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Could we all be right?

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think your missing my point. Im not talking about the laws as such being the same. the laws lead to the same outcome but they were always going to be a little different as the people who recieved them are different and have applied them to a different era, time, world. Its the message that runs through them is what I believe is identical. And I didnt say that I havent read any of the books rather I havent read all of the books of every religion. The message is static.
No, the message is not identical, or static. Don't you see the folly of continuing to assert this without even having read them?

Basically every aspect that one can think of is different. The relevance of god(s), the nature of god(s), the personalities of god(s), claims regarding what the ultimate problem and solution are, differing approaches on how to treat humans and animals, different and conflicting descriptions regarding how existence operates, different and conflicting descriptions regarding the afterlife and it's place within the religion, etc.

Saying they all point towards the same message is like saying Gandhi and Stalin both meant the same thing. They didn't. :shrug:
 

TJ73

Active Member
The Quaran says, roughly, "You are allowed to kill infidels."
The New Testament says, roughly, "You are not allowed to kill anyone."

That is not an identical message. That is a diametrically opposite message.

I totally get what you are saying. It is rather simple. But I don't know how but I really think there is a "unified theory" of faith. It is as difficult to come to as the unified theory in science, but I feel they both exist... and although this may make you cringe, I think they are connected, perhaps even the same.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Man I wish I could have stayed on last night to continue with this thread. I missed some good stuff!
What I am proposing is not provable and so hard to explain. It is like trying explain other dimensions or some other kind of abstract concept.
Bu to touch on one point I saw, about atheists. I said how they can be right , along side theisits being also right. In my limited-ness, I see it as a different name given to the same concept.
OK let me see if I can explain what I think...
There is this all encompassing construct. It can be described as totaly natural or totaly metaphysical and that is correct, either way because natuarally certain events "bubble up" out of this construct and because they are not observed from a scientific position they are not perceived as natural but rather metaphysical. So, for example, when people converge over time into a large enough group and a society forms some breakdowns will occur according to biology, geography, time, economics, proximity to other societies, sex, blah blah blah. Ok, so now ( I'm gonna sound like I've watched the Matrix a few hundred times) now, a natural and/or metaphysical "bubble" surfaces as the society reaches a critical stage... you get a prophet and a revelation. And they are not just the ones of any particular scripture. I think this is a part of nature that can occur on a small or large scale( an office to a country, or global) The things that are reveled are initially helpful and have potential for sustaining the society, but further pressure and another bubble has to arise. Please be gentle on me scientists, but I see it could be like the way time has to change for the speed of light to remain constant. The pressures of growing humanity( perhaps our consciousness) stimulates revelation. The revelations seem retarded to us as we move on depending on how we look at them. If looked at as having the potential to have multiple layers of meaning and mailable then they can be eternally preserved and useful.
I'll wait to see if this topic continues before i go on.

I totally get what you are saying. It is rather simple. But I don't know how but I really think there is a "unified theory" of faith. It is as difficult to come to as the unified theory in science, but I feel they both exist... and although this may make you cringe, I think they are connected, perhaps even the same.
Saying that there are deeper meanings behind religions and saying that everyone is right are two very different propositions.

If a thing is helpful and practical, but not accurate, then it simply is not accurate. If people think they have the entire picture, but really they only have a small sample of the picture, then they were mistaken regarding their level of accuracy and completeness.

If the "unified theory" of faith combines several concepts, then many of the other concepts are necessarily incorrect and must be let go, because they were not accurate.
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
I totally get what you are saying. It is rather simple. But I don't know how but I really think there is a "unified theory" of faith. It is as difficult to come to as the unified theory in science, but I feel they both exist... and although this may make you cringe, I think they are connected, perhaps even the same.
There are ways to say that all religions are divinely inspired, but they involve whatever's doing the inspiring lying to us.
 

