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Couldn't have said it better myself...

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
From the Catholic Catechism:
None of those suggest that heaven is a reward for being good.

Contrast with the descriptors for the heaven bound: repentant, blessed, forgiven, "good."
You can't just add that last one in there because you'd like it to be so. None of the descriptors repentant, blessed, or forgiven even imply goodness. Only repentant even has a connotation that reflects positively on the personal qualities of the one being described, but that still begs the question of what is being repented. The answer is largely that we too are bad and need to ask for forgiveness for the evil we have performed and/or caused.

Simply, that we are repentant of our nature necessarily defeats the proposition that we are good.

But it does follow that if a person loves god only to escape suffering, then they love god only to escape punishment.
Your answer to the non sequitur is a tautology that still doesn't get you to your claim? I'd go a step further and say that this is incompatible with love, so no they don't love God to escape punishment, because they don't love God in any meaningful sense of the word.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
So Jesus is sent by God to turn the Jews from the wrong path they were on and they kill Him and you think that this is immoral. Who was immoral in your opinion?
If God then accepts this murder as a sacrifice for humanity's sin by Jesus, who is then being immoral?
Your question is entirely unanswerable, for all of the following reasons:

Jesus is sent by God?

Think about this for a moment -- did God "send" Adam? Or did God just create him? Has God lost that power (oops, you only get to use it once, sorry! :shrug:) Oh, no, this time God has to impregnate a virgin, who certainly didn't have sex with her own husband (makes you wonder why Joseph stuck around, eh?), and then wait 30 years for the kid to grow up and then teach the infallibly right path -- which none of the Jews can accept and which Saul/Paul then takes to the gentiles and gets them to accept -- even though the message wasn't for them? That seems like a really big "miss" for an omnipotent God!

For the purpose of turning Jews from the wrong path?

But it didn't work -- the Jews didn't turn, so Paul went to the gentiles instead -- who were already used to lots of gods so what's one more, eh? Does God routinely screw things up this badly?

That the Jews killed him (not Pontias Pilate in the name of Rome)?

It is not true, as John's Gospel suggests, that the Jews weren't allowed to put their own criminals to death -- that's rubbish. Of course they could! And Rome was quite delighted when they did, because it served their own purposes. Aside from which, and this is incredibly important, if God's purpose was Christ's death as substitutionary atonement, then it cannot have been wrong for the Jews to kill him -- nor for the Romans, either! That killing was, after all, (according to the story) the entire purpose! I suspect this is the very reason that Gospels have Pilate pronouncing the death sentence -- because if the Jews had done it, they would have been doing God's will, and the gentile world now accepting Christianity surely couldn't accept that.

God accepts Jesus's death as "sacrifice for humanity's sin?"

Then how is it possible that there is any more sin by humanity?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Your question is entirely unanswerable, for all of the following reasons:

Jesus is sent by God?

Think about this for a moment -- did God "send" Adam? Or did God just create him? Has God lost that power (oops, you only get to use it once, sorry! :shrug:) Oh, no, this time God has to impregnate a virgin, who certainly didn't have sex with her own husband (makes you wonder why Joseph stuck around, eh?), and then wait 30 years for the kid to grow up and then teach the infallibly right path -- which none of the Jews can accept and which Saul/Paul then takes to the gentiles and gets them to accept -- even though the message wasn't for them? That seems like a really big "miss" for an omnipotent God!

For the purpose of turning Jews from the wrong path?

But it didn't work -- the Jews didn't turn, so Paul went to the gentiles instead -- who were already used to lots of gods so what's one more, eh? Does God routinely screw things up this badly?

That the Jews killed him (not Pontias Pilate in the name of Rome)?

It is not true, as John's Gospel suggests, that the Jews weren't allowed to put their own criminals to death -- that's rubbish. Of course they could! And Rome was quite delighted when they did, because it served their own purposes. Aside from which, and this is incredibly important, if God's purpose was Christ's death as substitutionary atonement, then it cannot have been wrong for the Jews to kill him -- nor for the Romans, either! That killing was, after all, (according to the story) the entire purpose! I suspect this is the very reason that Gospels have Pilate pronouncing the death sentence -- because if the Jews had done it, they would have been doing God's will, and the gentile world now accepting Christianity surely couldn't accept that.

God accepts Jesus's death as "sacrifice for humanity's sin?"

Then how is it possible that there is any more sin by humanity?

After saying that my question was unanswerable, you ended up giving an answer that said that humans weren't responsible for the murder of Jesus but God is responsible for it.
I suppose part of your misunderstanding comes from seeing God's foreknowledge of evil in the world as equivalent to God being responsible for all evil. So if God makes beings with free will and they decide to use it to do the wrong things, that is not their fault, it is the fault of God who made them and gave them free will while knowing they would misuse that free will.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Right, so why were the leaders of the early Jerusalem church not aware of this "new covenant"?
After all, Peter and James were disciples.

