Crucifixion and Atonement - I Don't Understand

[nazz]

I did not state ONLY scientific evidences. There's a whole bunch of things that is involved in the evidences - I listed and discussed them all through out the thread.

Preservation of the Qur'an
Scientific Facts in the Qur'an
Historical Facts in the Qur'an
Prophecies in the Qur'an/Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)'s Sayings
Literary Miracle of the Qur'an in Arabic

All of that together certainly proves the point. But I do not want to discuss the same things over again in this thread.

There are reasons I do not believe the Qur'an is the Word of God (I used to believe it was) just as there are reasons I no longer believe the Bible is the Word of God either. But that would be the topic for another thread.

 

[loverOfTruth]

There are reasons I do not believe the Qur'an is the Word of God (I used to believe it was) just as there are reasons I no longer believe the Bible is the Word of God either. But that would be the topic for another thread.

Indeed, that is topic for another thread.

Until then Peace to you.

 

[sojourner]

You did not answer my question - do you have a Master of Divinity from Harvard or may be anywhere else ? Now you start discrediting Harvard ? Top Divinity Schools in the U.S.

I would doubt that they'll allow him to be an ordained minister in the Methodist Church without formal bible training.

I hold an M.Div. (with honors) from a fully-accredited seminary. Further, I have accumulated several continuing education credits in bible and theology from University of the South at Sewanee. Additionally, I maintain ministerial standing in a mainline, protestant denomination, and have done so for 12 years.

I didn't discredit Harvard. I merely said that it's not unequivocally the "best" seminary. Just because someone attended Harvard Divinity doesn't mean they know more than anyone else.

 

[nazz]

Indeed, that is topic for another thread.

Until then Peace to you.

wa aleikhum

 

[F0uad]

How can that which is perfectly what it is be "improved?"

I wouldn't call the Bible perfect nor its teaching the atonement makes no sense wherein the Quranic salvation does, there are several teachings that i can name.

Jesus' death was not human sacrifice neither was it self-extermination.

How would you call it? According to the biblical scriptures and teachings Jesus(pbuh) wanted to die for us heck he was created and send to die for us..

Jesus did not die for our sins, IMO. Not in the way most Christians believe. He died because he dared to challenge the political and religious establishment of his day. Just as many prophets before him did.

Well i don't agree that he died but rather that god has lifted him up, since your not a mainstream Christian there is no discussion.

 

[F0uad]

I hold an M.Div. (with honors) from a fully-accredited seminary. Further, I have accumulated several continuing education credits in bible and theology from University of the South at Sewanee. Additionally, I maintain ministerial standing in a mainline, protestant denomination, and have done so for 12 years.

I didn't discredit Harvard. I merely said that it's not unequivocally the "best" seminary. Just because someone attended Harvard Divinity doesn't mean they know more than anyone else.

Agrees, also to point out there are many Christians who also hold a PHD of Harvard or other seminaries that still remain in Christianity. Nowadays having a PHD is nothing its more a title to show off.

 

[sojourner]

I wouldn't call the Bible perfect

I didn't call the bible "perfect." I said that it is perfectly what it is. You indicated that the Koran is somehow an "improvement" over the bible. I wondered how something that is already perfectly what it is, could be improved.

The answer is, it can't. Y'all didn't end up with something that was more perfectly a bible. You ended up with something completely different.

Your statement is patently false.

 

[sojourner]

nor its teaching the atonement

it doesn't teach atonement.

 

[sojourner]

Well i don't agree that he died but rather that god has lifted him up, since your not a mainstream Christian there is no discussion.

I am a mainstream Xtian, though, and his post makes perfect sense to me.

 

[F0uad]

I didn't call the bible "perfect." I said that it is perfectly what it is. You indicated that the Koran is somehow an "improvement" over the bible. I wondered how something that is already perfectly what it is, could be improved.

The answer is, it can't. Y'all didn't end up with something that was more perfectly a bible. You ended up with something completely different.

Your statement is patently false.

Well we first have to define that perfect, in what way is the bible perfect for or according to you? I see the revelations from god as teachings humans morals, ideas and the acceptance in one god. Now if your argument is that the Bible teachings these things ''better'' then the Quran or is in anyway perfect then with all respect you have some real issue or you never opened the Quran.

it doesn't teach atonement.

There are several let me rephrase there are millions of Christians who disagree but i am not holding you accountable of what other people belief so no discussion here.

I am a mainstream Xtian, though, and his post makes perfect sense to me.

Do you hold the idea of the ''crusifiction''? If so then there is no understanding on what i said earlier.

 

[sojourner]

Well we first have to define that perfect, in what way is the bible perfect for or according to you?

It is perfectly what it is. I thought I was clear on that point.

I see the revelations from god as teachings humans morals, ideas and the acceptance in one god. Now if your argument is that the Bible teachings these things ''better'' then the Quran or is in anyway perfect then with all respect you have some real issue or you never opened the Quran.

I'm not the one trying to compare the two. That's your faux pas. I don't think the two can be compared, because they're not the same thing. Why do you think you all came up with a "Quran" instead of a "bible?"
1) If you were trying to improve on the bible, coming up with something different, instead, represents an epic fail.
2) Coming up with a gasoline engine and then touting that "it's better than a horse," only means that you haven't fully appreciated the horse.

There are several let me rephrase there are millions of Christians who disagree but i am not holding you accountable of what other people belief so no discussion here.

There are millions of Xtians who agree, too. So what?

Do you hold the idea of the ''crusifiction''? If so then there is no understanding on what i said earlier.

It's spelled "crucifixion." Jesus was crucified by the Romans in regular fashion.

