Convince me that God is loving

[Alien826]

I am not sure God isn't loving, I am just not sure He is loving.
Can you tell me why it matters so much that God is loving?
What difference does it make?

OK, I'll finally try to answer the original question.

The difference is critical. Imagine you are in a room, strapped down on an operating table, surrounded by various medical implements. A man you don't know is preparing to use the implements on you. He may be a benevolent surgeon or a psychopath that is about to enjoy torturing you. What follows may be similar as far as your suffering goes, but which would you prefer?

During my brief (several years, but limited and over now) excursion into religious belief, I had convinced myself that I was in contact with "something" that could loosely be called "god". I realized that I knew very little about the being, apart from the fact that my life had already improved. I decided to approach the whole thing stepwise. I would ask for answers and wait for replies, and not expect to progress too quickly. Anyway, I was well aware that I did not know enough about the nature of this being to know if it was benevolent or not. I decided to assume benevolence, not because it was particularly logical to do so, but because the alternative, being in the power of an evil being, was too horrible to contemplate.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Anyway, I was well aware that I did not know enough about the nature of this being to know if it was benevolent or not. I decided to assume benevolence, not because it was particularly logical to do so, but because the alternative, being in the power of an evil being, was too horrible to contemplate.

It certainly is..
..to think that G-d is a liar, and would reward evil, and punish righteousness, is ... well .. EVIL.

 

[Trailblazer]

We all need God's practical love that He gives and offers us. I'm not talking about a warm fuzzy feeling that from God I'm talking about life and food and etc etc that we have and most important into the future, the offer of forgiveness through Jesus.
(John 3:16)
But if you don't want to know about what God has done for us with an outstretched hand for us, then nobody can convince you by telling you.

God gave us forgiveness through Jesus, but God does not give us life and food. Our parents gave us life and we have to work for our food. Whatever God does for us comes through the Manifestations of God. God does not have an outstretched hand because God is not a human being.

The primary thing that God has done for us was manifesting Himself by sending the Manifestations of God.
Jesus was one such Manifestation of God, and having completed His mission on earth, He ascended to heaven. Now God has sent humanity another Messenger, Baha'u'llah. I have to agree with @loverofhumanity that this is God's Greatest Gift, but I would extend that to say that Jesus was just as great. They each had an important mission, and the mission of Jesus laid the foundation for the mission of Baha'u'llah. All the Manifestations of God (Messengers) had a mission, but some had a more important mission than others.

“Know that the attributes of perfection, the splendor of the divine bounties, and the lights of inspiration are visible and evident in all the Holy Manifestations; but the glorious Word of God, Christ, and the Greatest Name, Bahá’u’lláh, are manifestations and evidences which are beyond imagination, for They possess all the perfections of the former Manifestations; and more than that, They possess some perfections which make the other Manifestations dependent upon Them. So all the Prophets of Israel were centers of inspiration; Christ also was a receiver of inspiration, but what a difference between the inspiration of the Word of God and the revelations of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Elijah!” Some Answered Questions, pp. 149-150

 

[Trailblazer]

Tb knows this. She is just having fun.

That's right, I am having fun while I work.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes she threw out the challenge and knows that nobody can convince her, it is up to her.

That is not necessarily true. As no man is an island, we learn from each other.
I learned something from @Quintessence that has caused me to rethink how God might be loving after all.

Convince me that God is loving

 

[Trailblazer]

It Aint Necessarily So said: ↑
I really don't understand what keeps you a believer if you see this god as unloving and indolent, and which belief brings you no peace or comfort.

***WINNER***

First, I do not believe that God is unloving, I simply question if God is loving, and if so how that is demonstrated.
Second, I do not believe that God is indolent, only humans can be indolent.
Third, I do not worship God to "get something" for myself. I worship God because God is worthy of worship. Whether God is loving or not doesn't matter since God has other attributes that make Him worthy of worship.

Today my good friend @Truthseeker reminded me of why we should worship God.

“WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God’s creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.

Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.

Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God’s good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God’s favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom.”

Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 77-78

 

[Trailblazer]

Why wouldn't it? I have no challenges now except the ones I create for myself to meet some need (volunteering, learning, stimulation). That's the life we aim for - the one where we feel safe, secure, loved, have leisure and freedom from want, anxiety, fear, loneliness, regret, shame and the like.

