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Convince me that God is loving

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
No, it is not born of depression, it is born of logical thinking.
It does not matter if God is a human.
What 'reason' is there to believe that God is loving aside from what scriptures say?
If there is no reason to believe it why should I believe it, just because Baha'u'llah said God is loving?
Sorry, that is not good enough for me.
I'd like to tell you a story.

Pop on the kettle, grab a biscuit, and...

Over forty years ago l was at university, many miles from home, feeling 'removed'. A very nice girl, l think she was Irish, shared the Gospel with me, not in a forceful manner, but gently and compassionately. She then left me with a New Testament to read.

Quietly, in the solitude of my little room, l began to digest the words of the Gospels. I got to John 15:13, and l had to stop reading.

Suddenly, it all began to touch me. No longer were these just words on a page. I was listening to Jesus speak very personally to me. He said, Yes, l died for you!

This realisation is not easy to handle.

I have to admit that l had tears streaming down my face as l realised what a friend Jesus had been to me. This was not some intellectual game, or abstract religion. I had been confronted by the love of God, and it broke me. I now knew what God's love truly meant.

The Holy Spirit has remained 'at hand' even when l have strayed from the fold. He is, l believe, a good shepherd to all who call upon His name in faith.

This is my testimony to the love of God.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
"...all that he might come a little closer to understanding his children's plight."
That's a really profound point.
I'm reminded of ...
(Hebrews 5:8-10) 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him, 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Melchizedek.

(Hebrews 4:14-15) 14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold on to our public declaration of him. 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tested in all respects as we have, but without sin.
We often overlook the triumphant human experience that Jesus had.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
He always insisted that God is loving because Baha'u'llah wrote that. He told me I am not really a Baha'i if I don't believe what Baha'u'llah wrote and I should become an atheist. Then during the last months of his life when he was in so much pain he told me I was right, God is not loving..
..and Almighty God is Forgiving and Merciful.
I don't think that we are always in our "right mind" when we are suffering .. satan is our enemy.

Maybe your husband suffered more than most, due to his faith.
..and God knows best.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I believe this is it:
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Honestly, I think that believers can fall back on their scriptures, but it is our own experiences in life that lead us to believe that God is loving, or not loving. Your experience was good, mine not so good. I have no reason to believe that God is loving, except what scriptures say, and it's not good enough for me.

I don't think it matters to God if I believe He is loving and I know that God knows that my heart is in the right place when I seek to know the truth. Unfortunately, I don't think I will ever believe that God is loving in this earthly life unless somethings happens to convince me.

I believe I once was in despair because God didn't do what I wanted Him to do. Thank God He loves me enough to not give me what I want.
 

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
Convince me that God is loving without referring to scriptures that say that.

Tell me why I should believe that God is loving.

I cannot believe God is loving since it makes no sense to me that there would be so much suffering in the world if God was loving. I am referring to suffering that cannot be tied any free will decision of the person who suffers.

I do not want to hear any religious apologetics about how suffering is for our own good. We all know that there is a lot of gratuitous suffering in the world, suffering that serves no purpose.

A person who loves someone does things to show that they love that person, and they make sacrifices for the other person. If a man tells me he loves me but does nothing to show it, why would I believe him?

What does God do to show He loves us? What sacrifices does God make?

I see no evidence that God is loving, so I have to write that off as a faith-based belief.

P.S. Whether we should love God or not is another discussion. In principle, I think we should love God and other people without expectation of getting anything in return. I do not need God’s love in order to love God. I do not need love from anyone in order to love that person because I consider that selfish.

Christians and Baha’s believe that God is loving, and I think there is a reason for that, other than what their scriptures say. Imo, they have to believe God is loving because they need to feel loved by God in order to love God. I have no idea why since I do not need God’s love in order to love God. The reason I want to know if God is loving is because I am tired of religious people saying that God is loving with nothing but scriptures to back that up.

Dear @Trailblazer

I’m not a Christian anymore; I do not even belong to an Abrahamic religion. Yet, as you asked for advice, I will give my two cents as well.

