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Creationists, please provide evidence

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
:D



I never said there was a hypothesis. But really, I don't know why anyone would bother making a different hypothesis when the Theory of Evolution is already supported so thoroughly.

Well the Magic Poofing Hypothesis is quite popular among lay people, so deserves discussion if only to provide an opportunity for refutation.
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
So, in this statement:



One is claiming that evidence will make something believable, correct? And, if one sets standards on said 'evidence', one is also claiming that those standards are at the very least an efficient, and accurate method to determine something (be it physical properties, outcomes of interactions and so on).

So really, what you are saying is: You've given me what you think is 'evidence'. I've looked at it, and I've looked at other methods of evaluating your evidence, and have found that your 'evidence' is not sufficient for me. Please provide more sufficient evidence, preferably evidence that is similar to such and such.'

Make sense?

Not really. Because I haven't ever been presented with evidence. I've been presented with assertions, or arguments from ignorance. None of which is evidence.
 

Subby

Active Member
No, I think we finally got the initial outline of a hypothesis 20 or 30 pages ago. God magically poofed two of each kind into existence all over the world a really long time ago, then gathered them onto a boat around 6000 years ago, IIRC. It's been so long.

Damn you still pulling the same tired crap. Get some new arguments, and grow up.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
No, I think we finally got the initial outline of a hypothesis 20 or 30 pages ago. God magically poofed two of each kind into existence all over the world a really long time ago, then gathered them onto a boat around 6000 years ago, IIRC. It's been so long.

Damn you still pulling the same tired crap. Get some new arguments, and grow up.
Hey, great response there Subby!! You sure proved you argument there!!:facepalm:
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
We don't either, but this tread was an attempt to let the Creationists have their say and provide positive evidence for their view instead of just trying (and failing) to bash Evolution all the time. Alas, it seems this was not to be. ;)

Instead of asking them to provide evidence that Creationism is true, maybe ask the theist why Creationism must be true in order for God to exist. Personally, I don't think anything in the bible has to be true for God to exist but that's just me.
I don't know why theist spend so much time and energy (wasted time and energy) trying to disprove what science has already proven. I mean, it was a lot easier in Galileo's time, when science was just getting started, but now science knows all the stops and covers its bases with airtight seals. It's like trying to break into Fort Knox with a toothpick.
 
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The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
Instead of asking them to provide evidence that Creationism is true, maybe ask the theist why Creationism must be true in order for God is exist. Personally, I don't think anything in the bible has to be true for God to exist but that's just me.

Ahhhh the battle whine of the theist.

"Why do you always ask for evidence?"

I'll tell you why

BECAUSE WITHOUT EVIDENCE YOU CAN'T BE SURE IT'S NOT JUST IMAGINATION, FANTASY AND WISHFUL THINKING.

The only reason you are whining about it is because you don't have any.

-Q
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
How about... because people are trying to get Creationism taught as science and science is based on evidence?

But I do agree that asking why their god requires a literal Genesis is a valuable question. :cool:

wa:do
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
Ahhhh the battle whine of the theist.

"Why do you always ask for evidence?"

I'll tell you why

BECAUSE WITHOUT EVIDENCE YOU CAN'T BE SURE IT'S NOT JUST IMAGINATION, FANTASY AND WISHFUL THINKING.

The only reason you are whining about it is because you don't have any.

-Q

When did I ever say there was any evidence for Creationism? In fact, I said evolution has all the evidence. Creationism is just a vain attempt to make God fit into a world where God doesn't need to be. I want to know why Creationism=God.

On a side note...are you trying to start an argument with me, Quaxotic? Because both of your posts in response to mine have been rather confrontational. The all caps letters aren't exactly necessary.
 

strikeviperMKII

Well-Known Member
What exactly is "positive" evidence? An do you have "positive" evidence for evolution?

Evolution is a hypothesis. Positive evidence is data that supports that hypothesis. And yes, there is a great deal of data that supports evolution. And, by the last count, zero data that supports creationism (or ID).
 

The_Evelyonian

Old-School Member
When did I ever say there was any evidence for Creationism? In fact, I said evolution has all the evidence. Creationism is just a vain attempt to make God fit into a world where God doesn't need to be. I want to know why Creationism=God.

Because some people are unable to separate the Bible from God. They feel that, if the Bible is in error, then God does not exist. Therefore, to them, there is no possible way that the Bible can be in error. The book effectively becomes their god.

Many people with this mindset read Genesis as a literal creation event. It happened, exactly the way the Bible recounts, some 6000-10,000 years ago. Any and all evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed because, again, the Bible says this and the Bible cannot be wrong.
 
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jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
What exactly is "positive" evidence? An do you have "positive" evidence of evolution?

Scientific evidence refers to evidence which serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis. Such evidence is generally expected to be empirical and properly documented in accordance with scientific method such as is applicable to the particular field of inquiry.
(Source: Scientific evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Positive evidence would be supporting evidence towards a hypothesis and serves to strengthen its validity. Negative evidence would be evidence that goes counter to said hypothesis and would serve to weaken or even disprove it.

There is tons of positive evidence in favour of Evolution and no negative evidence against it. Likewise there is no evidence in favour of Creationism and a lot of evidence against it.