TJ73

Active Member
There are ways to say that all religions are divinely inspired, but they involve whatever's doing the inspiring lying to us.
What i am getting at is that what is inspiring us can no lye to us because it just is. It would be like saying a rock it lying or the sun is lying. It IS and the natural construct of It being has effects that are easily observable,predictable and some that are not so, but are equally produced by the BEING ( and I mean that word in 2 senses).
So like the rock. You drop it in a pool and observe a ripple and eventually it stops. You hear the "plop" , see the ripple and that's it. If that is what you report, you are not lying and neither is the rock or the event untrue, but a lot more happened under the surface that you did not observe. So one under the surface said the was a "plunk" and a wave. The observation is equally correct but not from your POV. And somewhere in the middle is another POV. But there is still one event.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Here's my issue with religious syncretism:

Let's say I have a 20 year old Ford Taurus that is falling apart. For some reason, it's really sentimental to me, so I don't want to get a new car, but instead I want to make this car amazing. So I put $30,000 into it, giving it a new engine, huge rims, a loud sound system, totally new paint and a body kit, new seats, an engine boost, a moon roof, and basically every other absurdity I can think of.

Is my car awesome? No. It's an old Ford Taurus with a bunch of expensive things stuffed into it. It's fundamentally flawed, because its frame is crappy and I won't have very good handling, plus there will inevitably be some things that were not replaced and are still old. There are a bunch of "holes" or "gaps" in my design, because I began with an inherently flawed thing.

If I would have taken that $30,000, and carefully analyzed the car market, read reviews, performed test drives, and so forth, I could have gotten a much better car that will last longer, has better handling and performance, and looks better, because it was designed from the ground up with better technology and a more uniform design process.

The Ford Taurus approach is what religious syncretists do. Syncretists do have some admirable qualities: they generally have risen above ethnocentrism and small thinking, they are generally worldly and conscious towards what other people believe, their syncretist result is generally better than some of the religions out there (as long as you don't look too closely). But it's still flawed. They can't let things go.

There's no reason to take an inherently flawed message, and try to combine it with other inherently flawed messages to try to suggest that they are all great and they all work together. They don't. It's like trying to look through a list of Gandhi and Stalin quotes and attempting to point out that they meant the same thing with a few selective remarks. Some of them are completely opposed and contradicting. Whether it's because of being sentimental or because one doesn't want to have conflict and wants to think everyone is right, some syncretists try to stick with a flawed design and mixing and matching dissimilar aspects and what they come up with is a Frankenstein monster.

Arguing that the Qur'an and the Bhagavad Gita say the same thing just doesn't hold at all under scrutiny. Arguing that Buddhist principles and the cannon Gospels of Jesus are inherently the same message is inaccurate. Even if they have a few matches, it doesn't make sense to keep the entire flawed frame. At some point an intellectually honest person has to say "I don't believe this", or "this is inaccurate" or "this message is more ethical and rational than that one" or "this may have been relevant at one time, but is not anymore".
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
Here's my issue with religious syncretism:

Let's say I have a 20 year old Ford Taurus that is falling apart. For some reason, it's really sentimental to me, so I don't want to get a new car, but instead I want to make this car amazing. So I put $30,000 into it, giving it a new engine, huge rims, a loud sound system, totally new paint and a body kit, new seats, an engine boost, a moon roof, and basically every other absurdity I can think of.

Is my car awesome? No. It's an old Ford Taurus with a bunch of expensive things stuffed into it. It's fundamentally flawed, because its frame is crappy and I won't have very good handling, plus there will inevitably be some things that were not replaced and are still old. There are a bunch of "holes" or "gaps" in my design, because I began with an inherently flawed thing.

If I would have taken that $30,000, and carefully analyzed the car market, read reviews, performed test drives, and so forth, I could have gotten a much better car that will last longer, has better handling and performance, and looks better, because it was designed from the ground up with better technology and a more uniform design process.
I find your analogy to be flawed.

Holy writ contains binding covenants upon certain individual's posterity. These terms don't go away just because we want them to.

You need to look at your lifetime here in the flesh as an experience only made possible by the vehicle we drive here, which is our physical body. We made the choice as to which car we drive, so to speak, prior to coming here in the flesh. If you have in you the blood of Abraham then it is your responsibility to pay attention to the instruction manual. If you don't, then this you do at your own peril because all of the terms and conditions outlined in the instruction manual are binding, regardless of how simplistic and primitive you think they are.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
That would be the case if one is a syncretist who takes religious texts as literal, Penumbra. I, however, am not one of these.
 

