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Convince me that God is loving

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It's nice to be honest about how you feel with God also, as I imagine you are.
I think about it this way. God needs no benefits so it doesn't matter if I give Him the 'benefit' if the doubt.
It is humans who want to give God benefits but God does not need them.

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
They start to believe God hates them as soon as they get old enough for church.
And then they are not supposed to be confused :confused: when people keep telling them that God loves them?
At least the Baha'i Faith never tells them that God hates them, only that God loves them.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Well, for some people, holy communion involves some bland, tasteless wafer. Donut holes are pretty tasty and seem to work well with holey communion. Do you think God would mind?

It is not for us to appropriate the things of god. Those who eat donut holes in any form are robbing god of that which is due to him and only him.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Now I'm puzzled. I would say that "loving" and "benevolent" are very close to the same thing. I certainly use them interchangeably. The word "benevolent" has roots meaning "wishing well". If you love someone don't you wish good things for them?

Perhaps you can tell me how you define the words?
Benevolent: well meaning and kindly.
benevolent means - Google Search

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God is omnibenevolent as some atheists claim.
It is important to note that God is not benevolent towards everyone, He picks and chooses.

“No God is there but Him. All creation and its empire are His. He bestoweth His gifts on whom He will, and from whom He will He withholdeth them. He is the Great Giver, the Most Generous, the Benevolent.” Gleanings, p. 278

Loving: feeling or showing love or great care.
loving means - Google Search

God could be well-meaning and kindly and NOT be loving, since love is more than a feeling, it is an action.

We cannot know how God feels but we have to ask how God would show love or great care. I just stumbled upon an article when doing a Google search.

Why does God love us? | GotQuestions.org

I am going to quote a few excerpts from the article.

“This short question is among the most profound questions ever asked. And no human would ever be able to answer it sufficiently.”
  • The angle this article is coming from is that why would God love us because we are so undeserving of His love. Of course, this is based upon the Christian belief that we are all sinners. I do not buy that because that is not a Baha’i belief. At least Bahais don’t believe we are sinners in the same way that Christians believe it.
  • The question that can never be answered sufficiently is why God is love.
First John 4:8 and 16 tell us that “God is love.” Never was a more important declaration made than this—God is love”
  • I am sorry but I cannot believe that just because the Bible says it. If God is love, need to know WHY God is love. How can people be so gullible?
Since it is God’s essential nature to love, He demonstrates His love by lavishing it on undeserving people who are in rebellion against Him.
  • Okay, now we are getting down to the nitty-gritty. HOW does God lavish His love on undeserving people?
Oh wait! We have an answer.

“God’s love is not a sappy, sentimental, romantic feeling. Rather, it is agape love, the love of self-sacrifice. He demonstrates this sacrificial love by sending His Son to the cross to pay the penalty for our sin (1 John 4:10),”
  • Sorry but no. God did not sacrifice anything, Jesus did. For one thing, God does not have a Son since God is not a human being, so God cannot sacrifice His Son as Christians claim. For another thing, God cannot sacrifice anything because nothing can diminish the things that God possesses.
“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess. Gleanings, p. 148

Back to the article:

“God’s love is personal. He knows each of us individually and loves us personally. His is a mighty love that has no beginning and no end. It is this experiencing of God’s love that distinguishes Christianity from all other religions. Why does God love us? It is because of who He is: "God is love."
  • I love it. How does God’s love distinguish Christianity from all the other religions? Does God only love Christians? :rolleyes:
  • God loves us because God is love, but nobody can answer the question: Why is God love? The only answer Christians have is “because the Bible says so” and the only answer Baha'is have is "because Baha'u'llah said so."
I rest my case. Now I'm headed for the atheist-agnostic kiosk to sign up before I lose my mind!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why would anyone be benevolent if they did not love the object of their benevolence? I define love as the state where one is willing to take risks for and share scarce resources with others in order to promote their wellbeing. If that's not your purpose, your act is not benevolent. It is either selfish or done for no reason.
God would not 'necessarily' have to love humans in order to be benevolent towards them or vice versa.
As I see it, benevolence is an attribute of God but love is an action.
I addressed benevolence and loving in this post: #304 Trailblazer
That's in the tradition of softening Christian hell theology. In the evolution of the Abrahamic deity, he has gone from the angry, harshly judgmental, strongman to the gentler god of the New Testament that stood by the old hell theology that characterizes Christianity, to the new god, who would never design a torture pit and gratuitously subject souls to endless suffering. This god is becoming more humanist, and that is a trend in the right direction.
I think that God was always more humanist than the way He is depicted in the Old Testament. I believe the Old Testament is anthropomorphism.

