Could we all be right?

[TJ73]

I can sum up my feeling on this video pretty easy, I think. It was interesting to watch. I think there is a desire for it to be this vs. that or I'm wrong but so are you. I find myself leaning toward the later. I really understand and like the way Mike and Sam made it clear that there is no room for fuzzy words and "woo-woo" in science. I didn't respond well to that at first but after it was repeated a little differently at the end it is so obvious. You can not conduct experimentation or make theoretical pronouncements or solve equations if some of the values are obscured. It is so critical to science that all factors have a known and acceptable value that can be recognized by anyone trained in a particular field.
I felt more comfortable when it was stated later because I also heard mike acknowledge that the possibility of other things is there. He was talking about evolution and the complexity of systems. He responded to the question" are we here by accident"? He said "no" he does not believe we are.
What I think is important to take away from this is that although we may one day find a convergence of what are now metaphysical concepts into science, it can not and will not take place by simply using words to make connections without proof. You can not take words and obscure their values to suit and support your belief and still consider it science.
I personally feel that we will all have a great epiphany. I think we are more than physical beings. I believe we are spiritual creations. I believe in some piece of us continues in some fashion beyond our bodies. This is my belief, a sense I have not a scientific fact. Doesn't mean it can never be a fact but I can't use what is available to make a pronouncement of scientific fact.
But I also KNOW that in order for us to learn anything about the universe we live in and observe my beliefs can not be a part of the equation. If Newton had a metaphysical idea about objects attraction to the Earth we would not have our current understanding of gravity and rocket science. I can understand a scientists absolute need for separation from religion and spiritual thinking in order to properly perform.
That being said I also appreciate people that have a great sense of the spiritual nature of things. I am one of those people. I am eager for science to bring greater understanding of the universe and as it is not my field I am free think about connections and interaction with God as I have no influence on the work being done. And that's it, leave the scientists to their work and the prophets to theirs without trying to distract either one from their task. And also to recognize that while you are dedicated to one you may not fully grasp the other, so there is no need to discount their respective work. Maybe we are moving up from the base of a triangle and we will someday meet at the tip.


and fall off and have to start over, lol

 

[McBell]

I believe my spirit has existed for billions of years, and while I admit I'm pretty old, my body hasn't been around quite that long.

You base this beleif of yours on what, exactly?

 

[YmirGF]

You base this beleif of yours on what, exactly?

I do have to stick up for Kathryn here, in that though we have significant differences in our ancillary beliefs attached to this one, we both believe a similar thing. My belief is based on my own inner experience of being quite conscious outside of the confines of space and time. In that delusion experience, I am timeless, have always been, am now and always will be. (So, get used to me, lol.)

That said, I see no real point in developing a syncretic approach to bolster the thinking of others, to present a "unified field theory" of religion. Yes, there are aspects of all religions that I find to be somewhat true and helpful. That appeals to my emotional nature. My rational mind however has grave issues with many things taught in the various religions, enough to make me not want to encourage them, due to their hit and frequent miss approach of inspired thoughts. My biggest issue with religious thought is the fraudulent appeal to faith. Um, yeah. Sure.

 

[waitasec]

How do you know this? I mean I would expect an atheist to say this, but I disagree. I believe my spirit has existed for billions of years, and while I admit I'm pretty old, my body hasn't been around quite that long.

curious, how do you account for "new souls"?

there are more people now than ever...

 

[Katzpur]

You base this beleif of yours on what, exactly?

LDS doctrine, latter-day revelation, although the Bible does hint at a pre-mortal existence and, as with most LDS doctrines, there is some evidence that the earliest Christians believed in it. I can elaborate if you want me to.

 

[Katzpur]

curious, how do you account for "new souls"?

there are more people now than ever...

I'm afraid I really don't understand your question, waitasec. Could you maybe rephrase it?

 

[blackout]

In the sense that we are all the subjective
dancing (in some kind of step) with the objective
we are all 'the same' in the most general and fundamental sense
of our "being".

The human Psyche works as it works.
The UniVerse at large
works as it works.
They/We work together, as they/we work.
In the sense that we all "believe things"
about Self and UniVerse,
we all "activate" that relationship.

It's less a matter of "being right" though,
and more a matter
of being and becoming.