TJ73

Active Member
I see you point. But i don not agree that any particular message is inherently flawed. I can see how perspective can make someone see it that way. There are many thing that I have listened to here on RF about this religion or that. Take a basic belief, practice or scripture and give an opinion that it makes no sense , the favorite term is illogical. I certainly can see where they could draw that conclusion if they stand still, firm in their position. I can see another side as well.
I am going through what I go through all the time. I keep coming back to this no matter how hard I try to just go with the flow.
I wouldn't say you could call me a religious syncretist, because wouldn't that necessarily reject science? I don't. But I do have some nagging issue with connectivness. I just imagine that everything somehow fits, or maybe I can't imagine that everything doesn't somehow fit.
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
Whether it is by our choice or as a result of our choices, it is the same.
And, whether we disagree or not, it is irrelevant. If you disagree with this, you disagree with the existence of choice itself.

Of course, all choices have consequences... And, those we do not choose, except according to our knowledge of the truth and acting in accordance to it in order to make ourselves worthy of the consequences we desire.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I find your analogy to be flawed.

Holy writ contains binding covenants upon certain individual's posterity. These terms don't go away just because we want them to.

You need to look at your lifetime here in the flesh as an experience only made possible by the vehicle we drive here, which is our physical body. We made the choice as to which car we drive, so to speak, prior to coming here in the flesh. If you have in you the blood of Abraham then it is your responsibility to pay attention to the instruction manual. If you don't, then this you do at your own peril because all of the terms and conditions outlined in the instruction manual are binding, regardless of how simplistic and primitive you think they are.
That doesn't address my point.

That would be the case if one is a syncretist who takes religious texts as literal, Penumbra. I, however, am not one of these.
Pretty much to even be a syncretist, one has to take much of the texts as non-literal. I haven't yet met a syncretist that takes all of those texts thoroughly literally.

Therefore, this was specifically written with non-literal syncretists in mind. Saying "he meant this" even though he said this in the text, which is completely opposite, in order to fit it with another belief, doesn't hold under reasonable scrutiny. Some messages have to be more or less accurate than others. Various religions have died out. Various religions have sprouted. Even if there exists a true religion that pulls elements from a few existent or extinct religions, then aspects that were not pulled are incorrect.

People come up with ideas every day. Some of them are practical, and some of them are impractical. Some of them are locally useful, some of them are broadly applicable, and some are just plain unhelpful. Some are accurate descriptions of reality, and some are not.

If one religion states that people live once, and are judged, and need salvation by an external deity, then it's drastically different from a religion that says we live in the cycle of samsara, and that ultimately gods are irrelevant and we must self-liberate. One or both claims are largely incorrect or drastically, drastically incomplete.

I see you point. But i don not agree that any particular message is inherently flawed. I can see how perspective can make someone see it that way. There are many thing that I have listened to here on RF about this religion or that. Take a basic belief, practice or scripture and give an opinion that it makes no sense , the favorite term is illogical. I certainly can see where they could draw that conclusion if they stand still, firm in their position. I can see another side as well.
If people are willing to put forth justification for why a given system, which has been explained to be illogical by someone else, is indeed logical, then this is the forum for that.

Some people, however, ignore the well-constructed arguments for given claim's irrationality, and instead simply continue to assert that it's logical. Claims should be well-defended.

I am going through what I go through all the time. I keep coming back to this no matter how hard I try to just go with the flow.
I wouldn't say you could call me a religious syncretist, because wouldn't that necessarily reject science? I don't. But I do have some nagging issue with connectivness. I just imagine that everything somehow fits, or maybe I can't imagine that everything doesn't somehow fit.
Religious syncretists do not necessarily reject science. Far from it, usually. Syncretists are individuals, so I'm speaking generally here, but a lot of them tend to utilize pseudoscience or misunderstandings of real science. There's a lot of literature, for example, with syncretists trying to use quantum mechanics to justify their beliefs, and saying it proves them to be true, when really, most of them do not understand quantum mechanics or have the appropriate education, and are making erroneous claims that can be pointed out by someone who is truly knowledgeable on the subject.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Whether it is by our choice or as a result of our choices, it is the same.
And, whether we disagree or not, it is irrelevant. If you disagree with this, you disagree with the existence of choice itself.

did you choose to be born?
did you choose where you were born...?
ultimately we are subjected to chemical reactions...like it or not.


Of course, all choices have consequences... And, those we do not choose, except according to our knowledge of the truth and acting in accordance to it in order to make ourselves worthy of the consequences we desire.

acting in accordance to the chemical reactions in our brain?
 

