Tyler Durne
Member
Do you realize that it is illogical to back up your facts by providing prove from a book that my response has just nullified? you will have to try a lot harder then this. Quran and especially surahs are irrelevant to this case.
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Could have Islam exist without Judaism & Christianity?
- Thread starter gnostic
- Start date
Do you realize that it is illogical to back up your facts by providing prove from a book that my response has just nullified? you will have to try a lot harder then this. Quran and especially surahs are irrelevant to this case.
arthra
Baha'i
It was a war... and the raids were part of it after the Muslims while in Mecca had to endure embargo, exile to Ethiopia and finally the escape (Hijra) to Medina and attacks on them there. The Banu Qurayza were a fifth column and were not powerless themselves..a mutually arbiter determined their fate.
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
Then quit talking about the Qur'an ignorantly without having a clue about it as you have done above. Moreover, your response didn't nullify anything...it was a bunch of baseless propaganda material.
Tyler Durne
Member
In reality you are the one spreading the propaganda, it is one thing to base you reasoning on facts and another on lies. The fact of history is that Quran is a copy of stories collected from the Torah, Talmud and Medrashim, from this point we can have a debate, argument or anything you want but to claim that it is not and that the Quran came before or have nothing to do with Judaism is propaganda and waist of time.
let me compare our three religions judiasm "God message" and christianity "God message "and Islam "God message" as sofwares
the Islam is the last version of God message .
it's just like correct update to fix the corrupted that happened to the Judaism and Christianity by humans .
for Islam view :
the correction happened in many ways , these are some :
1- Islam Gloury the God , don't minimize Him as do the Christians and Judaism
the Christainity said , part of God died in the Cross , and Judaism said Jacob (pbuh) fought God, and won God , then God bless him for that !!!
2- The Judiasm did not accept afterlife as certain way . and the Christainity deny the infinity Hell
, the Islam is with the afterlife (jugdement day ) and Hell and Heaven as infinity award .
in the Bible the name of Muhammad and Jesus (pbut) and they don't believe in them
Muhammad (pbuh) is the last messanger for the humanity .
which make Islam is the Global "God message " not ethnic "God message (jews )"
and in Old testement and New testemant God promiss the Jews and HE will denied them and give his message to other nation .
the Islam is the last version of God message .
it's just like correct update to fix the corrupted that happened to the Judaism and Christianity by humans .
for Islam view :
the correction happened in many ways , these are some :
1- Islam Gloury the God , don't minimize Him as do the Christians and Judaism
the Christainity said , part of God died in the Cross , and Judaism said Jacob (pbuh) fought God, and won God , then God bless him for that !!!
2- The Judiasm did not accept afterlife as certain way . and the Christainity deny the infinity Hell
, the Islam is with the afterlife (jugdement day ) and Hell and Heaven as infinity award .
in the Bible the name of Muhammad and Jesus (pbut) and they don't believe in them
Muhammad (pbuh) is the last messanger for the humanity .
which make Islam is the Global "God message " not ethnic "God message (jews )"
and in Old testement and New testemant God promiss the Jews and HE will denied them and give his message to other nation .
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Well it looks like you agree that Islam couldn't exist without the prior existence of Judaism and Christianity.
no it's not like that
it's like the message of God , sent and re-sent , the second message had no matter by the second first message.
because they are all one MESSAGE.
let's form new question to : could have Jacob message exist without Abrahim, Noah and Adam (pbut) messages ?
is the message of Abrahim and Noah and Adam ...etc (pbut) is denied or complet the message of Jacob (pbuh) or they were the same message (re-sent again )?
the messages that God sent by prophets and messangers all are the same , the hand of human (modification ) which make them different.
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What was Adams message?
GOD is one and he is the greater .
and all the rest of the Prophets and messangers had the same message , every time the humans edited the message of God , God re-sent other messagers to fix the old one .
Where did you find that Adam said that?
in the Quran .
3-33
Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures.
2-37
Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful.
3-33
Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures.
2-37
Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful.
What was the message that Adam delivered?
the same message that delivered to all the prophets and messangers .
God is one and great ....etc
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Because we belief that Adam(p) was a muslim therefore preached, knew and taught this.
Its the foundation and the creed of Islam saying God Is One.
Anyway back to the Topic muslims do not belief what was revealed to Jesus(p) was called Christianity or what was revealed to Moses(p) was called Judaism we can simply use logic to refute it. Jesus(p) never heard in hes entire live the word ''Christian-ITY'' nor did Moses(p) ever heard the word ''Judah-ISM''
Judasim comes from the tribe of Juda (after Moses''p'') and Christan''Ity'' comes after Jesus(p) from the Greeks who put a ''Ity'' behind it we can also see in the Bible + Torah that these words were never used by these two nor did they name the religion.