Why do you say that Peter and James were unaware? Do you think that if they said nothing about it specifically in the few little pieces of writing we have from them, that they were unaware of what the gospel was.
Oops, Peter and James did not mention the virgin birth, they must have been unaware of it.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Why do you say that Peter and James were unaware? Do you think that if they said nothing about it specifically in the few little pieces of writing we have from them, that they were unaware of what the gospel was.
Oops, Peter and James did not mention the virgin birth, they must have been unaware of it.
No, no. :)
I was referring to the council of Jerusalem .. it wouldn't have been necessary if this "new covenant" had been in operation from the outset.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
No, no. :)
I was referring to the council of Jerusalem .. it wouldn't have been necessary if this "new covenant" had been in operation from the outset.

If you look at the OT and the places where the New Covenant is mentioned it says that God will put the law/torah/word of God in the hearts of those in the New Covenant and also says that those in the New Covenant will receive God's Spirit and have their hearts softened. (eg Ezek 36:26, Jer 31:33)
If you ask a Jew these days what that means he/she might tell you that it means that we will all know the Mosaic Law without being taught it.
So that part of the New Covenant had to be sorted out, especially for Gentiles. That would be one of the things that Jesus said to His disciples that they would not be able to bear at that time but that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
None of those suggest that heaven is a reward for being good.


You can't just add that last one in there because you'd like it to be so. None of the descriptors repentant, blessed, or forgiven even imply goodness. Only repentant even has a connotation that reflects positively on the personal qualities of the one being described, but that still begs the question of what is being repented. The answer is largely that we too are bad and need to ask for forgiveness for the evil we have performed and/or caused.

Simply, that we are repentant of our nature necessarily defeats the proposition that we are good.

"Good" refers to right or correct action, no? If someone is "good" they are behaving in a way that is considered acceptable by those that are judging. Being "repentant" is "good" because it shows remorse over one's deeds. It is a behavior that leads to heaven, which is preferable to hell.

Your answer to the non sequitur is a tautology that still doesn't get you to your claim? I'd go a step further and say that this is incompatible with love, so no they don't love God to escape punishment, because they don't love God in any meaningful sense of the word.

There is a difference between "It does not follow, from the suffering of hell being the absence of God, that you love God only to avoid some punishment" and "if a person loves god only to escape suffering, then they love god only to escape punishment." In the former, all those who love god are doing so to escape suffering and in the latter, it is being stated that those who choose to love god specifically to escape hell are doing so to avoid punishment.

I agree, in that case it is not really love, and that is the double bind of Christianity. You must love god with all your heart and soul, but you cannot be made to do so. Yet the threat of hell compels this.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I wouldn't say so.
A person can be C of E, or Catholic or JW etc.
Creed is more about the Bible's interpretation.

The truth of the gospel is about the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Satan tries to convince people that the gospel is not true. He has many ways of doing that.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
If you look at the OT and the places where the New Covenant is mentioned it says that God will put the law/torah/word of God in the hearts of those in the New Covenant
It does not specifically mention Jesus..

So that part of the New Covenant had to be sorted out, especially for Gentiles. That would be one of the things that Jesus said to His disciples that they would not be able to bear at that time..
A new covenant is such an important thing, to be left so vague.
It relies too much on the infallibility of men.
Prophets of old did not leave such room for doubt.
eg. the ten commandments
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
The truth of the gospel is about the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Satan tries to convince people that the gospel is not true. He has many ways of doing that.
I think you mean the whole of the NT.

Christianity relies on the accuracy of historical texts, that were chosen to be included in the Bible canon. It reflects the beliefs of a particular group of people.
It is not claimed to be a Divine revelation, but it assumes that the NT authors were correct in their beliefs. That they were "Divinely inspired".
Jesus was definitely Divinely inspired, imo.
The NT authors were not prophets or even disciples .. however pious and well-meaning they were, there is room for doubt.

Unfortunately, not much information about the early Christians survives, due to the siege of Jerusalem.
What we do know, is that it started off with a group of Jewish Christians, and ended up as a gentile church, that was manipulated by Roman Emperors.

satan is always active. he exploits our weaknesses. he corrupts.
..but God's plan cannot be thwarted. God is Greater.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That's part of the teachings of Jesus but not all of what He was sent by God to do, allow Himself to be murdered for the sins of humanity.

That is your faith. Not mine. We have been here before. You are not wrong or other of those words. We are just different in how we have faith in God.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
It does not specifically mention Jesus..

No, but it has things there that apply to what Jesus did and the redeemer is mentioned.

A new covenant is such an important thing, to be left so vague.
It relies too much on the infallibility of men.
Prophets of old did not leave such room for doubt.
eg. the ten commandments

The New Covenant of grace and of the Spirit is more vague I guess in the prophecies of it. But then again I think any prophecies of the Covenant of Moses were pretty vague. When the Covenant came it was no doubt more concrete. Actually I don't think that what Moses would do is called a Covenant in prophecy before it came.

Forgiveness is taught about the New Covenant. Putting His Spirit in us and changing us so that we want to obey the law and are able to.
Knowing God is part of it.
Salvation is promised for Israel and for the Gentiles through the Messiah and that is the forgiveness and redemption and newness of life in the New Covenant.

Jer 31:31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
33 This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

declares the Lord.
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”


Ezek 36:24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will save you from all your uncleanness.

Jer 23:5 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The Lord Our Righteous Savior.


Isa 59:20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”

declares the Lord.
21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.

Isa 49:6 he says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”
 
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