You should not have to be overcoming challenges at this stage of your life because you are retired so you should be enjoying life. You already overcame a lot of challenges to become a physician and you served humanity in your work so you did a lot more than most people do. The fact that you are still volunteering says a lot about your character.

I hope to someday feel safe, secure, loved, have leisure and freedom from want, anxiety, fear, loneliness and the like. Not having that is not related to my religion, it is related to my lot in life, what my life has been like for so many years and what it is like now. I cannot just snap my fingers and change my situation but hopefully it will improve over time.

 

[Trailblazer]

Really? So if you're not depressed, how would you describe your emotional self? As happy? Or in between happy and depressed maybe sad?

I am happy sometimes and I am sad at other times, and I am worried at other times, because I have things to worry about.
I would be abnormal if I was not worried at all given my life situation.

Why should I be happy all the time? Why do people think they have to be happy all the time?

 

[Trailblazer]

Really? And you don't know the difference between sadness, subclinical depression, and clinical depression?

I do know the difference and I also know my own state of mind better than strangers on a forum know it.
Only God knows my state of mind better than I do because God is all-knowing.

“Consider, moreover, how frequently doth man become forgetful of his own self, whilst God remaineth, through His all-encompassing knowledge, aware of His creature, and continueth to shed upon him the manifest radiance of His glory. It is evident, therefore, that, in such circumstances, He is closer to him than his own self. He will, indeed, so remain for ever, for, whereas the one true God knoweth all things, perceiveth all things, and comprehendeth all things, mortal man is prone to err, and is ignorant of the mysteries that lie enfolded within him….”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186

 

[Trailblazer]

But you're not depressed. OK. And you apparently feel the need to see a counselor. OK.

People see counselors for reasons other than depression.
I have been seeing a counselor for anxiety and to help me decide what to do with my life, now that I am all alone.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is your counselor qualified to provide diagnosis?

Of course she is. She is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and has worked in the field for over 30 years.
If she thought I was depressed she would have recommended antidepressants. She never has because she knows I can manage without them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry, but no.
People who are clinically depressed have trouble eating and sleeping or doing anything at all and many cannot even work.

What's your point? What's your credential? I have an MA in Psychology.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, I'll finally try to answer the original question.

The difference is critical. Imagine you are in a room, strapped down on an operating table, surrounded by various medical implements. A man you don't know is preparing to use the implements on you. He may be a benevolent surgeon or a psychopath that is about to enjoy torturing you. What follows may be similar as far as your suffering goes, but which would you prefer?

During my brief (several years, but limited and over now) excursion into religious belief, I had convinced myself that I was in contact with "something" that could loosely be called "god". I realized that I knew very little about the being, apart from the fact that my life had already improved. I decided to approach the whole thing stepwise. I would ask for answers and wait for replies, and not expect to progress too quickly. Anyway, I was well aware that I did not know enough about the nature of this being to know if it was benevolent or not. I decided to assume benevolence, not because it was particularly logical to do so, but because the alternative, being in the power of an evil being, was too horrible to contemplate.

I am fine with God being benevolent, I am hunky-dory fine, I only have a problem with God being loving.
It makes sense that if God is omnipotent, God had better also be benevolent.

However, God does not have to be loving in order to be benevolent. People just want God to be loving so they believe he is loving. And they want God to be loving so they can feel loved by God. This is psych 101 stuff.

What does it mean anyway to say that God is loving? That is an important question.

I might believe that God is loving if believers would stop trying to shove that belief down my throat. If they knew anything about psychology they would know that trying to force someone to believe something usually has the reverse effect.

 

[YoursTrue]

God gave us forgiveness through Jesus, but God does not give us life and food. Our parents gave us life and we have to work for our food. Whatever God does for us comes through the Manifestations of God. God does not have an outstretched hand because God is not a human being.

The primary thing that God has done for us was manifesting Himself by sending the Manifestations of God.
Jesus was one such Manifestation of God, and having completed His mission on earth, He ascended to heaven. Now God has sent humanity another Messenger, Baha'u'llah. I have to agree with @loverofhumanity that this is God's Greatest Gift, but I would extend that to say that Jesus was just as great. They each had an important mission, and the mission of Jesus laid the foundation for the mission of Baha'u'llah. All the Manifestations of God (Messengers) had a mission, but some had a more important mission than others.