We belief whatever Jesus(p) and Moses(p) taught was Islam and not Christianity or Judaism so to answer the OP's question YES because Judaism and Christianity never existed in God's messages nor named like it. We also do not belief that Moses(p), Jesus(p) and Mohammed(saws) were teaching a different religion but the same one in different times to different people.
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YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Oddly, Christian's and Jews have vigorously disputed this assertion since the time of Muhammad.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Thats why i said ''We belief'' and your point is?
Even if you actually did make a point whatever it maybe be then give me one reference from the bible or Torah were Moses(p) or Jesus(p) named there religion that sounds like Christianity or Judaism.
gnostic
The Lost One
f0uad said:
All of these are unimportant.
Names (Christianity, Judaism or even Islam) don't make religions.
The core of Judaism, which is the Written Torah and Oral Torah comes from what are taught, not by name. It doesn't matter Moses didn't name his religion, because it is not his place to give name to his religion.
The core of Christianity comes from the what Jesus taught and did, and dozens or so letters from disciples of the 1st century CE, not from name.
The names are meaningless, it what's being taught that count. You can swap with any name you like, and it would be irrelevant, except for you.
Hebrews, Israelites, Jews or whatever you want to call them identified their religion, by the god they worshipped, whether he be called by YHWH, Elohim, etc, not by the name Judaism.
I have studied a lot of ancient religions and myths, and rarely do they give names to their respective religions. The religion was not identified by their names, but by the deities (gods or goddesses) they have worshipped.
I will give you some examples. In Heliopolis, Egypt, they worshipped Atum or Ra, and the Ennead (Atum's children and grandchildren), as far back of the 3rd dynasty of the Old Kingdom. There were no name in the writings. It is modern scholars (historians, archaeologists, anthropologists) that applied the Heliopolitan religion. Even when Aten created a new monotheistic religion for his god, Aten, Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV), there was no "Atenism"; it is modern name for the religion of Aten.
The same can be applied to the Sumerian religion in Mesopotamia. Particular cults existed in each Sumerian city. In Uruk (known as Erech in the bible), two deities of the greater importance were worshipped in this city: An (Babylonian Anu) and Inana (Ishtar). They were important because temples were built to them. No names were given to the cults.
Only Muslims would resort to names being of importance. Just because Muhammad gave name to his religion, doesn't mean everyone have to. It is rather petty.
OK, you think name of religion is important. Then answer some of my questions.
According to Islam, and to Muslims, Islam IS SUPPOSEDLY an eternal religion.
Yes, Moses didn't call religion Judaism or Jesus didn't call religion Christianity.
- Then why didn't God just tell Moses or Jesus to call their religions - ISLAM?
- Then why didn't Moses, Jesus or other prophets call themselves "Muslims"?
Your god, Allah, is supposed to be all-powerful and all-knowing, so time would have no meaning to one such like him. And yet why didn't the names "Islam" and "Muslim" exist prior to Muhammad supposedly became a prophet?
They didn't exist because Allah wasn't all-knowing.
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F0uad
Well-Known Member
You make a valid point and i agree but as the title says ''Christianity and Judaism'' so i was actually referring to the names.
Who ever said they weren't, as you know muslims belief that the previous scriptures have been altered and corrupted Islam by definition means submission to god. Muslims, Christians and Jews agree that Moses(P) was submitting himself to the will of god.
Muslim is simply a word in Arabic what means a submitter to the will of god i can quote references that they both submitted themselves to God therefore making them Submitters to God (Muslims) but i don't think i need to quote anything because Christians and Jews agree on these points.
The biggest error you made is saying that Islam or Muslim is a name while they aren't like i said Christian''ity'' is a name, Juda''ism'' is a name they all reflect people and there definition means someone who followed ..... Christ or Judah ''a name of a person''. While on the other-hand Islam by definition means ''One who submits to the will of god''
I hope you can see the difference and please read my previous message and see if i didn't answer them already.
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gnostic
The Lost One
f0uad said:
OK, now I understand your confusion with my thread, and why you keep talking about the name "Judaism" or "Christianity", and why you keep sidetracking this thread.
I don't give a fig for the "names" of the religions. This thread has nothing to do with the religions themselves and not just the "names".
Religion is more than just the name it goes by. The name is unimportant. What is important is the religion itself, like the teachings, oral tradition, scriptures (hence, the written traditions), the moral codes and (religious) laws.
If all the biblical figures (from Abraham to Jesus) didn't exist, if the Judaeo-Christian scriptures didn't exist, then Islam couldn't exist the way it do.