Criticism of Islam.

[Link]

No, YOU tell me why it has become an official religion.
YOU tell me why they believe this.
YOU tell me why followers of a religion would allow outsiders to cherry pick for them what they should believe.
YOU tell me why those writings even existed in the first place

That was my point and you are dodging it like a professional dodgeball player.

The beliefs are the beliefs. They don't have to believe it. They have access to the same information as you. They can read the same quran. And they do.



Because radicals already in jail are converting them.

The money trail goes back to the Western governments and secret services.

This is the point I'm making. Same with ISIS.

 

[firedragon]

You can define however you want and I will carry the label. I don't mind.

No see. Bigotry is defined already by the creators of the language. I am not making any definitions of my own. None.

Have a good day.

 

[Link]

No see. Bigotry is defined already by the creators of the language. I am not making any definitions of my own. None.

Have a good day.

Language is fluid. There is no Creators of language. Study linguistics. And semantics and definitions are half the battle.

 

[firedragon]

Language is fluid. There is no Creators of language. Study linguistics. And semantics and definitions are half the battle.

Alright man. Cheers.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Haha. really?

Can you tell me the most traditional, the oldest school of thought, the school Medina, what did they say about this matter?

Again, you are pestering me for irrelevant details. I do not need to know the information on this level to be informed of the generality.

 

[firedragon]

Again, you are pestering me for irrelevant details. I do not need to know the information on this level to be informed of the generality.

No its very important because you said that in modern times people have different views on this hadith but generally they accepted it. Which means in history they generally did. So I am asking you about the oldest school of Islamic thought.

All you have to say is that "I dont know. So do tell". that's it. I also asked because you said "You had studied Islam in the university" etc etc.

Let me tell you. It is called the golden chain. The school of Medina never reported this. So that's the oldest tradition. A lot of things to consider.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No its very important because you said that in modern times people have different views on this hadith but generally they accepted it. Which means in history they generally did. So I am asking you about the oldest school of Islamic thought.

All you have to say is that "I dont know. So do tell". that's it. I also asked because you said "You had studied Islam in the university" etc etc.

Let me tell you. It is called the golden chain. The school of Medina never reported this. So that's the oldest tradition. A lot of things to consider.

And I told you the extent of my study in detail. It doesn't make me an expert. Far, far from it. I do, however, know the basics. Just as I know that this hadith is generally accept by most (though not all) Muslims.

 

[firedragon]

And I told you the extent of my study in detail. It doesn't make me an expert. Far, far from it. I do, however, know the basics. Just as I know that this hadith is generally accept by most (though not all) Muslims.

As I said already, you are wrong. You are making a general comment which is unacceptable to all Muslims. I mean it. All. No Muslim just accepts ahadith like you say. I told you this already, and explained it. But you dont intend to understand something. You dont have to be an expert in everything, but a bit of humility would do.

Anyway, so your standard is that you accept all ahadith as 100% truth is it? I mean you, not Muslims, not aliens, just you.

Do you accept all ahadith as true?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

As I said already, you are wrong. You are making a general comment which is unacceptable to all Muslims. I mean it. All. No Muslim just accepts ahadith like you say. I told you this already, and explained it. But you dont intend to understand something. You dont have to be an expert in everything, but a bit of humility would do.

Anyway, so your standard is that you accept all ahadith as 100% truth is it? I mean you, not Muslims, not aliens, just you.

Do you accept all ahadith as true?

You keep making things up about me. It's really irritating. I done talking to you about this, since you debate unfairly. Be well.

 

[firedragon]

You keep making things up about me. It's really irritating. I done talking to you about this, since you debate unfairly. Be well.

I just asked if you believe in ahadith because you are quoting them as 100% true. If you dont believe them so much, you won't quote them as historically accurate.

If that is being "unfair", no worries.

Cheers.

 

[stevecanuck]

9/11 is a warning of how misguided faith can also become our downfall.

I don't see 9/11 as a misguided outcome of Islam.

 

[stevecanuck]

It can do it in the same way christianity / christians did it.
By ignoring all the horrible bits and only focus on the good bits - and make those judgements through humanistic reasoning instead of by letting the medieval logic of the book tell you.

The bible is full of horrible bits that never were redacted either.
Instead, they are just ignored.

Comparing the bible to the qur'an is a whole 'nother topic that's best suited for its own thread. I've been reading the qur'an for 20 years, and being a Westerner in his 70's, I certainly have a working knowledge of Christianity and the bible. To make a VERY long story short, the overt militarism in the qur'an is much, much worse when taken as a whole than anything the bible has to offer. The message of the OT compared to the Medina verses is 180 degrees off.

 

[Brinne]

And I call bullocks on that one.

I see no causal link between "colonialism" and "imperialism" on the one hand and the brutal implementation of "shariah" on the other in these countries.

But I do see a causal link between fundamentalist islamic religious beliefs and such implementations.

