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Critical Thinkers vs God

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The vast majority of religious people merely follow the belief of their parents and community. The numbers that convert to a different religion after childhood are statistically irrelevant.
You're only using the word statistically to make your opinion sound science-ish. Maybe you'd like to think that religion is merely a product of parenting, so you prefer that outcome to the point of believing its what will be found out in the Science ... once the research is more complete. :)

I on the other hand have a tendency to defend religion. Why? Its because people are fragile. Its been my experience that people (not talking about anyone in particular) but people who are skilled in critical thinking have left society to some degree. I think they are hurt in some way, and this pain frees them to think more critically. On RF that hurt is often religious in nature, but its not only religious hurt that frees the soul. But I don't have science-ish studies to tell you about this. Not right now, and I'm sticking to the topic. I do tend to defend religion. I tend to believe it has an important place in the human story and one which is not over.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
In my worldview, and many other theologians and scholars that I know of, logic and reason is the key function that leads to God.

Would you like to provide an example of logic and reason that leads to some god (and which one) because, in all my time debating this, and in all my own reading on the subject, I have never once seen a sound logical, reasoned argument that led to any god?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Would you like to provide an example of logic and reason that leads to some god (and which one) because, in all my time debating this, and in all my own reading on the subject, I have never once seen a sound logical, reasoned argument that led to any god?

When you have already decided your next argument with the typical "which one" apologetic of evangelical atheists, I dont think you are planning to engage but dismiss by hook or crook. So, I think I will spend time drinking tea instead.

Cheers.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
When you have already decided your next argument with the typical "which one" apologetic of evangelical atheists, I dont think you are planning to engage but dismiss by hook or crook. So, I think I will spend time drinking tea instead.

Cheers.
You resign now (the Queen's Gambit).

Ciao

- viole
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
When you have already decided your next argument with the typical "which one" apologetic of evangelical atheists...

Are you trying to claim that there aren't thousands of gods that humans do or have believed in? If there was only one, that would actually make theism somewhat less unbelievable. Why don't you think it a valid point?
...I dont think you are planning to engage but dismiss by hook or crook. So, I think I will spend time drinking tea instead.

Actually it would be fascinating to (at last!) find an argument that isn't obviously flawed. Even if it took some reasonable mental effort to find a flaw it would be progress on what I've ever found before. However, as I suspected, you don't have anything to offer.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Theist means one who believes there is a divine. if that is meaningless, its good for your personal life, but it has a meaning.
Well, at least one.

You mean like atheists like you. With ingrained, dogmatic, religious beliefs. Same, same. ;)
At least we all agree on the primary and only quality of God. Her not existence.
Can you do the same?

Ciao

- viole
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Are you trying to claim that there aren't thousands of gods that humans do or have believed in? If there was only one, that would actually make theism somewhat less unbelievable. Why don't you think it a valid point?

So your point is that every one has to prove every single deity believed by every one around the world? Lol. Very rational, critical and educated of you. Like out of this world.

Actually it would be fascinating to (at last!) find an argument that isn't obviously flawed.

Your arguments and premises are obviously flawed and kind of childish. So I expect you to make commentary, that's all. Its entertaining.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Boyle-Folly-of-Atheism-1692-title-page-Cropped.jpg
The results might help explain why scientists are among the least religious. According to a 2009 Pew poll, only about half of scientists believe in God or a higher deity, compared to more than 80 percent of the general public.
"The results don't speak directly to it, but it could explain why people who receive extensive training in fields that require deep analytic thinking might tend to be among the least religious," he says.
Although critical analysis of life's origins might be one thing that convinces atheists to lack faith in God, Gervais says there are many other reasons that need to be explored.
https://www.usnews.com/news/article...itical-thinkers-less-likely-to-believe-in-god


Can critical thinking and belief in God coexist?

Characteristics-Critical-Thinking.png
Yes.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
So your point is that every one has to prove every single deity believed by every one around the world?

Whatever gave you that idea? You really should try to read things a bit more carefully. My question (which you actually pointed out yourself) was which one. If there is a logical argument for 'god', then it obviously can't be for all of them, so it would have to be for one of them (or at least a fairly limited subset).

In my experience, even if we were to ignore the problems with some of the arguments, then they still don't argue for a god, let alone a specific one. In other words, even ignoring the fallacies, they would be arguments for something but not necessarily a god.
Your arguments and premises are obviously flawed and kind of childish.

Since I haven't been presenting an argument, this cannot possibly be true. :rolleyes:
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I feel that critical/analytical thinking has taking over my worldview such that even if I had a strong desire to believe in God, I couldn't

Agree, and that's why I say that critical thought cannot lead to a sound conclusion that gods exist or do not. Any argument offered to date that concludes, "therefore God" has been found to be unsound, that is, contains some fallacy that makes its God conclusion a non sequitur - it does not follow from what came before.

Either one's reasoning is valid and supports his conclusion, or one has come to a belief without valid reasoning - my definition of faith-based thought (and seemingly yours as well). We can only hold two kinds of ideas about what is true - those derived rigorously and critically, and those arrived at and believed by other means (faith).