An attribute of God is unchanging, so God cannot go from nasty to nice. God has always been judgmental and wrathful when that is appropriate, we see that in the Qur'an, but see also see other attributes such as benevolence and loving.
Great question, but I think you know the answer. Once you decide that this god is good, then whatever we like comes from God, and everything else is either actually good for us even if we can't see why with our puny human minds, or just not God's fault. Notice that our puny human minds are excellent judges of what's actually and obviously good like blue skies, but that man is in possession of too puny a mind to be competent at making negative moral judgments unless they don't involve judging the deity. Man is also excellent at identifying and condemning sin, but only in man - not the deity.
Yes, I know the answer, and it is as you said. God is always good in the believer's eyes. Anything good is attributed to God and anything bad is ..... well, they have no answer, even though it is in their own Bible.

Isaiah 45:7 NIRV
I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.


A believer can only see the good things God is responsible for and they are blind to everything else.
That said, I don't believe that God can sin because it doesn't make sense. Only humans can sin.

The best I can say is that I question whether God is loving since there is no evidence of such, and as I said in the post I cited above, even if God is benevolent, He is not omnibenevolent.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
True, the person may be convinced, as in "now he believes what I say"

BUT

I was talking about proof. Proof is part of the material world, emotions,mind and science, proof is not part of the Spiritual world.
Hence, proof doesn't apply to Spiritual matters (Spirirituality (God, love) is beyond the mind), hence asking someone for proof, means that the person is ignorant about this.

There are 2 ways to convince (which was asked for in the OP) someone:
a) Proof: impossible for Spiritual matters
b) Faith based: useful for Spiritual matters

The OP person, like you said, has a problem with Faith, so option b) won't work, hence I provided her with the info, that proof won't work for Spiritual matters

I think this is important for @Trailblazer to understand and accept, otherwise she will keep turning in circels and hoops, and asking us the same question (different wording maybe), but never get an answer, and get frustrated
I respect what you say here, but for a person who has investigated the Baha'i Faith specifically, investigated the claims of Baha'u'llah who claims to have infallible knowledge of God, and they accept that claim, if they look at what Baha'u'llah says, with faith and also reason, then they can be convinced of some things when it is pointed out to them from the Baha'i Writings. I know I have convinced @Trailblazer of some things this way, but she has a special problem with suffering of people, which, by the way, shows me she has compassion for people, and this is praiseworthy, she has a hard time reconciling this suffering the teaching that God is loving. She is more rationally based than faith based, so this is something I have not been able to crack. But she has explained to me patiently recently that she doesn't have to believe that God is loving for her to function well in life. She has gone through suffering, but apparently she doesn't cope any less well because she has this view. Why argue any more if I can't change anything, and she's okay with this belief?
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
Benevolent: well meaning and kindly.
benevolent means - Google Search

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God is omnibenevolent as some atheists claim.

Just a correction, atheists don't claim that God is anything. How could they? They take what theists claim and point out inconsistencies. Noted that not all theists make that claim.

It is important to note that God is not benevolent towards everyone, He picks and chooses.

“No God is there but Him. All creation and its empire are His. He bestoweth His gifts on whom He will, and from whom He will He withholdeth them. He is the Great Giver, the Most Generous, the Benevolent.” Gleanings, p. 278

It's interesting to hear him call God "the Most Generous" while only giving to those that he wants to and not to others. Actually I fit that description, so I guess I'm the most generous too. There may be some qualification somewhere though?

Loving: feeling or showing love or great care.
loving means - Google Search

God could be well-meaning and kindly and NOT be loving, since love is more than a feeling, it is an action.

Actually, as quotation says, it's both a feeling and an action, depending on how it's used.

As you go on to discuss, someone can claim to be benevolent or loving (I still feel there is little difference between the two words), but it is by his actions that we judge the reality of that feeling.

We cannot know how God feels but we have to ask how God would show love or great care. I just stumbled upon an article when doing a Google search.

Why does God love us? | GotQuestions.org

I am going to quote a few excerpts from the article.