1. If I were you I would consider dropping a possibly harmful / pressure-causing image of God entirely; some people might be better off as an atheist or agnostic altogether.

2. If (1) is absolutely out of the question for some reason: I have found that some Christians, especially Catholics, take comfort and strength in "reliving" the sufferings of Jesus. In their eyes, the suffering of Jesus is the proof of God's love for mankind. Baha'ullah is said to have suffered quite a bit in his life too; perhaps you could find comfort in imagining his sufferings as well. It's just an idea, but it might work.

Take care.:heart:
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Convince me that God is loving without referring to scriptures that say that.

Tell me why I should believe that God is loving.

I cannot believe God is loving since it makes no sense to me that there would be so much suffering in the world if God was loving. I am referring to suffering that cannot be tied any free will decision of the person who suffers.

I do not want to hear any religious apologetics about how suffering is for our own good. We all know that there is a lot of gratuitous suffering in the world, suffering that serves no purpose.

A person who loves someone does things to show that they love that person, and they make sacrifices for the other person. If a man tells me he loves me but does nothing to show it, why would I believe him?

What does God do to show He loves us? What sacrifices does God make?

I see no evidence that God is loving, so I have to write that off as a faith-based belief.

P.S. Whether we should love God or not is another discussion. In principle, I think we should love God and other people without expectation of getting anything in return. I do not need God’s love in order to love God. I do not need love from anyone in order to love that person because I consider that selfish.

Christians and Baha’s believe that God is loving, and I think there is a reason for that, other than what their scriptures say. Imo, they have to believe God is loving because they need to feel loved by God in order to love God. I have no idea why since I do not need God’s love in order to love God. The reason I want to know if God is loving is because I am tired of religious people saying that God is loving with nothing but scriptures to back that up.
There is no logical entailment that God must be loving. Assuming we have a clear cut definition of what "loving" means.

A hating God. Or a God Who does not care, are equally plausible.

For this reason, the arbitrary attribute of "loving" people label God with, appear to be more like an instance of wishful thinking, than the product of logical inference.

Ciao

- viole
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A person who loves someone does things to show that they love that person, and they make sacrifices for the other person. If a man tells me he loves me but does nothing to show it, why would I believe him?

I agree with you here, which is why I take exception to others reproving those who have expectations for what love should be. When we are told that God loves us or is good, there is no warning that it's nothing like what he would consider love or goodness. If so, why should he want it?

What would be the difference if there was or wasn't, since God does not do anything anyway?

I've been making this argument to you for years for unbelief in interventionist gods like the Abrahamic god. Do you recall the many mentions of restricted choice, which say in essence that this god is indistinguishable from nonexistence, that whenever things might have been otherwise had there been a god, we still always see what we would expect in a godless universe. I see that as evidence that the god doesn't exist. I really don't understand what keeps you a believer if you see this god as unloving and indolent, and which belief brings you no peace or comfort.

Tell me why you think it is the most precious and priceless gift I could ever have received, other than the fact that you believe it is. What do I get from this gift other than constant service work and guilt over what I am not believing or doing right? That's a gift?

And this is also something any unbeliever might write.

Can a parent love a child but know that children sometimes have to be allowed to make mistakes and suffer the consequences?

Is that parent tri-omni? If so, then that is not love. That's what a loving human parent has to settle for, but not a god with the power to do better. Who among us wouldn't prevent their children from making mistakes if we could program them to know what can only be learned through experience and making mistakes?

rather than letting our experience define God, we should let God define our experience.

I consider that backwards. I prefer going from evidence to a conclusion drawn from it. You suggest going from faith-based premise and the confirmation bias that comes from that kind of thinking to looking at the evidence to try to make it conform to the faith-based belief. I eventually let my experience define God during my decade of Christianity during which I suspended disbelief - the closest I could come to belief. I thought that I needed to test out this religion like a pair of shoes. If it didn't fit at first, walk in them for a season to see if they began to fit - if the religion began to start making sense and gain evidentiary support. But eventually, evidence surfaced that answered that question, and I could no longer suspend disbelief, so I left religion.