You might be able to make a case that there is a link between colonialism / imperialism on the one hand, and being attracted to fundamentalist beliefs on the other, as some kind of "pushback" or whatever. But the beliefs are the beliefs. And they don't come from colonialism.

Then why do we see the rapid rise of these beliefs following the dismantling of sovereign statehood in the Middle East and the implementation and dissolution of British and French administration?

And why do prior state building efforts in the Middle East have a diversity of belief in regards to scriptural interpretation?

Your worldview and assertions cannot answer either of those questions. Which, if your assertion when challenged by historical fact is found lacking then I have to assume you're arguing from a position of emotional bias.

Would recommend looking up how the British treated the region; it was not at all pretty.

 

[firedragon]

I don't see 9/11 as a misguided outcome of Islam.

Well see any one can make random commentary.

I dont see 911 as having anything to do with Islam, but it has a lot to do with you personally.

So when someone says anything as "I see" that does not legitimise anything.

No problem if you wish to play this game.

 

[firedragon]

Comparing the bible to the qur'an is a whole 'nother topic that's best suited for its own thread. I've been reading the qur'an for 20 years, and being a Westerner in his 70's, I certainly have a working knowledge of Christianity and the bible. To make a VERY long story short, the overt militarism in the qur'an is much, much worse when taken as a whole than anything the bible has to offer. The message of the OT compared to the Medina verses is 180 degrees off.

Now since you are bringing in the OT arbitrarily and unethically, I will do the same tactic you do.

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17)

Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abomile deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)

Death for Fornication

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 )

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 )

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 )

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 )

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 )

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 )

You want more? One could play your cut and paste game.

 

[stevecanuck]

Now since you are bringing in the OT arbitrarily and unethically, I will do the same tactic you do.

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17)

Kill Homosexuals
“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abomile deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)

Death for Fornication

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 )

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 )

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 )

Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 )

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 )

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 )

You want more? One could play your cut and paste game.

Wow, I never knew any of that!!!

Oh, wait. I did. Everybody does. At this point a lecture on Jesus and the New Covenant usually ensues, but that doesn't really matter in this discussion.

Take a look at all that ridiculous OT ****, and yes I agree, it is ****. Every stinking word of it. But, it's all local. It's all about the community at hand. It has nothing to do with taking over the world. There is exactly zero commands in any of that to form an army and force the rest of the world to comply.

And there you have the difference between the OT and the Qur'an. Verse 9:29 was used as the template for Mohamed's "invitations to Islam". Mohamed built an army and used it to subdue the Arabian Peninsula. The Muslim army he created followed his orders and within 100 years found itself in France on its mission to conquer every nation it could. Groups such as ISIS have rededicated themselves to partying like it's 632. The entire Sahel is plagued by a giant Islamist insurgency. The Islamic ****hole of Mali (yes, that's its official name) alone has seven jihad groups killing for Allah. Mohamed's work took a couple of centuries off, but it's back. And it all stems from the words and deeds of Mohamed and the Qur'an.

 

[firedragon]

Oh, wait. I did. Everybody does.

Very good. So now tell me, you have read the Quran for 20 years. Where in the Quran does it say Meccan verses and Medinan verses?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well see any one can make random commentary.

I dont see 911 as having anything to do with Islam, but it has a lot to do with you personally.

So when someone says anything as "I see" that does not legitimise anything.

No problem if you wish to play this game.

It has as much to do with islam as a white nationalist shooting at a synagogue has to do with christianity.

 

[firedragon]

It has as much to do with islam as a white nationalist shooting at a synagogue has to do with christianity.

See, you didnt understand the context of that post. Maybe it was too much haste.

This guy made a hasty comment just arbitrarily. So if arbitrary random comments is the evidence of what someone says, I can make a random comment saying "You bombed America". Just some random comment. No evidence. No research. Nothing proper. Just a comment.

I can tell you that you bombed a placer in Asia. Some random comment. Anyone can say a lot of things.

So try and understand what someone says.

Nevertheless, ultimately I agree with you that it is the same as saying some shooting by a Christian has nothing to do with Christianity. I agree.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

See, you didnt understand the context of that post. Maybe it was too much haste.

This guy made a hasty comment just arbitrarily. So if arbitrary random comments is the evidence of what someone says, I can make a random comment saying "You bombed America". Just some random comment. No evidence. No research. Nothing proper. Just a comment.

I can tell you that you bombed a placer in Asia. Some random comment. Anyone can say a lot of things.

So try and understand what someone says.

Nevertheless, ultimately I agree with you that it is the same as saying some shooting by a Christian has nothing to do with Christianity. I agree.

You misunderstand me. I think that Christianity needs to understand that White Supremacists are coopting the religion. The supremacist that went to shoot up the synagogue near me in San Diego county was a well respected member of his evangelical church. There is something wrong that these Chrsitian churches are not dealing with the extremists in their rank, just as it is not right that the Muslim community was silent about Al Qaeda.