Cross or Upright Stake

[cataway]

Are we sure that the crosses were as tall as often depicted? It would only be necessary to have the victim's feet off the ground and a shorter pole would make putting him on and off much easier. Just guessing.

I had a silly thought. If I was designing a cross with access to today's materials, I would use a pulley at the top of the pole and rope to pull the already nailed victim up and also to lower him. Yes I know they had rope, but I'm not sure about pulleys. Maybe a hole at the top that the rope fed

i to have wondered that . . not going to say it was never done. standing a pole with no one nailed to it is far easier than standing one with a man attached to it .

 

[Subduction Zone]

i'm not going to argue that cross's were never used by the Roman's, they were . tied with rope or nailed then left to die would of been torcher .its hard to believe any one could do that to anyone. Its just mean beyond belief.
Israel law also used poles to hang up the convicted . however they were killed then hung-up

The resurrection story is one of a Roman crucifixion. Though the Hebrews appear to have copied them at times.

 

[Subduction Zone]

as in the case of a criminal ,in that setting ,pole and dead body would be carried off to the valley of Hinnom (gehenna) at that time some kind of a dumping place for trash

That would be a Jewish crucifixion. The Romans did not take the bodies down after they were dead.

 

[cataway]

That would be a Jewish crucifixion. The Romans did not take the bodies down after they were dead.

that would not be crucifixion . a crucifixion requires a crucifix

 

[cataway]

from Ezra 6 ''a timber will be pulled out of his house and he will be lifted up and fastened to it,* and his house will be turned into a public latrine*''

 

[Subduction Zone]

that would not be crucifixion . a crucifixion requires a crucifix

Crucifixion was done by several means as I showed earlier.. It does not require a cross. A simple pole was used at first. The cross bar, at the top there is no evidence for one underneath, was added later. And that was probably because they could keep the person alive longer by doing so. People sometimes forget that crucifixion was effective because of two things. One, it was a very long and painful agonizing death. Second the body was left up as a ghastly reminder that 'this could happen to you too'. Just a bare pole is technically a crucifix when they crucify someone on it. Today, due to Christianity, it almost always refers to a cross like we see in churches that resembles a lower case "t". Yet the part projecting above the crossbar almost certainly never existed.

 

[Alien826]

That would be a Jewish crucifixion. The Romans did not take the bodies down after they were dead.

I've done a bit of research on this, and what you say is correct. Generally the Romans would leave the body on the cross until the flesh was rotted away or eaten by birds (as an example to others and a punishment of the victim's family). The bones were eventually taken away and burned or otherwise disposed of. I'm not sure if the bones would typically fall down or whether some would have to be removed. A mixture of both seems likely.

I have also found some references to their acceding to requests by family to take the body down for burial.

Do you know if crosses were reused? I'm guessing sometimes yes, sometimes no. For example the Spartacus rebellion resulted in hundreds of crosses lining the Appian Way. It seems unlikely that so many crosses would be stored away for later use.

 

[Windwalker]

Where do you think wood comes from?

Home Depot?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I've done a bit of research on this, and what you say is correct. Generally the Romans would leave the body on the cross until the flesh was rotted away or eaten by birds (as an example to others and a punishment of the victim's family). The bones were eventually taken away and burned or otherwise disposed of. I'm not sure if the bones would typically fall down or whether some would have to be removed. A mixture of both seems likely.

I have also found some references to their acceding to requests by family to take the body down for burial.

Do you know if crosses were reused? I'm guessing sometimes yes, sometimes no. For example the Spartacus rebellion resulted in hundreds of crosses lining the Appian Way. It seems unlikely that so many crosses would be stored away for later use.

The crosses were reused I do believe. I think that the uprights were permanent from what I have read. And if you have ever worked on making an upright object stable one can appreciate that once you get an upright pole in place that you do not want to repeat that work. An upright just in soil will not be very stable. They may not have cleared out the old bones until a new victim was crucified.

 

[Windwalker]

I like the metaphor of the tree. It brings it back to the symbolism of Eden: Christ becomes the fruit of the Tree of Life and Death.

That sweet, nicely aged fermented fruit...

Or it brings to mind this:

 

[nPeace]

The point is the word stauros / stavros wwhich originally referred to wood or a tree but then its meaning shifted. In modern Greek, Ερυθρός Σταυρός (Erythrós Stavrós) is the word for the Red Cross.

That's an important point you mentioned.
In researching this topic, I was curious of what I would find on the internet.

gotquestions.org says this...

Spoiler: Cross or Stake?

This may come as a surprise to many, but the precise shape of the object on which Jesus was crucified cannot be proved explicitly from the Bible. The Greek word translated “cross” is stauros, meaning “a pole or a cross used as an instrument of capital punishment.” The Greek word stauroo, which is translated “crucify,” means “to be attached to a pole or cross.” Outside of the Bible, the same verb was also used in the context of putting up a fence with stakes. Though stauros can mean either “pole” or “stake,” many scholars argue that Jesus most likely died on a cross in which the upright beam projected above the shorter crosspiece. But a biblical, airtight case cannot be made for either a cross or a pole/stake. The Romans were not picky in regards to how they would crucify people. Historically, we know the Romans crucified people on crosses, poles, stakes, upside-down crosses, X-shaped crosses (such as the apostle Andrew is said to have been martyred on), walls, roofs, etc. Jesus could have been crucified on any of these objects, and it would not have affected the perfection or sufficiency of His sacrifice.