“Know that the attributes of perfection, the splendor of the divine bounties, and the lights of inspiration are visible and evident in all the Holy Manifestations; but the glorious Word of God, Christ, and the Greatest Name, Bahá’u’lláh, are manifestations and evidences which are beyond imagination, for They possess all the perfections of the former Manifestations; and more than that, They possess some perfections which make the other Manifestations dependent upon Them. So all the Prophets of Israel were centers of inspiration; Christ also was a receiver of inspiration, but what a difference between the inspiration of the Word of God and the revelations of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Elijah!” Some Answered Questions, pp. 149-150

Going back to your original question, some do believe that God will have bad people that are not "saved" suffer forever in some place called hell. What do you believe? Will the unsaved suffer mercilessly forever in hell?

 

[Trailblazer]

Going back to your original question, some do believe that God will have bad people that are not "saved" suffer forever in some place called hell. What do you believe? Will the unsaved suffer mercilessly forever in hell?

I do not believe in saved and unsaved, since I do not believe there is anything to be saved from, except our lower selfish nature. I believe selfish people and those who committed heinous crimes against others make their own hell, God does not send them there. Conversely, good people who loved God and loved and served their fellow men will be in heaven, which is not a geographical location but rather a state of the soul. We can be in heaven or hell in this life or the afterlife.

I do not think that souls are confined to hell for eternity. I think that souls from heaven can come down to hell and try to rescue souls in hell, but most souls will choose to remain in hell since that is all they know and are comfortable with. This is not according to my religious beliefs, it is just what I believe from other sources.

 

[Jimmy]

Convince a 70 yr old that God is loving?

Pass

 

[Ella S.]

That doesn't make sense Trailblazer.
Need to feel love, in order to love God?
If that were true, here is what would happen....
When we suffer, we would do like you, complain that God is not loving.
Remember Job? He suffered severely. Yet his wife's "reasoable" advice was considered as stupid.
When we suffer, we would reject God, as unloving, and because of not feeling loved by God, we would not love God.

Maybe you should re-read Job. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

[Ella S.]

There is good and bad in creation, that is the problem. Christians and Baha'is only want to look at the good, but that is illogical.

Yes, I agree completely.

I've been trying to make my strongest case for why God is loving simply to play devil's advocate... or, wait, I guess in this case God's advocate? The problem is that I can't really think of any good argument for why God is loving.

At least, none that make sense in the modern age. Back when God was thought to be a bronze-skinned guy on a throne carried by cherubim literally living in the sky, it made a lot more sense, ironically. He was just a sky father archetype. He could love all of humanity just the same way a father loves his children, because he wasn't made out to be omnipotent, omniscient, or omnibenevolent. He was just a creator god, small "g," with none of the bells and whistles.

You could still approach God in the same way, just more abstract and less falsifiable. Instead of living in the sky on a throne made of ophanim, maybe he's an abstract force that originates from some other plane of existence. He could still be responsible for creating the universe, and he could still love everyone, but maybe he just doesn't have the power or know-how to help us the way we need it all the time.

That sort of God, a slightly impotent (but still unfathomably powerful) being, is far more sympathetic of a portrait. It's also a lot closer to how scriptures actually depict his actions and reasoning. I mean, the guy lost Jonah for a whole 3 days and couldn't find Adam or Eve in Eden when they hid from him. Iblis/Lucifer, his own right-hand man, knew God better than maybe any other being to have ever existed and still thought he could challenge his power.

The impotence makes a little bit more sense in that narrative.

 

[Jimmy]

In all sincerety whatever it is that you seek I hope you find it. Also if you're not seeking that's cool too.

 

[Ella S.]

I do not think that souls are confined to hell for eternity. I think that souls from heaven can come down to hell and try to rescue souls in hell, but most souls will choose to remain in hell since that is all they know and are comfortable with. This is not according to my religious beliefs, it is just what I believe from other sources.

Interestingly, this was a view that was likely popular among early Christians. The Apocalypse of Peter, which was widely accepted as inspired scripture for centuries and inspired Dante's Inferno, ends with a prayer meant to offer salvation to those in Hell. It was eventually condemned by heresiologists for coming too close to justifying universalism.