Could Jesus Have Been Simply a Fraud?

[oldbadger]

Well shucks, once again, I am bewildered at how your faith and ability to discern personal traits magically through the internet ... contrasts with that desire for a personal, evidenced, and thus explainable, journey toward truth.

I mean at any point you could have simply laid out the case .. and have continuously failed to do so.

Instead, you employ overt fallacy:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-emotion

Gee, I'd certainly lay out my diabolical (yes, yes ... ha ha) ... er, rational case against Jesus, but you see YOU are just too deep in the cups of the myth - which is evidenced by the fact that you asked me for evidence rather than just taking my word ... and you actually appear to know what the hell you are talking about ... so I'll just appeal to spite.

In fact, I'm just cross over into full on ad hominem by vacuously comparing you to a an Inquisitor. Because discussions based on evidence are actually ... torture?

At this point I feel its worth mentioning that there is a point where simple conspiracy, which employs absurdity to maintain an illogical belief, becomes something more ... simple abuse.

And I am beginning to see that in your posts.

Anyone who agrees with you is auto magically (huh, auto correct actually got that one right?) smarter than DaVinci, More loft than Jesus himself (who is apparently a myth, so that isn't saying much?), more beautiful than Cyndi Crawford, more profound than Abraham Lincoln.

The actual strength of the claim, even overt errors in claim don't matter, only agreement.

And disagreement?

Those who disagree are automatically dumb. They are ugly. Deceitful. Nasty. Or whatever pejorative an abuser can use to prevent sustained disagreement and assume control of the person.

Its a tactic that I find particularly distasteful, and one that I feel its worth reminding people about. Because the ultimate goal of such behavior is quite literally to cull the weak from the strong, to find those who who are susceptible to blind delivery of praise and insult and whose behavior can be modified by through this application.

Those who would cull people for such an intent are rarely of good intent.

Ergo, I humbly submit that you offer more in way of discussion than insults and derision toward disagreement and blind praise for any agreement no matter how loony. It sends a VERY bad vibe.

Ahhh.... Ahhhh! Naughty. More than seven lines of rubbish.

 

[oldbadger]

So he fed thousands?

....... no probs at all.

You never answered my question, either on this or another thread, I forget which. :- Why did the disciples pick up the food scraps.......... many baskets of them? Why?

 

[outhouse]

....... no probs at all.

You never answered my question, either on this or another thread, I forget which. :- Why did the disciples pick up the food scraps.......... many baskets of them? Why?

Was a fictional account in my opinion.

Crowds that size would be mowed down as a threat to Antipas.

 

[oldbadger]

If that were the case, Antipas would have his head like John.

You don't think Jesus learned from Johns mistakes of large crowds?

You've half answered your own question with the above two sentences.
Yeshua liked to arrange meetings by the foreshore, and often gave speech from boats, to reach larger audiences. He could escape either ashore or afloat, as need arose. And he was more easily heard that way. Don't fall into the old trap here........

Funny.

he lived and died for him.

Paul? Rubbish. Paul cared nothing for him, did not focus upon the person, just cared about how he wanted the religion to move.

Before his action in the temple he was unknown.
He was not noticed by any priesthood.

Not true...... the priesthood worried about him long before.

There were thousands of teachers like him, the only difference is they didn't get noticed by half a million people at Passover, jesus did.

There it is........ the Johanine influence yet again. He was a HEALER, first, a public speaker in his mission. Get G-John's 2nd century juggling out of your head if you want to be a proper HJ researcher. Be careful or I will quote scholars at you which you then must accept..... true?

 

[oldbadger]

Sorry, but I am indeed God's best mate. I am an actual and genine prophet of God.

But not to worry. We don't hold grudges.

I blooming hope not. A frubal might help? :help:

 

[oldbadger]

That's not my experience of steeltoes. To me, he seems to know way more than anyone else about the HJ question, but for some reason seems reticent to engage the debate as forcefully as he might.

I believe he is a HJ master. .......... with-holds sting and steel-capped boot until really necessary.

 

[oldbadger]

Was a fictional account in my opinion.

Crowds that size would be mowed down as a threat to Antipas.

How wrong you are!
You cannot have ever thought carefully enough about those folks, their lives, their needs, their mindsets. This one point shows how far you still are from the truth about those people.
They always picked up food scraps, however dirty or bad they might be.
You need to find the answer for yourself.
It's there, right before your eyes (as you read the accounts)

 

[outhouse]

How wrong you are!

Yet you cannot make a credile case to back what you posit.

 

[oldbadger]

Was a fictional account in my opinion.

Crowds that size would be mowed down as a threat to Antipas.

OMG.......

The crowds.....
Now, where was Antipas stationed.... his HQ? OK?
Now...... where did Yeshua take his group and allow the crowds to gather?

Now........ look at the map and compare the two positions. Was that a good choice of place? It was one of the safest. Trans-Jordan, or Trans-Lake. Pretty good choice.