Certain cults, most notably the Jehovah’s Witnesses, are adamant that Jesus did not die on a cross and that the cross is in fact a pagan symbol. Their insistence on this point is curious, given the ambiguity of the Greek word. But they have worded their New World Translation to say that Jesus died on a “torture stake” rather than a cross.

Always interesting reading biased sources.

It is important to understand why Jehovah's Witnesses are adamant that Jesus died on a stake, as opposed to a cross.
For me, there are a number of compelling reasons. A few of these are my own.

Earlier Greek meaning
Stauros
The word stauros comes from the verb ἵστημι (histēmi: "straighten up", "stand"), which in turn comes from the Proto-Indo-European root *steh2-u- "pole", related to the root *steh2- "to stand, to set"
In older Greek texts, stauros means "pole" and in Homer's works is always used in the plural number, never in the singular.

Earlier issues surrounding the topic
The fact that it was an issue, which some felt needed attention, indicates that there was a change from what was known prior.
Justus Lipsius devoted chapter V of book I of his De Cruce to the crux simplex ad affixionem, the type of crux simplex on which someone was left to die by being fastened to it. As pictured in a poem by Ausonius, the victim could be affixed to the trunk of a tree with his arms attached to the branches. Even on its own the trunk could serve for that purpose. According to Lipsius, who quotes the report of Tertullian of the crucifixion of priests of Saturn on trees of their temple, trees, either trimmed or in full foliage, were in fact used for this purpose, particularly in mass crucifixions.

Drawing by Justus Lipsius: Crux simplex ad affixionem

The learned Catholic Justus Lipsius (1547-1606) represents this instrument of torture as such in his book De Cruce Libri Tres. The Greek word stauros that we translate by ‘cross’ had the initial meaning of ‘pile’ (forming part of a palisade), ‘stake’ (already used by the Assyrians and Persians), or even ‘post’ from which the victim was suspended.

“Stauros denotes, primarily, ‘an upright pale or stake’. Both the noun and the verb stauroo are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two-beamed ‘cross’”. Vine’s Dictionary


Those are fundamental facts, in my opinion.
The other facts, are what Jehovah's Witnesses hold to, and which support the previous.
They only ask people to consider why the popular view, is incorrect.
Basically, an eyewitness to Jesus' death, John used the Greek word stauros which was known primarily as an upright stake or pole.

John Denham Parsons wrote in the book The Non-Christian Cross: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross.”

I think, when we consider, how the "Church" changed many things, and why, around the 4th century, we should appreciate, that this would be one of those things.

 

[cataway]

Crucifixion was done by several means as I showed earlier.. It does not require a cross. A simple pole was used at first. The cross bar, at the top there is no evidence for one underneath, was added later. And that was probably because they could keep the person alive longer by doing so. People sometimes forget that crucifixion was effective because of two things. One, it was a very long and painful agonizing death. Second the body was left up as a ghastly reminder that 'this could happen to you too'. Just a bare pole is technically a crucifix when they crucify someone on it. Today, due to Christianity, it almost always refers to a cross like we see in churches that resembles a lower case "t". Yet the part projecting above the crossbar almost certainly never existed.

executions were done by several means. Jesus was not crucified ,he was ,pole-cified. a polecifixion . yep, i invented a word

 

[Subduction Zone]

executions were done by several means. Jesus was not crucified ,he was ,pole-cified. a polecifixion . yep, i invented a word

It is hard to say. If he had to carry the cross bar then he was crucified. The pole would have had to have been set up ahead of time regardless of method of execution.

 

[cataway]

It is hard to say. If he had to carry the cross bar then he was crucified. The pole would have had to have been set up ahead of time regardless of method of execution.

am i right in assuming you have little experience standing poles ? its ok most people have never had the opportunity. even the people that should know struggle with it

 

[Subduction Zone]

am i right in assuming you have little experience standing poles ? its ok most people have never had the opportunity. even the people that should know struggle with it

I have done some fencing in my lifetime:

Oops, wrong fencing. What have you done that requires upright poles?

 

[cataway]

I have done some fencing in my lifetime:


View attachment 73894


Oops, wrong fencing. What have you done that requires upright poles?

Pole barns

 

[Subduction Zone]

Pole barns

Can you just dig a hole and drop in pole? I never was involved with those, they are a bit "mobile homeish".

 

[cataway]

Can you just dig a hole and drop in pole? I never was involved with those, they are a bit "mobile homeish".

thats more or less correct . its suggested that the hole be deep enough to get below the frost line. concrete 6-8"X16" thick into the hole ,give it a few hours to set .codes do vary. the house that i am working on right now has that type foundation

 

[Subduction Zone]

thats more or less correct . its suggested that the hole be deep enough to get below the frost line. concrete 6-8"X16" thick into the hole ,give it a few hours to set .codes do vary. the house that i am working on right now has that type foundation

Oh so you cannot just dig a hole.

 

[cataway]

Oh so you cannot just dig a hole.

not going to say cant be done .fencing would just be a hole doug ,pole dropped into it