Sounds like u don't believe in God so y would I waste time to convince u he's loving?

She most definitely believes in her god and travails over that. She feels compelled to love it even though it seems unlovable and unloving to her. If she didn't believe, she might have found happiness long ago (my words, not hers, although she might agree). And why would she think you knew anything about love after reading that comment?

Without god u wouldn't be here. Start with that. Unless you think something else is behind all of existence then I guess you're allowed to be unloved. Haha

She deserves to be unloved if she's not a theist, and that makes you laugh? Lovely. RF is where I come to survey how religion affects thought and character.

Also, you aren't paying attention to what she's telling you. She doesn't consider being born a gift - what you offer as evidence of this god's love.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
I don't believe you actually believe that. Or know what it would mean if you didn't exist.

Have you seen It's a Wonderful Life?

Please, and everyone. This kind of response is useless to someone who is (I think) depressed. No kind of "cheer up" response will help. Just listen and be kind.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
The reason I want to know if God is loving is because I am tired of religious people saying that God is loving with nothing but scriptures to back that up.
You have never experienced God's love?
Even through all my struggle in life I have experienced so much of God's blessings that I really can't doubt his love.
And he's spared my life more than once.
 

Jimmy

Veteran Member
I agree with you here, which is why I take exception to others reproving those who have expectations for what love should be. When we are told that God loves us or is good, there is no warning that it's nothing like what he would consider love or goodness. If so, why should he want it?



I've been making this argument to you for years for unbelief in interventionist gods like the Abrahamic god. Do you recall the many mentions of restricted choice, which say in essence that this god is indistinguishable from nonexistence, that whenever things might have been otherwise had there been a god, we still always see what we would expect in a godless universe. I see that as evidence that the god doesn't exist. I really don't understand what keeps you a believer if you see this god as unloving and indolent, and which belief brings you no peace or comfort.



And this is also something any unbeliever might write.



Is that parent tri-omni? If so, then that is not love. That's what a loving human parent has to settle for, but not a god with the power to do better. Who among us wouldn't prevent their children from making mistakes if we could program them to know what can only be learned through experience and making mistakes?



I consider that backwards. I prefer going from evidence to a conclusion drawn from it. You suggest going from faith-based premise and the confirmation bias that comes from that kind of thinking to looking at the evidence to try to make it conform to the faith-based belief. I eventually let my experience define God during my decade of Christianity during which I suspended disbelief - the closest I could come to belief. I thought that I needed to test out this religion like a pair of shoes. If it didn't fit at first, walk in them for a season to see if they began to fit - if the religion began to start making sense and gain evidentiary support. But eventually, evidence surfaced that answered that question, and I could no longer suspend disbelief, so I left religion.



She most definitely believes in her god and travails over that. She feels compelled to love it even though it seems unlovable and unloving to her. If she didn't believe, she might have found happiness long ago (my words, not hers, although she might agree). And why would she think you knew anything about love after reading that comment?



She deserves to be unloved if she's not a theist, and that makes you laugh? Lovely. RF is where I come to survey how religion affects thought and character.

Also, you aren't paying attention to what she's telling you. She doesn't consider being born a gift - what you offer as evidence of this god's love.
Then she can think her life isn't a gift.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
I find it comforting when someone says things will get better in a kind and compassionate way.

A depressed person is not helped by that. All she can feel is the oppressive weight of her mood. Also don't relate stories of how you went through similar things and survived. It won't help. And don't say "I know how you feel". You don't.

I'm sorry, I'm not picking on anyone here, but I'm seeing suicidal ideation and I'm very worried. Sorry to talk about you as if you weren't here @Trailblazer. Please respond to my PM.
 

Jimmy

Veteran Member
I agree with you here, which is why I take exception to others reproving those who have expectations for what love should be. When we are told that God loves us or is good, there is no warning that it's nothing like what he would consider love or goodness. If so, why should he want it?