 

[Right lane]

By sinning, Adam passed on to his offspring both sin and it's outcome, death. (Romans 5:12) God, in his perfect justice, could not overlook or forgive sin without a legal basis to do so. As Romans 3:23-26 explains: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus. God set him forth as an offering for propitiation through faith in his blood. This was to exhibit his own righteousness,...so as to exhibit his own righteousness in this present season, that he [God] might be righteous even when declaring righeous the man that has faith in Jesus."
The ransom sacrifice is beautiful in it's simplicity and perfect in justice. A perfect man sacrificed his life as an equivalent to the first man, who forfeited life through his sin. Thus, God can now legally forgive sins on the basis of that perfect sacrifice without violating his own law. It is also, in my opinion, the greatest expression of love ever shown. As Romans 5:8,9 says: God recormmends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more, therefore, since we have been declared righeous now by his blood, shall we be saved through him from wrath."

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Are you saying "perfect" justice is to punish the innocent to pay for the actions of the guilty ?

 

[F0uad]

It is perfectly what it is. I thought I was clear on that point.

Well what is it according to you Historical testimony, revelation or what? Define the perfectness.. Perfect being in what? What is it..

I'm not the one trying to compare the two. That's your faux pas. I don't think the two can be compared, because they're not the same thing. Why do you think you all came up with a "Quran" instead of a "bible?"
1) If you were trying to improve on the bible, coming up with something different, instead, represents an epic fail.
2) Coming up with a gasoline engine and then touting that "it's better than a horse," only means that you haven't fully appreciated the horse.

I am not getting your point here i was talking about it being a better Moral, Guideline and so forth, if they are not the same thing as they both claim then what is the bible according to you?

There are millions of Xtians who agree, too. So what?

Nothing did i not say that i do not hold you accountable of beliefs of others? :sarcastic

It's spelled "crucifixion." Jesus was crucified by the Romans in regular fashion.

Well i know its spelled with a x but i prefer the c since i don't belief that Jesus(pbuh) was crucified at all however that isn't the point here.

 

[sojourner]

Well what is it according to you Historical testimony, revelation or what? Define the perfectness.. Perfect being in what? What is it..

The bible is the compendium of written Tradition of the Judaic/Christian people, through the use of a number of literary genres including myth, narrative, poetry, Law, prophecy, and letter.

I am not getting your point here i was talking about it being a better Moral, Guideline and so forth, if they are not the same thing as they both claim then what is the bible according to you?

The bible makes no claim as to what it is. We make the claim, since we wrote it.

Well i know its spelled with a x but i prefer the c since i don't belief that Jesus(pbuh) was crucified at all however that isn't the point here.

What you believe is immaterial, since you're not a Xtian.

 

[F0uad]

The bible is the compendium of written Tradition of the Judaic/Christian people, through the use of a number of literary genres including myth, narrative, poetry, Law, prophecy, and letter.

The bible makes no claim as to what it is. We make the claim, since we wrote it.

What you believe is immaterial, since you're not a Xtian.

Ok.... :run:

 

[loverOfTruth]

I hold an M.Div. (with honors) from a fully-accredited seminary. Further, I have accumulated several continuing education credits in bible and theology from University of the South at Sewanee. Additionally, I maintain ministerial standing in a mainline, protestant denomination, and have done so for 12 years.

I didn't discredit Harvard. I merely said that it's not unequivocally the "best" seminary. Just because someone attended Harvard Divinity doesn't mean they know more than anyone else.

Ok, but I never said that anyone who goes to Harvard knows everything either. I was merely stating that Dr. Dirk is not a Joe on the street - He has his qualifications to speak on the matter.

 

[nazz]

Ok, but I never said that anyone who goes to Harvard knows everything either. I was merely stating that Dr. Dirk is not a Joe on the street - He has his qualifications to speak on the matter.

I am sure he has qualifications but that doesn't mean he is an objective scholar. He has an agenda which is to support the Islamic view.

 

[F0uad]

I am sure he has qualifications but that doesn't mean he is an objective scholar. He has an agenda which is to support the Islamic view.

Ah so because he is a muslim he has to have a agenda or not be valid?

 

[nazz]

Ah so because he is a muslim he has to have a agenda or not be valid?

Do you seriously think as a Muslim he would go against Islamic teaching?

 

[Drolefille]

Again, what do you mean by "historically accurate?" We can't expect the biblical texts to be what they aren't. History was reckoned differently by the ancients than it is by us. To us, history is an amalgam of factual details. To them, history was story, and the details were relatively unimportant. You want specific dates, times, weights, measures and verifiable quotations. That's not what they were after. It doesn't matter on what specific dates Jesus was born and crucified. What matters is the impact that birth and crucifixion had on human history. I think the gospels do an admirable job in laying that out for us.

Yes they tell a nice story, but they are not historically accurate - and I'm using our modern paradigm of this, btw. There were many historians during Greek and Roman times, and though they varied in accuracy they were more reliable than the bible if only due to timeframe of writing. In my opinion at least. It's the biblical literalists who disagree. Although I take issue with your idea of what matters. What matters to you or to the authors isn't necessarily what matters to me. And if divine inspiration ... Etc. You know the argument.

So yes, basically I agree with you. I'm not sure what you're arguing here or perhasps why you're arguing with me. . Jesus didn't have to die for the Bible to be written, the myth of him dying is all that is required - and I use myth here as legend, not as falsehood. You can see how easily misinformation can travel evn with media and the internet out there fact checking. Imagine 30 years after one man - supposedly, legendarily, died. Numerically few people can contest it.
I'm not a biblical scholar but I find the possibilities fascinating as I have no stake in the result

(apologies for formatting/spelling/grammatical errors, my phone really hates the commenting system)