And that feast...... I laugh every time I think of it. He was a very very clever guy. When you see it (as perfect truth) you might laugh out loud. It was true, there is no doubt in my mind.

And those food scraps..... sometimes things just click together.

 

[outhouse]

It was true, there is no doubt in my mind.

.

Thats wonderful.

Just dont try and pass it off to anyone else without substantiating it.

 

[oldbadger]

Yet you cannot make a credile case to back what you posit.

Yes I could........ discover a thing for yourself and you will cherish it. I do not need to prove my point on this one..... don't care to.....

It interests me that so far, no NT scholar (that I have read) has focused closely upon the following subjects:-

Customs and licensing enforcement on the Lake.
Restrictions and rules for licensed boats, etc, upon the lake.
Licensee scams upon the lake.
Shoreline netting......
The Linseed crop and industries.....
...... and more....


You see, until they get closer to these subjects they will not get close enough to the people, and will not be able to guesstimate how those people would think or react. Many of Yeshua's followers were fisherfolk, whom he was very close to. You cannot get close enough to these folks ........... huge gaps.....

 

[oldbadger]

Thats wonderful.

Just dont try and pass it off to anyone else without substantiating it.

That's fair enough........ I won't pass it off, but if you think long and hard about those people and their ways, and Yeshua's obvious outstanding mind...... things click.

 

[outhouse]

Yes I could........ discover a thing for yourself and you will cherish it. I do not need to prove my point on this one..... don't care to.....

It interests me that so far, no NT scholar (that I have read) has focused closely upon the following subjects:-

Customs and licensing enforcement on the Lake.
Restrictions and rules for licensed boats, etc, upon the lake.
Licensee scams upon the lake.
Shoreline netting......
The Linseed crop and industries.....
...... and more....


You see, until they get closer to these subjects they will not get close enough to the people, and will not be able to guesstimate how those people would think or react. Many of Yeshua's followers were fisherfolk, whom he was very close to. You cannot get close enough to these folks ........... huge gaps.....

I do not agree. They were primitiv epeole living primitive lives steeped in mythology, while being oppressed by Hellenist working hand in hand with Romans

 

[oldbadger]

I do not agree. They were primitiv epeole living primitive lives steeped in mythology, while being oppressed by Hellenist working hand in hand with Romans

That is sad. You have just slammed the door on the lives, feelings, thoughts, needs, superstitions and obsessions of those people. That's no good.

They were not primitive....... they were well beyond the stone age. The ports of Sidon and Tyre had been receiving tin from abroad for thousands of years already. They were into and beyond the bronze age. They could produce linen, clothing, nets, sizeable boats, etc etc..... Like humans everywhere, they were clever.

How many American (and Brit) citizens are steeped in mythology today?
The Herodian (Antipas) Government was not working hand-in-hand with the Romans!! It was managing all by itself!

With every mistake you make about the people, it displaces you further and further away from them. You cannot afford that.

 

[steeltoes]

from the Christ Myth Theory wiki link:

" The only two events subject to almost universal assent among biblical scholars are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate."

Some aren't so sure...


...and that is all it takes folks for lines to be drawn and aspersions to be flung.


Who's primitive now?

 

[newgodthinker]

A really nice fraud?! His coolness makes your question irrelevant, I think.

 

[outhouse]

That is sad. You have just slammed the door on the lives, feelings, thoughts, needs, superstitions and obsessions of those people. That's no good.

.

The truth hurts I know.

They were not primitive....... they were well beyond the stone age.

They were very primitive.

Just because they were not as primitive as cavemen means nothing at all.

How many American (and Brit) citizens are steeped in mythology today?

Most are, even atheist like me live mythology. I also pass santa for presents, easter for egg hunting, tooth fairy for a buck. ect ect

The difference is, I know it is mythology, not reality.

You cannot afford that

I don't tell you what you can or cannot afford, so don't start with me. Your wrong going there.

 

[Thief]

Not an error. It was fictional rhetoric used to help compete against the Emperors divinity.

The movement sought gentiles who had to worship the Emperor, which spoke to large crowds in amphitheaters.

So the unknown authors placed Jesus in front of large crowds as well.


Its like the fictional "Sermon on the mount" the unknown authors did not even know where it happened because it did not happen. One places it on a hill, the other a valley floor. And his parables were ment to be heard one at a time and digested. They loose all meaning rambled off, one after another. Scholars claim it was probably a collection of parables added to the books. And of course each unknown authors version is night and day different. [hint because they were not there]

So now you're quoting unknown authors....so to speak...

Dismissing matters of faith in a religious forum amounts to what?...credibility?

I don't think so.
You can't use your lame history book here.
Your history can't say it didn't happen.

That you don't believe doesn't make you credible....just cynical.

 

[outhouse]

Your history can't say it didn't happen.

.

Actually it can.


It is you that cannot say mythology happened.

 

[Thief]

Actually it can.


It is you that cannot say mythology happened.

So...there was some historian right there on hand writing it all down?
Or was he NOT writing it down because he couldn't believe what he saw?

I think you've given yourself to the blind.