Could Jesus Have Been Simply a Fraud?

[AmbiguousGuy]

This is the hole in the Jesus myth theory, and I've read them all. Sorry but Paul does indeed talk of a flesh and blood human in whom he based his teachings upon named Jesus and he references people who are mentioned in the gospels and his letters pre date the gospels.

You're mistaken. Sorry. He speaks of no Jesus who walked the streets of 30 CE Jerusalem.

Sorry.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Yup. I grew up Christian (Southern Baptist ... the only problem with Southern Baptists is they don't hold them under the water NEARLY long enough ). For me, diving into the Hebrew and the Greek, and diving into the history, was what broke me away from Christianity.

I was raised even more fundamentalist than that. But I was born a skeptic and put aside the whole Bible thing before my late teens.

It has never occurred to me to dig back into it in detail. Other things interest me more, I guess.

 

[technomage]

I was raised even more fundamentalist than that. But I was born a skeptic and put aside the whole Bible thing before my late teens.

It has never occurred to me to dig back into it in detail. Other things interest me more, I guess.

I still have friends and family who are (pardon the pun) hell-bent on me coming back to Christianity--up to and including telling their pastors that they need to come "talk to the witch." I've gotten used to arguing with apologetes.

And I have to admit, the looks on their faces when I know their Bible as well or better than they do is priceless.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I still have friends and family who are (pardon the pun) hell-bent on me coming back to Christianity--up to and including telling their pastors that they need to come "talk to the witch." I've gotten used to arguing with apologetes.

My case was long ago filed under 'H' for 'Hopeless'.

 

[arcanum]

You're mistaken. Sorry. He speaks of no Jesus who walked the streets of 30 CE Jerusalem.

Sorry.

Whoa whoah, what? Do you think you can just lay that down as fact and say sorry done deal and braise on by? You're mistaken my friend, sorely mistaken. Do I need to prove it to you? I can if I have to, but are you that intellectually lazy to find evidence contrary to what you want to believe? Sorry if this is contrary the the little Jesus box you've constructed, your own personal little Jesus box that you put up on a shelf? Paul indeed does speak of a human flesh and blood Jesus who was born of a woman and died. He also talks about meeting with James and Peter as well as the reminder of the Jesus movement? Now, whatchu got homeboy?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Whoa whoah, what? Do you think you can just lay that down as fact and say sorry done deal and braise on by? You're mistaken my friend, sorely mistaken.

Yo. When one is angered at being shown one's own reflection, there may be issues.

Do I need to prove it to you?

You're certainly welcome to try.

I can if I have to, but are you that intellectually lazy to find evidence contrary to what you want to believe?

When no such evidence exists, then I am unable to find such evidence, not matter how energetically I work.

Sorry if this is contrary the the little Jesus box you've constructed, your own personal little Jesus box that you put up on a shelf?

Oh my. You're already a bunch more fun than any of these other guys.

Paul indeed does speak of a human flesh and blood Jesus who was born of a woman and died. He also talks about meeting with James and Peter as well as the reminder of the Jesus movement? Now, whatchu got homeboy?

Come on, man. Is that really all you've got.

You're late to the party. Those items have been so completely torn apart and refuted that we are all bored with them. How about reading the thread.

 

[arcanum]

Yo. When one is angered at being shown one's own reflection, there may be issues.



You're certainly welcome to try.



When no such evidence exists, then I am unable to find such evidence, not matter how energetically I work.



Oh my. You're already a bunch more fun than any of these other guys.



Come on, man. Is that really all you've got.

You're late to the party. Those items have been so completely torn apart and refuted that we are all bored with them. How about reading the thread.

"How about reading the thread"....you mean all 73 pages of idiots claiming to know something someone else doesn't? It's all out there for the discerning mind, now more than ever we can glimpse the spark of truth....it's all at you fingertips. This way folks...now the path is slippery, so mind your step....a fall could be quite painful:yes:

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

"How about reading the thread"....you mean all 73 pages of idiots claiming to know something someone else doesn't? It's all out there for the discerning mind, now more than ever we can glimpse the spark of truth....it's all at you fingertips. This way folks...now the path is slippery, so mind your step....a fall could be quite painful:yes:

Thank you, oh Great Knower of All Truth.