What we actually 'believe' is more accurately expressed/realized
in what we do
than in what we say.

 

[waitasec]

I'm afraid I really don't understand your question, waitasec. Could you maybe rephrase it?

sure..
from what you said i assumed you believe in reincarnation...
is that true?

if that is the case, i'm just wondering how the population grows with the same souls being reincarnated...


just the other day my son, who has no religious back ground, said that after we die we come back as something else....maybe he picked it up from watching "the last air bender"

 

[waitasec]

What we actually 'believe' is more accurately expressed/realized
in what we do
than in what we say.

that is absolutely true
:candle:

 

[BruceDLimber]

So God is lying to at least half of the world? (After all, no one religion covers more than 50% of all people, and most religions contradict each other to varying degrees.)

No, if you actually READ THE QUOTE, it explains exactly why the differences exist!

So said "contradictions" are in fact no problem whatever because each religion was revealed for a specific Age and circumstance, which circumstances clearly CHANGE over time!

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Katzpur]

sure..
from what you said i assumed you believe in reincarnation...
is that true?

Oh, I see! No, we don't believe in re-incarnation. We believe that God created the spirits of all life prior to the time He created the universe we live in. We believe that each of us lived in His presence -- in spirit form, since we would not have a physical body until we were born (or at least conceived). At some point between conception and birth (the LDS Church has never made an official statement on the subject), the spirit enters into the body, giving it life. When the spirit leaves the body at some point later on, the body dies. The spirit continues to exist as a cognizant entity apart from the physical body. When Christ returns, the spirit re-enters the body it occupied during mortality (that body having been made perfect and incorruptible), giving it new life. From this point forward, the body -- although corporeal -- is destined to be immortal, meaning that the spirit will never again leave it. The difference between our belief and reincarnation is pretty significant, since the spirit never changes form in the slightest and is always uniquely the same individual, whether it's residing within the body or not. In summary, the stages of our exist are as follows:

1. Pre-mortal life (spirit only)
2. Mortal life (spirit resides in the physical body)
3. Post-mortal, pre-resurrection life (mortal body is dead; spirit exists in another realm)
4. Resurrected life (spirit re-enters the newly-perfected physical body and remains there eternally)

 

[waitasec]

No, if you actually READ THE QUOTE, it explains exactly why the differences exist!

So said "contradictions" are in fact no problem whatever because each religion was revealed for a specific Age and circumstance, which circumstances clearly CHANGE over time!

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

the problem with that is their prophesies never came to pass...just morphed into something else to reconcile the contradiction between reality and revelation.

 

[waitasec]

Oh, I see! No, we don't believe in re-incarnation. We believe that God created the spirits of all life prior to the time He created the universe we live in. We believe that each of us lived in His presence -- in spirit form, since we would not have a physical body until we were born (or at least conceived). At some point between conception and birth (the LDS Church has never made an official statement on the subject), the spirit enters into the body, giving it life. When the spirit leaves the body at some point later on, the body dies. The spirit continues to exist as a cognizant entity apart from the physical body. When Christ returns, the spirit re-enters the body it occupied during mortality (that body having been made perfect and incorruptible), giving it new life. From this point forward, the body -- although corporeal -- is destined to be immortal, meaning that the spirit will never again leave it. The difference between our belief and reincarnation is pretty significant, since the spirit never changes form in the slightest and is always uniquely the same individual, whether it's residing within the body or not.

thank you for explaining...

so when the spirit comes back into a body that no longer is physically the same as it was when the spirit left, does it automatically come together?
i mean if a body decomposes into the earth...the cycle of life happens and every tree or plant that used my body as food will become me?
do you know what i mean?

 

[Katzpur]

thank you for explaining...

so when the spirit comes back into a body that no longer is physically the same as it was when the spirit left, does it automatically come together?
i mean if a body decomposes into the earth...the cycle of life happens and every tree or plant that used my body as food will become me?
do you know what i mean?

Yes, I believe I understand the question. Since we LDS don't believe in an ex nihilo creation, but instead that God created everything in the universe from the matter that was co-eternal with Him, we believe he will restore us to our perfect form. It wouldn't matter if your body had become food for worms or had been cremated. The restored body would be essentially the same as it once was except that it would have no deformities, etc. It would be a perfect "you." Actually, this part of LDS doctrine is not all that different from that which is believed by any Christian who believes in a literal resurrection. It's only our belief in a pre-mortal spirit life that is significantly different.