“This short question is among the most profound questions ever asked. And no human would ever be able to answer it sufficiently.”
  • The angle this article is coming from is that why would God love us because we are so undeserving of His love. Of course, this is based upon the Christian belief that we are all sinners. I do not buy that because that is not a Baha’i belief. At least Bahais don’t believe we are sinners in the same way that Christians believe it.
  • The question that can never be answered sufficiently is why God is love.
I've said this before, but I think "God is love" is pretty meaningless. Love is not something that someone can be made of, it's not material. "God is loving" is better. Incidentally, as Jesus said, loving the undeserving is the true test of love. Anyone can love people who are nice!

First John 4:8 and 16 tell us that “God is love.” Never was a more important declaration made than this—God is love”
  • I am sorry but I cannot believe that just because the Bible says it. If God is love, need to know WHY God is love. How can people be so gullible?
Since it is God’s essential nature to love, He demonstrates His love by lavishing it on undeserving people who are in rebellion against Him.
  • Okay, now we are getting down to the nitty-gritty. HOW does God lavish His love on undeserving people?
Oh wait! We have an answer.

“God’s love is not a sappy, sentimental, romantic feeling. Rather, it is agape love, the love of self-sacrifice. He demonstrates this sacrificial love by sending His Son to the cross to pay the penalty for our sin (1 John 4:10),”
  • Sorry but no. God did not sacrifice anything, Jesus did. For one thing, God does not have a Son since God is not a human being, so God cannot sacrifice His Son as Christians claim. For another thing, God cannot sacrifice anything because nothing can diminish the things that God possesses.

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess. Gleanings, p. 148

That's just a difference in theology, though I tend to agree. What's more God is (supposedly) so powerful that it is no effort at all to do stuff for us. It does matter that (if true) he does good things to us rather than bad. That would suggest benevolence/lovingness I think.

Back to the article:

“God’s love is personal. He knows each of us individually and loves us personally. His is a mighty love that has no beginning and no end. It is this experiencing of God’s love that distinguishes Christianity from all other religions. Why does God love us? It is because of who He is: "God is love."
  • I love it. How does God’s love distinguish Christianity from all the other religions? Does God only love Christians? :rolleyes:
  • God loves us because God is love, but nobody can answer the question: Why is God love? The only answer Christians have is “because the Bible says so” and the only answer Baha'is have is "because Baha'u'llah said so."
I'm not sure it matters why God is loving (if so). I'd settle for the knowledge that he is. Just the same standard I'd apply to a person, incidentally.
I rest my case. Now I'm headed for the atheist-agnostic kiosk to sign up before I lose my mind!

See you there, I'm volunteering at the kiosk this week. We have a few special offers you may be interested in. ;)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Just a correction, atheists don't claim that God is anything. How could they? They take what theists claim and point out inconsistencies. Noted that not all theists make that claim.
I meant that atheists say that God is 'supposed to be omnibenevolent' according to some theists' claims. I did not mean that atheists actually believe that God is omnibenevolent.
It's interesting to hear him call God "the Most Generous" while only giving to those that he wants to and not to others. Actually I fit that description, so I guess I'm the most generous too. There may be some qualification somewhere though?
Yes, there are further qualifications to be considered God. There are whole books full of those qualifications!
Actually, as quotation says, it's both a feeling and an action, depending on how it's used.

As you go on to discuss, someone can claim to be benevolent or loving (I still feel there is little difference between the two words), but it is by his actions that we judge the reality of that feeling.
Yes, it is by actions that we judge, not that we should be judging God.
I've said this before, but I think "God is love" is pretty meaningless. Love is not something that someone can be made of, it's not material. "God is loving" is better. Incidentally, as Jesus said, loving the undeserving is the true test of love. Anyone can love people who are nice!
Yes, I think that is silly to say God is Love. I think Christians say that just to press the point that God is loving.
Loving the undeserving is one test of love and supposedly God loves the undeserving. However, these are just words in scripture, where is the proof? What does God do to show He loves the undeserving. Please don't tell me God sent His only son or I will show up at the kiosk sooner than later!
That's just a difference in theology, though I tend to agree. What's more God is (supposedly) so powerful that it is no effort at all to do stuff for us. It does matter that (if true) he does good things to us rather than bad. That would suggest benevolence/lovingness I think.
As an act of love, I do not expect God to do good things for us, I just wish He would stop doing bad things to us.... That'd be a step in the right direction. :rolleyes:
I'm not sure it matters why God is loving (if so). I'd settle for the knowledge that he is. Just the same standard I'd apply to a person, incidentally.
Thanks for that. I also cannot understand why I have to believe that God is loving. I settle for the knowledge that He is.
See you there, I'm volunteering at the kiosk this week. We have a few special offers you may be interested in. ;)
I'd like to take you up on one of those special offers but I don't think I can shake my belief that God exists. ;):(
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Interesting, I was just reading about this in the book entitled Private Dowding by Wellesley Tudor Pole and it confirms what you have experienced. The book says that some are working on this side and some are working on the other side to help spirits cross over. You are one who is working on this side.