It is good to realize that when we become confused, we have your Great Feet to come and sit at and receive the knowledge directly!

Meanwhile, most of us will just plug along in our imperfect ways.

 

[oldbadger]

....you mean all 73 pages of idiots claiming to know something someone else doesn't?

....... 73 pages of idiots? ........ claiming to know something.......?

There have been many questions on this thread, but no idiots, friend. However, since you believe that you've got it clued up, could I repeat some, just some, of the unanswered questions? These are all pertinent, believe me.

How many Romans were in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast?
Did the Romans exhibit crosses at all the city's entrances as a visual deterrent to trouble?
Did the Romans 'police' the Temple precoincts during the three major feasts, and if so, how deeply into the complex?
Why did an Aramaic speaking Galilean Father call his son by a Greek+ name?
Could Joseph have possibly bribed the decurion present at the crucifixion to report to Pilate that he was dead, when he was not? (We have heard from outhouse that Titus spared three convicts for Josephus, one actiually surviving, as written in Josephus's memoirs).

Any one answered would be a great help.

 

[arcanum]

....... 73 pages of idiots? ........ claiming to know something.......?

There have been many questions on this thread, but no idiots, friend. However, since you believe that you've got it clued up, could I repeat some, just some, of the unanswered questions? These are all pertinent, believe me.

How many Romans were in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast?
Did the Romans exhibit crosses at all the city's entrances as a visual deterrent to trouble?
Did the Romans 'police' the Temple precoincts during the three major feasts, and if so, how deeply into the complex?
Why did an Aramaic speaking Galilean Father call his son by a Greek+ name?
Could Joseph have possibly bribed the decurion present at the crucifixion to report to Pilate that he was dead, when he was not? (We have heard from outhouse that Titus spared three convicts for Josephus, one actiually surviving, as written in Josephus's memoirs).

Any one answered would be a great help.

... Okay I was only being half serious in my remark and frankly I was being a "insert proper term here, and I do apologize. Some of these questions that you ask I don't claim to be able to answer. When you start digging into early christian history, it can take you in many different places, all of which are a specialty. When we really try and stand on solid footing in regards to early christian history we find ourselves on shifting sand, what in one minute which seemed solid shifts beneath our feet in the next. I've looked into what we have for material for a long time now and have had my foundations shaken. Growing up as a fundamentalist christian, My main interest out of all of this, is probably the Gnostic approach and literature. Direct contact with god with out a middle man, sounds about right to me.:rainbow1:

 

[oldbadger]

... Okay I was only being half serious in my remark and frankly I was being a "insert proper term here, and I do apologize. Some of these questions that you ask I don't claim to be able to answer. When you start digging into early christian history, it can take you in many different places, all of which are a specialty. When we really try and stand on solid footing in regards to early christian history we find ourselves on shifting sand, what in one minute which seemed solid shifts beneath our feet in the next. I've looked into what we have for material for a long time now and have had my foundations shaken. Growing up as a fundamentalist christian, My main interest out of all of this, is probably the Gnostic approach and literature. Direct contact with god with out a middle man, sounds about right to me.:rainbow1:

Cool. No probs....

A lot of the posters on this thread either were or came from deeply religious backgrounds. I believe that there was a Galilean artisan who had an amazing ability to heal in various ways, who picked up John the Baptist's mission after his arrest, and continued with it for about a year after that.

There are as many 'positions' as there are posters on this...
Some members moan every time that they see a thread that leads to a 'Historic Jesus' debate, but none of those members has ever answered all (or close to all) of the questions that we seek answers to.... and so the more we argue, so the more we learn, even if some do not admit that they were ever taught anything from anybody....

 

[arcanum]

Cool. No probs....

A lot of the posters on this thread either were or came from deeply religious backgrounds. I believe that there was a Galilean artisan who had an amazing ability to heal in various ways, who picked up John the Baptist's mission after his arrest, and continued with it for about a year after that.

There are as many 'positions' as there are posters on this...
Some members moan every time that they see a thread that leads to a 'Historic Jesus' debate, but none of those members has ever answered all (or close to all) of the questions that we seek answers to.... and so the more we argue, so the more we learn, even if some do not admit that they were ever taught anything from anybody....

