Convince me that the world isn't overpopulated

[icehorse]

We were doing all of that when there were only 2 billion people also.

Humans can use resources in sustainable ways or unsustainable ways. When there were only 2 billion people perhaps our water use was such that our aquifers were replenishing themselves as quickly as we were using them. I don't know if that's the case, it's just an example.

Additionally, when there were "only" 2 billion people, we were using some resources unsustainably, it was just less obvious that it was happening, it was slower. Still unsustainable, but slower.

 

[Estro Felino]

Humans can use resources in sustainable ways or unsustainable ways. When there were only 2 billion people perhaps our water use was such that our aquifers were replenishing themselves as quickly as we were using them. I don't know if that's the case, it's just an example.

Additionally, when there were "only" 2 billion people, we were using some resources unsustainably, it was just less obvious that it was happening, it was slower. Still unsustainable, but slower.

On average an European consumes 130 liters of water a day.
Considering shower, washing machine, dishwasher and plumbing.

That number is sufficient to consider it's absolutely sensible to make zero children in 2023.

 

[icehorse]

On average an European consumes 130 liters of water a day.
Considering shower, washing machine, dishwasher and plumbing.

That number is sufficient to consider it's absolutely sensible to make zero children in 2023.

And while estimates vary, it takes about 3000 liters of fresh water to produce 1kg of beef

 

[Kfox]

No, I'm suggesting that the world is overpopulated. If your claim (that 7 billion people are living a comfortable life and that the world is not overpopulated) has merit, then we would see tangible, visible evidence of this. There would be enough resources for everyone in the world to enjoy a first-world standard of living.

There are enough resources for everybody to have such a lifestyle. The reason it doesn't happen is because the people with the abity to make it happen are unwilling to do what it takes to make it happen. Resources have nothing to do with it.

 

[Kfox]

Yes, I am.
At least 1 billion would have had the exact same lifestyle.

Then how come 150 years ago when there were only 2 billion people on earth, everybody didn't have that lifestyle? As a matter of fact; during that time poverty was 100 times worse than it is right now!

 

[Twilight Hue]

Alexandra Paul has always been wonderful at explaining how this is a problem.
And it's not a matter of space. The spaces are borderless. The problem is resources, since so many lands are unproductive and 8 billion people is an unsustainable number.
And besides that, world overpopulation has been causing nothing but social inequalities and maldistribution of wealth.

And the shocking thing is that when I was born, world population was 4 billion.
Now it has doubled. It has reached 8 billion, and I am still young. Almost all of my former classmates are childless.
And they have no intention of making babies. Not only because of the uncertainty of the future...but because they don't want kids that will have to live in a nightmarish, overpopulated world.
I also advise people that being child-free is better, and they yell at me, telling I am wrong. Since the West is the one which is going through a birth rates collapse, and that it's other continents which should decrease their birth rates.
But the truth is that the future kids will have to face overwhelming immigration, and the discomfort of an overpopulated world.
So...we should think of their future.


View attachment 83178

Birth rates

Don't worry. The Japanese are hastily working on the perfect sex bot to redirect those child making tendencies.

 

[Kfox]

Humans can use resources in sustainable ways or unsustainable ways. When there were only 2 billion people perhaps our water use was such that our aquifers were replenishing themselves as quickly as we were using them. I don't know if that's the case, it's just an example.

Additionally, when there were "only" 2 billion people, we were using some resources unsustainably,

How many people in order that we not use resources unsustainably?1 Billion? 0.5 Billion?

it was just less obvious that it was happening, it was slower. Still unsustainable, but slower.

Maybe it was less obvious because the media at that time was not reporting on it the way they do today.

 

[icehorse]

How many people in order that we not use resources unsustainably?1 Billion? 0.5 Billion?

Good question, and no doubt we can become more efficient. But it's all about observing the long term impacts of our approaches.

 

[Estro Felino]

Then how come 150 years ago when there were only 2 billion people on earth, everybody didn't have that lifestyle? As a matter of fact; during that time poverty was 100 times worse than it is right now!

The Europe of 150 years ago was a Paradise. Without electricity of course, but with so much beauty and love....
Now it's a multicultural Hell, with overpopulated neighborhoods and social injustice.

 

[Valjean]

There are some areas that are over crowded, but not everywhere.

What does crowding have to do with anything? There's more to a region's, carrying capacity than population density.

There are enough resources for everybody to have such a lifestyle. The reason it doesn't happen is because the people with the abity to make it happen are unwilling to do what it takes to make it happen. Resources have nothing to do with it.

Where are these limitless resources going to come from?

Then how come 150 years ago when there were only 2 billion people on earth, everybody didn't have that lifestyle? As a matter of fact; during that time poverty was 100 times worse than it is right now!

They didn't have the technology to use resources as profligately as we do.

 

[Estro Felino]

What does crowding have to do with anything? There's more to a region's, carrying capacity than population density.

I have been speaking of resources ....but they will keep bringing up the space thing.