In addition it should be noted that that the textbook definition of evolution, the change in allele frequencies over time, is also an observable fact.
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
When did I ever say there was any evidence for Creationism? In fact, I said evolution has all the evidence. Creationism is just a vain attempt to make God fit into a world where God doesn't need to be. I want to know why Creationism=God.

Sorry my bad. I should have read all your posts before responding.

On a side note...are you trying to start an argument with me, Quaxotic? Because both of your posts in response to mine have been rather confrontational. The all caps letters aren't exactly necessary.

No im not. The capitals are an expression of exasperation. I am still absolutely dumbfounded when theists start whining when people start asking for proof of the things they are saying.

Once again sorry i misinterpreted your posts.

-Q
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
I don't know how you guys have the patience to argue about this over and over again. If someone refuses to accept something that the sky is blue there's not much you can do to help them, and it's pointless to try.
 

Created_Madness

New Member
Ok! I am neither an evolutionists nor a creationist. I am fairly new to examining both arguements an from what I have gathered there seems to be no "positive" evidence for either. Can someone please direct me to a site or other ways of coming to a decision on these matters?
 
:facepalm:

I am an Atheist. I don't go with a literal reading of any holy scripture. I used the 6000 year line because I hear it so often, no other reason.
If you gave me an apple I would assume the apple came from a tree, as apples do. If you said that the apple was created, I'd ask you to prove it.
Well, at least there's that.
For the purposes of this debate, I am taking a neutral stance. I am not claiming that everything is created. Nor am I claiming that nothing is created.
I am making no claim of my own.
The only one on the table is yours.
"Everything is created."
Prove it.
You started with the assumption that everything is created and then reached the conclusion that if everything is created there must be a creator. That is a circular argument. At no one point in your argument did you attempt to prove any of it. You simply stated it as fact and went from there.
How did you reach that conclusion?
Two questions:
What makes you think anything was created in the first place?
When you see something, how do you tell if that something is created or not? (I.E. What intrinsic difference does a created thing have from an uncreated thing?)
You provide evidence to back the assertion.

All matter cannot be created nor destroyed, therefore all matter was not created. Living systems work the same way - they were not "created", they were formed through natural processes and replicate without inherent design. And yes, forces are things.
I've already named several things which our current understanding dictates are not created.
Because the burden of proof is on you. Before you tell us to explain why you are wrong, you must first demonstrate some kind of evidence that you are correct. If you cannot, then there is nothing to disprove.
But, in all likelihood, you would not do that. Therefore you could not prove that my cat does not have wings. In much the same way, you're making the claim that everything is created. Somebody could easily prove this assertion false, but you are not in a position open to the possibility of accepting that information.
This is nothing more than an assumption. I've already asked you to demonstrate that everything was created. Can you do that or not?
No, you haven't. Now, demonstrate that everything was created.
Because there are things that are not inherently "created". Things can, have and do form through natural non-intelligent means without inherent design. Therefore, we can conclude that you are wrong.
What's more, you are wrong since your entire rationale is based on a logical fallacy - it's a circular argument without any rational basis, therefore we can conclude that your argument is not worth disputing since it has no merit.

Seems to me that all you have are claims with no backing. You seem to completely misunderstand, wilfully or not, basic principles of presenting an argument, and when I, and several other posters, have asked you to present your arguments and your hypothesis, dodging the question in this and similar manners is your "way out".
Now, I can't find your hypothesis anywhere, so unless you repost it here, I will be forced to assume that you have none, just like all the other creationists who have replied in this tread.

It is strange to me that you cannot understand that all things are created. Which as I am sure you have found in your research is undisputed. Nobody denies that a child is created by its parents, that an apple is created by a tree, that gravity is created by the mass of an object. Without this as a basis of fact no science could even begin to operate. What science clearly demonstrates is that every thing is created by some thing else. That there is a scientific explanation for how all things came to be. A small rock is often formed by the motion of the tide rolling a larger rock. The motion of the tide is often created by the moon's gravity pulling the waters here and there. The gravity of the moon is created by the mass of the moon. The current mass of the moon was created after having smashed into the earth and reformed in orbit and taking a multitude of asteroid, meteor, and comet strikes. (I always forget which combination of those applies to what hits the moon)

Why is it so difficult to accept the premise that all things are created? And how do you not see with your own eyes that every thing you have ever known was created by some other thing. Perhaps it is the word created that you have a personal hang up with. Created is just the best way to describe how things come into existence but if you prefer another word, its fine with me. Here are a bunch of synonyms for created, maybe you would like to use one of them instead:

actualize, author, beget, bring into being, bring into existence, bring to pass, build, cause to be, coin, compose, conceive, concoct, constitute, construct, contrive, design, devise, discover, dream up, effect, erect, establish, fabricate, fashion, father, forge, form, formulate, found, generate, give birth to, give life to, hatch, imagine, initiate, institute, invent, invest, make, occasion, organize, originate, parent, perform, plan, procreate, produce, rear, set up, shape, sire, spawn, start

Once you have picked one that you like can we move on past the basic idea that "every thing was <insert your favorite synonyms>"?
 
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