove that Jesus never promised to return to earth, not even once in the entire NT, but then Christians will find verses that they believe says that Jesus promised to return. There is no point arguing about this because Christians are going to wait for Jesus to return until they die since that is what they want, the same Jesus in the same body to come down from heaven in the clouds, even though that is impossible since there are no physical bodies in heaven, only spiritual bodies.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God did not write the Bible. The most we can say is that the books of the Prophets were inspired by God, but since they were written by men, not even by Prophets, there is a lot of room for error and even twisting of the truth, to say what they hoped for.
I believe that everyone is capable of knowing what is real, the truth, but that does not mean they can use that capability.
How do you think people can know what is real, the truth?
Dave Watchman
Active Member
Well there's different types of Bible Prophecy.
The different types have different styles.
Five Types of Bible Prophecy:
1) Local Prophecy
Prophecy that pertains to a specific place, people or time. These would include Noah's flood, or Jonah's visit to the people of Nineveh. Maybe that Old Time King who saw his shadow move backwards, and Moses' dealings with Pharaoh and the curses of Egypt. Even when Jesus said to Peter: "Before the rooster crows today, you will disown me three times." You can think of more.
2) Messianic Prophecy
These had to do specifically with our Lord's first Visitation.
Like Isaiah 52
"He Was Pierced for Our Transgressions
Behold, my servant shall act wisely;
he shall be high and lifted up,
and shall be exalted.
"As many were astonished at you—
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—
so shall he sprinkle many nations
"Kings shall shut their mouths because of him,
for that which has not been told them they see,
and that which they have not heard they understand.
3) Day of the Lord Prophecy
Very peculiar in their structure. Like Isaiah 13. John MacArthur calls them near/far prophecies. In a Day of the Lord Prophecy the prophet can begin in an ancient Day of the Lord event to do with the Babylonians, and then can seem to peer down through the millennia to the final and ultimate Day of the Lord event that will include all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luke 21 is like Isaiah 13 but in reverse. Here the Prophet begins at the culmination of the event, but then at verse 12 (But before all this), then backspaces to the original Day where the Lord will act, then at verse 25 concludes with the culmination. The chapter is split into thirds.
4) Judaic Prophecy
These are CONDITIONAL in nature. Prophecies that pertain specifically to Ancient Israel. IF you do this, then I will do that. IF they put away the bodies of their dead kings, THEN show them the plan of the Temple.
"If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God
5) Apocalyptic Prophecy
Apocalyptic Prophesy has unique characteristics. These are the end time prophecies that I would be worried about now. These prophecies hold to chronological order. Each of these have a beginning point in time, and an ending point in time. In Revelation, when that chronological order is broken, and the subject matter changes, a new prophecy will begin. There are 17 Apocalyptic prophecies, and 18 prophetic time periods, in the Books of Daniel and Revelation.
All major religions have prophecies of the end times and the figure involved. All the prophecies are oriented around that religion. For those that follow Avatar Meher Baba, the prophecy of a 6th plane (saint) called Nilkanth can be noted:
Nilkanth ...began to talk again, remarking, “Bombs will fall in the north, south and in all directions. Then, man-made world will finish and God-made world will revive.”
... Nilkanth would talk to himself, once uttering prophetically in Hindi: “The earth will split! Men will become helpless and shelterless like beasts roaming on a plateau.
“After dying in large numbers men will take rebirth. Man will be compelled to eat grass and leaves. Old human habitations will be wiped out and new ones established. The indigenous languages like Hindi will be replaced by the English language. Rites, rituals and religious ceremonies will be eliminated. A very big cloud will appear.”
Meher Baba indicated “The Universe will be shaken.”
Audie
Veteran Member
You left out "failed prophecy".
And the one about the flood is spectacularly
ridiculous, as there never was any world wide flood.
Last edited:
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It is a bad sign when you have to refer to the fictitious events in the Bible to make your case.
Except that is not messianic prophecy. That is an example of verse that was reinterpreted after the fact.
I am just letting it go right now. Here is the problem. You are trying to use prophecy as evidence and if it fails from a rational viewpoint they are not evidence. A lot of these you accept only because you already believe the myths. If you want to claim to have more than mere myths and playing fan fiction games with the Bible you need something a bit more solid.
Here is a very helpful article for you. You can easily see how it makes sense to use these standards when you look at the prophecies of other religions. To be consistent you have to apply them to your own as well:
Biblical prophecies
There are numerous Biblical prophecies, some vaguely fulfilled, others strangely unfulfilled. Of course, like the Bible, the Quran also contains what its followers maintain are fulfilled prophesies. Christians tend to find these unconvincing or silly — which is coincidentally the attitude which...
Audie
Veteran Member
Hey, phony prediction of phony event.It is a bad sign when you have to refer to the fictitious events in the Bible to make your case.
Except that is not messianic prophecy. That is an example of verse that was reinterpreted after the fact.
I am just letting it go right now. Here is the problem. You are trying to use prophecy as evidence and if it fails from a rational viewpoint they are not evidence. A lot of these you accept only because you already believe the myths. If you want to claim to have more than mere myths and playing fan fiction games with the Bible you need something a bit more solid.
Here is a very helpful article for you. You can easily see how it makes sense to use these standards when you look at the prophecies of other religions. To be consistent you have to apply them to your own as well:
Biblical prophecies
There are numerous Biblical prophecies, some vaguely fulfilled, others strangely unfulfilled. Of course, like the Bible, the Quran also contains what its followers maintain are fulfilled prophesies. Christians tend to find these unconvincing or silly — which is coincidentally the attitude which...rationalwiki.org
Makes sense.