 

[waitasec]

Yes, I believe I understand the question. Since we LDS don't believe in an ex nihilo creation, but instead that God created everything in the universe from the matter that was co-eternal with Him, we believe he will restore us to our perfect form. It wouldn't matter if your body had become food for worms or had been cremated. The restored body would be essentially the same as it once was except that it would have no deformities, etc. It would be a perfect "you." Actually, this part of LDS doctrine is not all that different from that which is believed by any Christian who believes in a literal resurrection. It's only our belief in a pre-mortal spirit life that is significantly different.

then why are our physical bodies so important?

if god is spirit and when we die we are a spirit, why do we need our physical bodies when christ returns since we will be in a spiritual state anyway...
do you believe in heaven?

 

[kylixguru]

then why are our physical bodies so important?

Our physical bodies are a necessary vehicle for experiencing life in physicality.

if god is spirit and when we die we are a spirit, why do we need our physical bodies when christ returns since we will be in a spiritual state anyway...

We return to the earth to take up new physical bodies (or if the timing is right we simply keep the ones we've got now) and we live in the flesh in an environment where we enjoy our lifetime in the company of pure in heart righteous people who live God's laws naturally and willingly.

do you believe in heaven?

How can you not believe in something you see every day?
The trouble people have is they don't know what it actually is.

 

[Katzpur]

then why are our physical bodies so important?

In the LDS scriptures (Pearl of Great Price), we're told, "For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy." We take that to mean that perfect joy can't be attained by a spirit that exists apart from the physical body. I realize that most Christians see the body as something the spirit yearns to be rid of. We see it in quite the opposite why. For me personally, I look forward to being able to be in the presence of my loved ones again after death, and to not just feel their presence but to be able to look into their eyes and give them all a big hug again. To me, anything less than that would not be complete happiness.

if god is spirit and when we die we are a spirit, why do we need our physical bodies when christ returns since we will be in a spiritual state anyway...

As is stated in the scripture I just posted, man is also spirit. A spirit is nothing more than a life force. The fact that we (and God) are spirit does not preclude that spirit residing within a physical body.

We will await the resurrection in spirit form, but the definition of the word "resurrect" is "to become alive again." It's the body that dies, not the spirit, so it would have to be the body that is resurrected, or given new life.

do you believe in heaven?

Absolutely. We believe in a literal Heaven.

 

[BruceDLimber]

the problem with that is their prophesies never came to pass....

So sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong!

I refer you to this site for the details:

Click on one of the following to navigate further down this page Religious Unity


Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

[W]hy are our physical bodies so important?

f god is spirit and when we die we are a spirit, why do we need our physical bodies when christ returns since we will be in a spiritual state anyway.

In order to fulfill our dual purpose here and now! Namely,

• As individuals, to acquire the spiritual virtues we'll need both here and in the Next Life, and
• In aggregate, to carry forward an ever-advancing civilization!

[D]o you believe in heaven?

Of course, as well as that it exists here and now as well as after death; and that you are in either Heaven or hell at every instant as a function of "where your head is at!"

Peace,

Bruce

 

[waitasec]

In the LDS scriptures (Pearl of Great Price), we're told, "For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy." We take that to mean that perfect joy can't be attained by a spirit that exists apart from the physical body. I realize that most Christians see the body as something the spirit yearns to be rid of. We see it in quite the opposite why. For me personally, I look forward to being able to be in the presence of my loved ones again after death, and to not just feel their presence but to be able to look into their eyes and give them all a big hug again. To me, anything less than that would not be complete happiness.

so your belief is what exactly, that everyone will be reunited...non believers and believers?

what does your belief say about god..is god a physical being and spiritual being?

As is stated in the scripture I just posted, man is also spirit. A spirit is nothing more than a life force. The fact that we (and God) are spirit does not preclude that spirit residing within a physical body.

We will await the resurrection in spirit form, but the definition of the word "resurrect" is "to become alive again." It's the body that dies, not the spirit, so it would have to be the body that is resurrected, or given new life.

what does your doctrine say about those people jesus resurrected? did they die again?