Yes, I am, and it gives me joy when I can persuade a spirit to cross over into the spirit world. I persuaded the spirit of a young girl to cross over into the spirit world yesterday. She was walking along the side of the highway, so I pulled over to a side road, got out of my car, and waited for her to pass by me before I spoke to her. She was taken aback at first, but she soon began conversing with me and was ready to cross over when I asked her. I asked her why she was walking alongside the highway, but she didn't respond right away.

She simply asked me to follow her. So I did, and she led me to a small flower-covered cross by the side of a fence, just a few feet from where I first saw her while driving by in my car. I asked her if she had been in a car accident and died in the accident, and she said yes. I then asked her how long she had been there, and she said she couldn't remember. She explained that she didn't know what to do or where to go, so she either stayed at the scene of her death or wandered down the side of the roadway in search of help. She said she didn't know she was dead until her mother came to lay flowers at the cross erected in her honor. She said that the moment she knew she had died was when she raised her voice and waved her hands in her mother's face, but her mother couldn't see or hear her.

She told me she was confused and scared for a long time because she believed she would go to heaven after she died. She stated that she was taught this by her parents and when she attended church with her family. She was clearly upset because she didn't understand why she wasn't in heaven yet. She thought that she had unknowingly done something wrong that had kept her from entering heaven. I told her that wasn't what happened to her and that I'm a psychic medium, and that's how I can see, hear, and communicate with her. She shook her head in disbelief, telling me that she had always been taught that there were no ghosts and that anyone claiming to be a medium was either faking it or conversing with demons. I asked her, "Are you a demon?" And she gave me this indignant look and said, "No, I am not." I told her, "I know you're not," and that as a medium, I could see, hear, and talk to her.

She asked me if she had been lied to about there being no ghosts, that there was no such thing as a medium, or that there was no such thing as heaven or even God and Jesus. I told her that I didn't think she had been lied to, but rather that she had been misled by her Christian beliefs. I told her that there are other earthbound spirits like her, that there are genuine psychic mediums like me, and that I believe in the spirit world but not necessarily in heaven or hell, as taught in the Bible. I was honest with her about my beliefs about God and Jesus, but I also told her that I had no idea if either of them existed in the spirit world. I was also open with her about my feelings about the Bible's teachings on death and the afterlife. She thanked me for my honesty and for taking the time to speak with her and help her, and she said she was ready to cross over and find out for herself what was on the other side. She, like the other earthbound spirits I've persuaded to cross over, told me she saw a light, and I told her to walk into it. She walked toward the light she saw, but before she entered it, she turned around with a smile and quietly thanked me. She then turned back and was gone.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, I am, and it gives me joy when I can persuade a spirit to cross over into the spirit world. I persuaded the spirit of a young girl to cross over into the spirit world yesterday. She was walking along the side of the highway, so I pulled over to a side road, got out of my car, and waited for her to pass by me before I spoke to her. She was taken aback at first, but she soon began conversing with me and was ready to cross over when I asked her. I asked her why she was walking alongside the highway, but she didn't respond right away.

She simply asked me to follow her. So I did, and she led me to a small flower-covered cross by the side of a fence, just a few feet from where I first saw her while driving by in my car. I asked her if she had been in a car accident and died in the accident, and she said yes. I then asked her how long she had been there, and she said she couldn't remember. She explained that she didn't know what to do or where to go, so she either stayed at the scene of her death or wandered down the side of the roadway in search of help. She said she didn't know she was dead until her mother came to lay flowers at the cross erected in her honor. She said that the moment she knew she had died was when she raised her voice and waved her hands in her mother's face, but her mother couldn't see or hear her.