What do you want?
Dave Watchman
Active Member
I forgot I was supposed to be making a case.
Like when Jesus on the cross in Matthew said my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
A fulfillment of Psalm 22:
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish?
I looked at the Wiki note. Didn't phase me at all.
Because unlike the Quran, it's not just the Biblical Prophecies we have, there are also 18 Prophetic time periods. These are where the price action makes for market commentary. Like technical analysis, it's much easier to find the Biblical time periods first, then we can know where the Dragon chased the Woman.
Find the 7 and 62 weeks, and you'll know when to be looking for His star in the east.
Unfortunately, I'm afraid that the time to post the empirical is past.
We can just watch it all unfold before our eyes.
Dave Watchman
Active Member
Sounds like Confucius say.
You can write fortune cookie.
"May you find it a valuable life skill to be able to distinguish between knowledge and belief.
"It helps them avoid uttering similar false claims.
What failed prophecy?
Harold Camping prophecy can't count.
Only Bible Prophecy counts.
Count 7 and 62 weeks, until Messiah the Prince.
457BC to 27AD.
And early in Mark Jesus said the "time' is fulfilled.
Fit like a glove.
Audie
Veteran Member
Whatevs.
But go a little easy on the racial crap,
you've got enough going wrong already.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
You posted as if you were trying to.
So what? The verses were not about Jesus. Not only that there are clear instances of copying from verses in the Old Testament to make it look as if it was fulfilled prophecy. Sometimes the Greek educated scholars that wrote the Gospels made mistakes since they were using the Septuagint for much of their work.
He survived two close calls in WW1. One was surviving a mustard gas attack that left him blind for a period of time, but he eventually recovered. Another was his position in the trenches was hit by artillery fire as he had just left the position to get coffee. Everyone at the position was killed. After the war he tried to make a living as an artist. He was rejected from art school, and through a series of events ended up in political activism.
Reality doesn't seem to mean real in your use of the word. In reality it means what is true, real, and verifiable. Religious concepts seldom meet the standard of REAL. Look at the rest of your sentence.
The only reason to believe this is to believe what we are told by other Christians. There are no facts that suggest this is true in reality. It can be true to your religious beliefs, but as we know religious beliefs don't rely on facts, or what is real. The net result of your claims here is that reality is illusion. Ironically atheists who actually acknowledge reality are more qualified to be Christian than believers.
So the question is why you use language that is clearly inconsistent with reality, but you are trying to claim that your belief is based on reality. Would that be for self-deception? How elese can a believer justify beliefs that are contrary to fact and science?
There is no sincere person who would believe in such an implausible idea. Unless you consider the 9-11 hijackers as being sincere in their beliefs, this kind of irrational religious committment is only working to deceive the self about irrational religious ideas.
Yet my questioning is why so many Christians act with cruelty and indifference to suffering. With all the idealism I hear Christians claim for themselves why are so many mean and indifferent? It's obvious the belief in Jesus guarantees no moral advantage. The individual has to depend on their own moral wits to actually be moral. I suggest this is why atheists are able to explain why they have certain moral views better than most believers can. I asked you about the immorality of exposing children to ideas they can't understand and may cause distress and you didn't get it. This is the moral dilemma I see with so many believers, you value your dogma more than children. To my mind that itself is immoral. No child, or humans, is worth less than any ideas, including ideas about jesus. We see whta hapvens when a society led by dogma values ideas over people, and that is how the Holocaust was justified. The idea was worth more than the Jews. The Jews had to be exterminated to keep the ideas alive. That is a moral failure no matter what the idea.
Do you really think Christians serve God, and not yourselves as believers? Look how I references self-service in my posts. Dogmatists seldom see beyond their dogma. That renders these humasn as little more than obedient ghosts, not capable of any moral judgment. This is how Christians could murder Jews so easily during the day, then go home to their families at night. That Jews did not celebrate Christmas made it easier for the murderers to kill on Christmas eve, and then celebrate Christmas the day after.
And look at how Christians see themselves as "saved". The rest of us? Damned to hell.
Yet look at you rejecting what science concludes via facts and an objective method. Why can't you be humble like Jesus? The pride of interpreting Genesis literally when even Jews don't is something you need to explain to us, on your thread.
Only because he got people to follow his bad ideas. How many bad ideas are you following from Christianity that isn't what Jesus taught? You are treating these Christian leaders as God. You said a Christian needs to acknowledge reality, yet you fail at that in so many ways.
Last edited:
It's not just Christians. We have Buddhists who don't follow the path of Buddha and so forth. This to me is the time Muhammad prophecised would come Sayings of The Prophet | Islamic Values
The time is near in which nothing will remain of Islam but its name, and of the Quran but its mere appearance, and the mosques of Muslims will be
destitute of of knowledge and worship; and the learned will be the worst people under the heavens; and contention and strife will issue from them, and it will return upon themselves.
...
Ye follower of Muhammad, I swear by the Lord, if ye did but know what I know of the future state, verily ye would laugh little and cry much.
...
Men will be liars towards the end of the world; and will relate such stories as neither you nor your fathers ever heard. Then avoid them, that they may not lead you astray and throw you into contention and strife.
It's also to me the end of the kali yuga, dark/iron age where strife, war, hypocrisy, greed, lying, cheating and other lower motivations are fully expressed.
Last edited:
Audie
Veteran Member
Almost like religion doesn't deliver on its promise.