You probably already know that Newton made a faith-based comment about the solar system when he ran out of mathematics. His mathematics, later updated by Laplace to remedy its shortfall, suggested that the solar system ought to be unstable, and that before too long, large planets like Jupiter and Saturn would dislodge earth and other planets from their orbits and send them into the sun or out of the solar system. Since that hadn't happened, Newton realized that something was missing from his celestial model, and so he inserted his God to manually correct these perturbations and keep the solar system intact. Everything before that point was arrived at critically, using ideas that an equally talented atheist might have come up with, and is still considered useful science today. But then Isaac took the leap of faith and went off the rails with a faith-based conclusion. Two kinds of thinking there - critical followed by faith-based. These appear to be the only two ways to come to beliefs.

The skilled scientist who is also a theist has learned to compartmentalize his faith, which Newton did for awhile until his reason could take him no further.

So when theists object to an opinion like mine - no, one cannot arrive at a god conclusion with valid reasoning alone, therefore such a belief is not arrived at critically - I think they hear that all of their thinking is being criticized, as if the two could not be separated (compartmentalized). Of course such people can be fine and prescient thinkers, but only if they have learned to keep faith out of their professional work.

A little tangential, but I thought I'd quote Sam Harris about theist and NIH director Francis Collins because the issue of compartmentalization comes up:

BillMaher: To the person who says "So what. [Francis Collins] obviously is a scientist who can work in the lab and do scientific work and separate that from his beliefs about the space-god carpenter."

Sam Harris: But you can't actually separate these things. Because if you believe, for instance, as he does, that morality could not possibly have emerged out of evolution - that it can't really have its basis in the brain - but rather had to be inserted by the hand of god at some point when we diverged from apes - he's written this, he believes this - then, as someone funding neuroscience research, there's no reason to look for morality in biology. Nobody's going to fund a study that would explain its emergence out of the brain, which most serious scientists who study morality attempt to do. Your beliefs can't be kept separate. We have one sphere of reality we try to represent in our thoughts.​

Harris is wondering if compartmentalization is really possible. I think it is, but it's an interesting consideration of critical thought mixing with faith-based thought and how the latter can corrupt the former.

And we saw what became of the intelligent design program, in which an assortment of presumably well-trained mathematicians and scientists allowed their faith that there was a God out there direct their research, which was unable to support their faith-based belief that our world was intelligently designed.

You think you have all the answers until I question everything you thought you knew.

Actually, most of us don't think we have all the answers, but in my case, I think I have most of the important answers that are possible and useful to have, that answers that will follow will come from the proper evaluation of evidence and not from some guru or adviser, and so I don't look to anybody else for more answers. For example, whereas I don't claim to have the answer for how life first appeared on earth - abiogenesis on earth, abiogenesis elsewhere and panspermia, or intelligent design - but I also know that I will likely never have that answer, and that nobody on this planet can answer it either. Just pointing out that somebody doesn't have all the answers does not mean that one does himself, or even that he has anything to add.

I think I've had some useful new insights about American culture and the American ethos in the last two years, but they came from the evaluation of the comments of Americans here and on other social media and news sources, not from teachers or textbooks.

Can critical thinking and "disbelief" in "God" coexist?

If by disbelief you mean the explicit assertion that gods do not or cannot exist as in what is called strong atheism, then no, that is a faith-based belief, and any critical thinking that came before that leap of faith has now been contaminated with a non sequitur as occurred with Newton above.

how do you define "critical thinking"

Critical thinking is a specified manner of thinking in which evidence and propositions are evaluated dispassionately and rigorously according to the rules of fallacy-free logic. Evidence is evaluated to determine the sound conclusions that can be derived from its proper interpretation, with a willingness to go to where the evidence leads without preconception or resistance. Propositions and arguments are evaluated open-mindedly, meaning with the ability to recognize a sound argument and a willingness to be convinced by it if it is compelling. It combines skepticism, empiricism, and reasoning to arrive at useful propositions about the world, useful meaning ideas that accurately allow one to predict outcomes.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Meh. I already responded to the OP by stating that it seems pretty absurd to suggest 50% of scientists are theists, and also suggest this means theists lack critical thinking skills.
I must admit I jumped into this thread, and did not read all other replies. And I found it also a strange suggestion.
Nice to see that it's exactly 50 - 50 though:)

I merely reiterated that to you in reverse. It appears to me pretty damn obvious that both theists and atheists can have critical thinking skills. And that atheists and theists can LACK critical thinking skills, depending on the individual.

I'm not a fan of tribalism.
I got that impression of you, and I appreciate that and agree with all you said

In any case, if your point was that theists can be critical thinkers, I have no reason to disagree.
:cool::cool::cool:
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
If by disbelief you mean the explicit assertion that gods do not or cannot exist as in what is called strong atheism, then no, that is a faith-based belief, and any critical thinking that came before that leap of faith has now been contaminated with a non sequitur as occurred with Newton above.