She told me she was confused and scared for a long time because she believed she would go to heaven after she died. She stated that she was taught this by her parents and when she attended church with her family. She was clearly upset because she didn't understand why she wasn't in heaven yet. She thought that she had unknowingly done something wrong that had kept her from entering heaven. I told her that wasn't what happened to her and that I'm a psychic medium, and that's how I can see, hear, and communicate with her. She shook her head in disbelief, telling me that she had always been taught that there were no ghosts and that anyone claiming to be a medium was either faking it or conversing with demons. I asked her, "Are you a demon?" And she gave me this indignant look and said, "No, I am not." I told her, "I know you're not," and that as a medium, I could see, hear, and talk to her.

She asked me if she had been lied to about there being no ghosts, that there was no such thing as a medium, or that there was no such thing as heaven or even God and Jesus. I told her that I didn't think she had been lied to, but rather that she had been misled by her Christian beliefs. I told her that there are other earthbound spirits like her, that there are genuine psychic mediums like me, and that I believe in the spirit world but not necessarily in heaven or hell, as taught in the Bible. I was honest with her about my beliefs about God and Jesus, but I also told her that I had no idea if either of them existed in the spirit world. I was also open with her about my feelings about the Bible's teachings on death and the afterlife. She thanked me for my honesty and for taking the time to speak with her and help her, and she said she was ready to cross over and find out for herself what was on the other side. She, like the other earthbound spirits I've persuaded to cross over, told me she saw a light, and I told her to walk into it. She walked toward the light she saw, but before she entered it, she turned around with a smile and quietly thanked me. She then turned back and was gone.
That is a beautiful heartwarming story. I saved it into a Word document for future reference....
Who knows, that Light she walked into could be the Light of the Love of God.... we can only hope.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
I did not have to realize that. I already knew that.
I was not wrong because when I said people who are depressed have trouble eating and sleeping or doing anything at all, and many cannot even work, I was referring to clinically depressed people.
Ah! In that case you should have qualified your use of the word ‘depressed’ by preceding it with ‘clinically’. Otherwise the reader may believe that you are unaware of the difference between subclinical and clinical depression. She/he may believe your actual words: “People who are depressed have trouble eating and sleeping or doing anything at all, and many cannot even work”.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
I never believed that God's is loving, suffering or not. It is not about MY suffering, it is about all the suffering in the world, the suffering that Christians brush off in order to continue 'believing' that God is loving.
C:\Users\chick\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif
What evidence do you have that makes you believe that Christians brush off all the suffering in the world in order to continue 'believing' that God is loving?
 
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samtonga43

Well-Known Member
They start to believe God hates them as soon as they get old enough for church. All the fellow grandmothers, grandfathers, they all gather around the little children, tell them how special they are - do you know how lucky you are to have such wonderful parents? Such a strong loving father who provides and mother who nurtures? You are so lucky to have the priesthood in your home. You be a good child, be obedient to your *pefophile* father, be humble and submissive like your beautiful mother, and one day you can have a *loving* family of your own.
You are so lucky, so privileged, #blessed.
Say your prays.
God is there watching over you. Watching over you every night as your father repeatedly rapes you. Say your prayers and God will be there to watch.
The above picture of church belongs in the Dark Ages. I have never experienced this in any Christian group anywhere. Your description says a lot about you, however.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
And then they are not supposed to be confused :confused: when people keep telling them that God loves them?
At least the Baha'i Faith never tells them that God hates them, only that God loves them.
Will evidence that The Christian faith tells people that God hates them be forthcoming? Let's wait and see.
 

idea

Question Everything
The above picture of church belongs in the Dark Ages. I have never experienced this in any Christian group anywhere. Your description says a lot about you, however.

Are you unfamiliar with all of the child abuse cases currently happening in churches? I experienced it. The phone call, detective asking me to identify children in videos. Others from church refused to testify. Priest–penitent privilege still exists in many states. They knew, he had been confessing for years. They did nothing. Prayers don't work. He is in jail now thanks to secular support.
 

samtonga43

Well-Known Member
Are you unfamiliar with all of the child abuse cases currently happening in churches? I experienced it. The phone call, detective asking me to identify children in videos. Others from church refused to testify. Priest–penitent privilege still exists in many states. They knew, he had been confessing for years. They did nothing. Prayers don't work. He is in jail now thanks to secular support.
Roman Catholic?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Ah! In that case you should have qualified your use of the word ‘depressed’ by preceding it with ‘clinically’. Otherwise the reader may believe that you are unaware of the difference between subclinical and clinical depression.
I don't think any 'readers' (besides you) were concerned with whether I was aware of the difference between subclinical and clinical depression. I wonder why?
 
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