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
Whether it is by our choice or as a result of our choices, it is the same.
And, whether we disagree or not, it is irrelevant. If you disagree with this, you disagree with the existence of choice itself.
It is completely ridiculous to suggest we chose anything before we are born, since anything we could reasonably call "us" or "I" doesn't exist yet.
 

TJ73

Active Member
Penumbra, Although I am not a trained scientist in the world we live in today science is pretty widely available in an easy to understand format. There is plenty of sources available to help anyone understand a good deal of science relative to the modern world and sources by which to check the accuracy. Yes I know all about "The Secret" and "What The Bleep...", just some folks exercising Capitalism.
It is hard to do the thing you suggest like arguing how something could hold multiple meanings because the listeners would have to receptive to the idea that there is possible more to what IS than what we know. I guess that's the real division. People that believe think there is more than we can currently prove, even if that "more" is just how it is observed.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Penumbra, Although I am not a trained scientist in the world we live in today science is pretty widely available in an easy to understand format. There is plenty of sources available to help anyone understand a good deal of science relative to the modern world and sources by which to check the accuracy. Yes I know all about "The Secret" and "What The Bleep...", just some folks exercising Capitalism.
Science is indeed widely available, with plenty of sources. The problem is not the availability, but the application and the mindset.

There are some people that, for example, learn some things about quantum mechanics for the sake of learning about it. In the realm of syncretist pop culture, however, there are those that learn only enough about quantum mechanics to try to use it to add false legitimacy to their points, and they formed their conclusion before the research. It's a matter of intellectual honesty and consistency, or the lack there of.

A popular example of this is Deepak Chopra. He uses obscure scientific terminology to try to make his points sound legitimate, when people who are actually knowledgeable about those topics plainly point out his lack of knowledge in the area.

Here are some clips from a debate with Harris, Chopra, and others, if interested. (Two atheists and two syncretists). I recommend to anyone interested to watch the whole debate, but it is quite long. Jean Houston was unfortunately largely irrelevant, but Shermer, Chopra, and particularly Harris argued their specific points.

More specifically, if you don't want to watch the whole long thing, to get an example of what I mean by pseudoscience or misunderstanding of real science, watch the links below. Beginning half way through part two, and throughout part three, Chopra makes statements regarding quantum mechanics to back up his claims, yet is demonstrated to be incorrect. He simply doesn't know what he's talking about. Not only do the others point out his errors, but a phD from the audience gets up later in the QandA session to point out that he was incorrect.

[youtube]99oYQ7aJzoM[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99oYQ7aJzoM&feature=related
[youtube]Mt4llz_WI9o[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt4llz_WI9o&feature=related
[youtube]-y5D7q1O1Uk[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y5D7q1O1Uk&feature=related

It is hard to do the thing you suggest like arguing how something could hold multiple meanings because the listeners would have to receptive to the idea that there is possible more to what IS than what we know. I guess that's the real division. People that believe think there is more than we can currently prove, even if that "more" is just how it is observed.
Plenty of people are receptive, but any legitimate claim has to be well-justified.
 

TJ73

Active Member
I certainly agree there are a lot of youtube scientists out there seeking more to enrich their pockets than the knowledge of humanity.
I am going to go watch these, I'll be back later...
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It can be a lot to think about but suppose...
At some point we are somehow informed, we have a simultaneous revelation or epiphany that we are right. All forms of belief are correct. I think it is possible.
That we could find out that yes, the universe is full of love and hate, good and bad. The choices available can be both right and wrong.
That the different manifestations thought to be God, all are. All scripture is also true and the only thing that changes is perspective. And even atheism is correct in that everything is everything and always has been and it is OK to call God or not.
It's hard to get this out in any sensible manner, but I swear it looks right swirling around in my head.
I can't say I agree that two diametrically opposing positions on something can both be equally correct, but I definitely feel that by sincerely attempting to understand positions other than our own, we can find far, far more to agree upon than we might expect. I am always looking for similarities between religions and nothing pleases me more than discovering an area of agreement.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It is completely ridiculous to suggest we chose anything before we are born, since anything we could reasonably call "us" or "I" doesn't exist yet.
How do you know this? I mean I would expect an atheist to say this, but I disagree. I believe my spirit has existed for billions of years, and while I admit I'm pretty old, my body hasn't been around quite that long.
 
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