Critical thinking is a specified manner of thinking in which evidence and propositions are evaluated dispassionately and rigorously according to the rules of fallacy-free logic. Evidence is evaluated to determine the sound conclusions that can be derived from its proper interpretation, with a willingness to go to where the evidence leads without preconception or resistance. Propositions and arguments are evaluated open-mindedly, meaning with the ability to recognize a sound argument and a willingness to be convinced by it if it is compelling. It combines skepticism, empiricism, and reasoning to arrive at useful propositions about the world, useful meaning ideas that accurately allow one to predict outcomes.
Thank you very much for answering my questions, and I really like and appreciate the answers. Very clear and very honest, hence very useful
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
What arguments?

Anything but actually come up with any examples of what you meant when you said "In my worldview, and many other theologians and scholars that I know of, logic and reason is the key function that leads to God." (#81), eh?

I meant the usual ones like, for example, first cause. Your turn to come up with an example of what you meant...
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Agree, and that's why I say that critical thought cannot lead to a sound conclusion that gods exist or do not.
I agree with this. First I thought "wow, that's a lengthy reply", but starting to read it, I enjoyed your writing, free from any belittling others, just giving your views ... I really enjoyed that, and I appreciate that you write in such a respectful way.

Actually, most of us don't think we have all the answers, but in my case, I think I have most of the important answers that are possible and useful to have
True for me too.

that answers that will follow will come from the proper evaluation of evidence and not from some guru or adviser
I love answers from my Guru, because I trust Him. But that said, whenever He gives me answers I triple check those, remembering His advices:
a) Accept even the answers of a fool IF they are the truth
b) Reject even the answers of God Himself IF they are false

so I don't look to anybody else for more answers.
I still have some challenges in life (related to health), I try to figure out, but if I die today, I am fine not having found those answers. The important answers I have, though being curious, I would welcome answers to "some unknown existential questions", but I don't ask others for it

For example, whereas I don't claim to have the answer for how life first appeared on earth - abiogenesis on earth, abiogenesis elsewhere and panspermia, or intelligent design - but I also know that I will likely never have that answer
I came to a point realizing and accepting that some questions won't be answered anytime soon, and others never, and I have my peace with it

and that nobody on this planet can answer it either.
I am not sure about that, but if they are there "they don't shout it from the roof"

I think I've had some useful new insights about American culture and the American ethos in the last two years, but they came from the evaluation of the comments of Americans here and on other social media and news sources, not from teachers or textbooks.
I got plenty of new and useful insights from my Teachers, but it's true that the ones I met never delved deep into American culture. And for me it's also important to evaluate the information I get (not believe blind), before I can say that their insights have become my insights.

Thanks again, and a lot, for your nice post
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Anything but actually come up with any examples of what you meant when you said "In my worldview, and many other theologians and scholars that I know of, logic and reason is the key function that leads to God." (#81), eh?

I meant the usual ones like, for example, first cause. Your turn to come up with an example of what you meant...

Nah. Maybe with a critical thinker.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Can critical thinking and belief in God coexist?
Interesting topic ... thank you for sharing this

Was interesting to read the link you gave:
The first thing that came to mind was the advice once given "tell me your company, I tell you who you are". It made me more aware of its impact

And this topic is very important for me now also, in our "New Normal World" that is being established. Lots of brainwashing is going on, and it's not easy to stay unbiased with all the fake news, and ever changing facts

Back to the topic

IMO:
Critical thinking is a good thing
Belief in God is also a good thing
Not belief in God is also a good thing

They can coexist it seems to me
And figuring out what I really believe is an interesting road in life, I really enjoy

I do not believe that "Critical thinking" alone will be enough to "know if God exists"
But it is useful to determine "what God is not" ... I love the path of "neti neti"
Hence I love "Critical thinking", and I have used lots of it on my paths
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
:cool::cool::cool:

I like your answers, thank you:)

So, if someone found the 'truth' they were looking for, that would mean there is no more need for "questioning what this 'truth' is", right? So, also no more need for critical thinking (using your definition) for that 'truth'?

Do you believe (or know) whether or not "critical thinking" is useful and/or sufficient to find the 'truth' (about God and/or other existential questions)?

Or that "it" is the way, or the only way, to find the 'truth'?

Do you only use "critical thinking" or do you have also other 'ways' to (try to) find the 'truth'?

Why do you believe "critical thinking" is needed to find the 'truth'? You read this, or someone you trust, told you, or it's just what you believe?

Do you know someone who found the 'truth' by using "critical thinking"?

Note: with 'truth' (above) I mean not the simple truths like 1+1 etc.

Well, here is my issue. There have been many times in the past I thought I have discovered/realized some profound truth. Only to find later that what I thought was the truth was flawed. Seems easier to discredit claims of truth than identify with any certainty what truth is, Such that I've come to doubt "truth" exists or if it does, humans can know what it is. We can kind of determine what is true but even that has temporal constraints.

Even that, that humans are unable to know the truth, is a truth that needs to be questioned. It seems our path to the truth, whatever it is, is by discovery of what is not true.
 
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