 

[Kfox]

The Europe of 150 years ago was a Paradise. Without electricity of course, but with so much beauty and love....
Now it's a multicultural Hell, with overpopulated neighborhoods and social injustice.

The person I was discussing with was saying we should be able to provide every family on Earth with a single-family home with fixed plumbing, electricity, & internet connections, that each family should have two vehicles, every country should have modern transportation infrastructure and that everybody should be able to eat steak or lobster every night, take cruise and ski vacations, etc. My point was we never had that when there were less people, and if there were less people today; we likely wouldn’t have them now.

 

[Kfox]

What does crowding have to do with anything? There's more to a region's, carrying capacity than population density.

Where are these limitless resources going to come from?

They didn't have the technology to use resources as profligately as we do.

Perhaps in the future we will have the technology to use resources more profligately than we do now.

 

[icehorse]

The person I was discussing with was saying we should be able to provide every family on Earth with a single-family home with fixed plumbing, electricity, & internet connections, that each family should have two vehicles, every country should have modern transportation infrastructure and that everybody should be able to eat steak or lobster every night, take cruise and ski vacations, etc. My point was we never had that when there were less people, and if there were less people today; we likely wouldn’t have them now.

Just try to imagine the math for this vision:

- 8 BILLION lobsters / night, so that's like THREE TRILLION lobsters / year?
- 8 BILLION steaks / night? It takes about 3,000 gallons of fresh water to make a pound of beef. Where will all those TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS of gallons of fresh water come from? And where will the wastes from cattle production go, into rivers??

Now this is not to say that we couldn't be doing better with things like distributing food and water and energy, of course we could. But that's just a band aid solution, and doesn't address long term sustainability.

Perhaps in the future we will have the technology to use resources more profligately than we do now.

No doubt we will. But that means more waste, more mining. more pollution...

 

[Stevicus]

The person I was discussing with was saying we should be able to provide every family on Earth with a single-family home with fixed plumbing, electricity, & internet connections, that each family should have two vehicles, every country should have modern transportation infrastructure and that everybody should be able to eat steak or lobster every night, take cruise and ski vacations, etc. My point was we never had that when there were less people, and if there were less people today; we likely wouldn’t have them now.

I believe your point was that everyone could have a comfortable life with 7 billion people.

 

[icehorse]

I believe your point was that everyone could have a comfortable life with 7 billion people.

So I think getting really precise on "comfortable" is crucial here. Personally I think that with some preparation I could live "comfortably" using about 20% of the gas and electricity I'm currently using. Some belt tightening would be required, but I think we could still be comfortable.

Here are a couple of "for instances":

- mammals ought to cost $50 / pound, so a hamburger or steak would be a rare treat.
- total auto driving reduced to maybe 1200 miles a year. Maybe using an e-bike whenever possible?
- keeping the thermostat at 64 degrees in the winter - maybe insulating many of the windows on the house
- keeping the thermostat at 80 degrees in the summer - adding a lot of shade cloth over southern wondows
- having a productive (permaculture?), 1000 square foot garden
- maybe putting a timer on the hot water heater - hot water only a few hours / day

And so on..

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

I refuse to convince you, because i agree with you. We got too many people.

 

[Valjean]

We're using resources faster than they can be replaced. We're disrupting all the natural systems and feedback loops.
We come up with all sorts of clever, technological "fixes," but these are just Band Aids. The damage remains and increases.

 

[JIMMY12345]

Alexandra Paul has always been wonderful at explaining how this is a problem.
And it's not a matter of space. The spaces are borderless. The problem is resources, since so many lands are unproductive and 8 billion people is an unsustainable number.
And besides that, world overpopulation has been causing nothing but social inequalities and maldistribution of wealth.

And the shocking thing is that when I was born, world population was 4 billion.
Now it has doubled. It has reached 8 billion, and I am still young. Almost all of my former classmates are childless.
And they have no intention of making babies. Not only because of the uncertainty of the future...but because they don't want kids that will have to live in a nightmarish, overpopulated world.
I also advise people that being child-free is better, and they yell at me, telling I am wrong. Since the West is the one which is going through a birth rates collapse, and that it's other continents which should decrease their birth rates.
But the truth is that the future kids will have to face overwhelming immigration, and the discomfort of an overpopulated world.
So...we should think of their future.


View attachment 83178

Birth rates

On you tube documentaries. China and Europe and other countries want more kids to support pensions and the big big big projected numbers of old people.

WebIPPF works in over 145 countries delivering sexual and reproductive healthcare through our IPPF Member Associations (MA). MAs are IPPF accredited autonomous organizations …

"IPPF" AND OTHERS LIKE "POPULATION WATCH" SHOULD HAVE A STAND AT DAVOS EVERY YEAR

 

[Estro Felino]

On you tube documentaries. China and Europe and other countries want more kids to support pensions and the big big big projected numbers of old people.

It's a vicious circle.
More kids means more people who will become old and in need of other babies who will need to work.
We must stop the vicious circle....started back when there was no contraception. And there was no hormonal pill.