Yes brother, it does seem to me like that your line of questioning seems to be a specialty, As I've mentioned when you start getting in to this stuff it can go in a variety of different directions. I guess we are fortunate that it's not so easily understood and able to be put up on a shelf like a museum piece, that there is still a little mystery to it all.....for now.

 

[outhouse]

You're mistaken. Sorry. He speaks of no Jesus who walked the streets of 30 CE Jerusalem.

Sorry.

He does.

Your just trying to twist the scripture into something it never tried to say.


I think they claim Davidic lineage and another passage deals squarely with a earthly Jesus Doherty has to poorly dance around.

 

[outhouse]

Whoa whoah, what? Do you think you can just lay that down as fact and say sorry done deal and braise on by? You're mistaken my friend, sorely mistaken. Do I need to prove it to you? I can if I have to, but are you that intellectually lazy to find evidence contrary to what you want to believe? Sorry if this is contrary the the little Jesus box you've constructed, your own personal little Jesus box that you put up on a shelf? Paul indeed does speak of a human flesh and blood Jesus who was born of a woman and died. He also talks about meeting with James and Peter as well as the reminder of the Jesus movement? Now, whatchu got homeboy?

Your correct.


You can tell by the weakness of his reply being nothing more then Nuh Uh!

 

[Thief]

Going back to to the original question: If he was just "a fraud" well then hell, if that's so then his influence is the biggest mental virus meme that ever infected the human psyche. Why are we still talking about this man? Why if he was just a fraud, a charlatan, a delusional preacher,....why are you people even still talking about him?

I would agree?
and then consider His words.....was He really trying to fake something?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Your just trying to twist the scripture into something it never tried to say.

Oh my. How very fundamentalist of you.

I think they claim Davidic lineage and another passage deals squarely with a earthly Jesus Doherty has to poorly dance around.

Who is Jesus Doherty? And what the heck are you talking about?

 

[outhouse]

How many Romans were in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast?.

Im still looking for my source. So don't expect one.

Its said there were roughly a few hundred permanent temple guards and 600 troops in the tower.


I have also read more came in with Pilate to police the event.


I will say enough to control almost half a million people, although estimates do range over a million people, im happier with half that.

Did the Romans exhibit crosses at all the city's entrances as a visual deterrent to trouble?

Did they put them in remote locations when trying to set an example?

Did the Romans 'police' the Temple precoincts during the three major feasts, and if so, how deeply into the complex?

Yes. Complete freedom to go where needed.


Obviously they would not be needed in the inner court where their presence would start a riot.

Keeping peace was the directive as to keep the money flowing.

Why did an Aramaic speaking Galilean Father call his son by a Greek+ name?

He would not have.

That would be the authors mistakes.

Could Joseph have possibly bribed the decurion present at the crucifixion to report to Pilate that he was dead, when he was not?

Would a roman face the death penalty because a peasant tried to bribe him.

Not a chance.

(We have heard from outhouse that Titus spared three convicts for Josephus, one actiually surviving, as written in Josephus's memoirs).

Which in comparison, is nothing more then a straw man in the context your using it.

A impossibility.

 

[outhouse]

Read this describing Passover.

I have 4 or 5 times and still need to read to try and retain more.

Jesus' Last Passover Meal

 

[outhouse]

Here ya go oldbadger, a legion ish


The Temple Mount at Jerusalem






Fort Antonia and the Roman Legion

A Roman Legion had 5,000 infantry troops and with them 5,000 support personnel. There were 833 military personal per acre within Fort Antonia.

The Roman garrison was the dominant feature of Jerusalem, a continuous reminder to the Jews of Rome’s supremacy. Further, being four and one-half times greater in area than the Temple Mount, Fort Antonia was intimidating and therefore a successful tool of psychological warfare to secure Jewish conformity to Roman authority.

The crowds that assembled at the Temple during the Holy Days were overseen by 2,000 Roman troops. In order to prevent disorder and riots among the Jews, they were stationed on a 45-foot wide walkway built atop the four colonnades that surrounded the Temple grounds. During the Jewish festivals, there were three rotations of guards, totaling 6,000 soldiers, each day.

 

[steeltoes]

Oh my. How very fundamentalist of you.



Who is Jesus Doherty? And what the heck are you talking about?

I think we are supposed to believe the story is true, as if it virtuous to believe.