I've been making this argument to you for years for unbelief in interventionist gods like the Abrahamic god. Do you recall the many mentions of restricted choice, which say in essence that this god is indistinguishable from nonexistence, that whenever things might have been otherwise had there been a god, we still always see what we would expect in a godless universe. I see that as evidence that the god doesn't exist. I really don't understand what keeps you a believer if you see this god as unloving and indolent, and which belief brings you no peace or comfort.



And this is also something any unbeliever might write.



Is that parent tri-omni? If so, then that is not love. That's what a loving human parent has to settle for, but not a god with the power to do better. Who among us wouldn't prevent their children from making mistakes if we could program them to know what can only be learned through experience and making mistakes?



I consider that backwards. I prefer going from evidence to a conclusion drawn from it. You suggest going from faith-based premise and the confirmation bias that comes from that kind of thinking to looking at the evidence to try to make it conform to the faith-based belief. I eventually let my experience define God during my decade of Christianity during which I suspended disbelief - the closest I could come to belief. I thought that I needed to test out this religion like a pair of shoes. If it didn't fit at first, walk in them for a season to see if they began to fit - if the religion began to start making sense and gain evidentiary support. But eventually, evidence surfaced that answered that question, and I could no longer suspend disbelief, so I left religion.



She most definitely believes in her god and travails over that. She feels compelled to love it even though it seems unlovable and unloving to her. If she didn't believe, she might have found happiness long ago (my words, not hers, although she might agree). And why would she think you knew anything about love after reading that comment?



She deserves to be unloved if she's not a theist, and that makes you laugh? Lovely. RF is where I come to survey how religion affects thought and character.

Also, you aren't paying attention to what she's telling you. She doesn't consider being born a gift - what you offer as evidence of this god's love.
She seems to be fine, loving an unloving god, to me.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
consider that backwards. I prefer going from evidence to a conclusion drawn from it. You suggest going from faith-based premise and the confirmation bias that comes from that kind of thinking to looking at the evidence to try to make it conform to the faith-based belief. I eventually let my experience define God during my decade of Christianity during which I suspended disbelief - the closest I could come to belief. I thought that I needed to test out this religion like a pair of shoes. If it didn't fit at first, walk in them for a season to see if they began to fit - if the religion began to start making sense and gain evidentiary support. But eventually, evidence surfaced that answered that question, and I could no longer suspend disbelief, so I left religion.

I wouldn’t subscribe with that position - but it isn’t a “faith” issue but rather reading the specifics on the legal document called Last Will and Testament.

Jesus gave the analogy this way as he showed a coin “whose inscription is on the coin “. They said Ceasar. He then said “Give to a Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar and to God what belongs to God”

the other coin is “it is the thief that steals, cleans and destroy but I have come to give life and that more abundantly”

so I look at the legal document and I judge my experience and define my God by the document and not by my experience
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, you were right that some people cannot explain to you why they believe God is loving without quoting the Bible or some texts regarding Baha'i beliefs. I don't think the arguments citing the Bible are convincing at all, and I doubt that you think they are either.
But sadly, the texts is all they have, that and their personal opinions. We all have those.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Emotional pain bottled up for years causes serious repercussions.
It's good to have someone we can talk to, and really express our innermost feelings. Someone who would really listen.
I'd be careful with the psychoanalysis. I do not have any emotional pain that has been bottled up for years just because I question whether God is loving. There is no logical connection between the two.

I have had counselors to talk to for years, whenever I need them.
Many do not believe God does listen to our prayers, and soothes our aching heart.
From what you have been saying for some time now, you don't, apparently.
If you aren't convinced, and no one can convince you... all I can say is... I am really sorry for your loss.
I did not expect anyone to convince me. I just thought it would be fun watching people try. :D

You are free to believe anything you want to believe, if it makes you feel good.
There is no loss. I don't need an imaginary friend, I need real friends.
 
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