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Curious question to the unvaccinated

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I liked the link you gave me about all different propaganda being used. I never thought about it that much before, but the whole picture became suddenly much clearer after reading your link (propaganda being used in war, crisis and what not). All news seems to me 1 big propaganda nowadays (esp. American news)


When we are unbiased then indeed it's more easy to find a few similar things

I am just interested in the truth. But that's messy and not easy to find with all their manipulation. But I just continue, and don' t make decision until I feel good about it.

What's weird is I can't find any misinformation and myths (unless I really intentionally looked) about covid and vaccines. Every single result and/or video is about COVID stats, how unvax are ignorant, how to convince unvaxed, new deaths, sad stories, crowded hospitals, and even a testimony of how an unvaxed person miraculously decided to vax as inspiration for "hesitant" unvax to change their mind.

Unless unvaxed actually typed in vax myths and words like antivax there wouldn't be anything. So not sure how people are tricked into misinfo' unless they intentionally go out of their way to find it.

Mind you, I'm specifically talking about how the message is received and expressed not downgrading the serious of illnesses, repercussions, and treatments.

It's a mess.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I support vaccine mandates, because I can see that it is pointless to appeal to either science or civil duty with large numbers of people, I know that they will continue to make selfish decisions, and I want it stopped by any means necessary including vaccine mandates for those for whom they are not medically contraindicated. I've heard the arguments and rejected them. I no longer care if one is comfortable taking a vaccine, or wants full FDA approval, or is waiting to see how things go out there, or calls the vaccines experimental. I have good reasons to reject all of those ideas, and am really not interested in trying to appeal to their sense of reason or decency.

Okay. I'm not saying you have to accept the ideas. Just in the back of my mind I don't see this ending with the differences of ideas but a division. This is for what we think would be a short term solution (as if herd immunity would all of the sudden magically wipe the virus out) and ignoring a long-term problem.

It would be like pleading with a bank robber to please stop robbing banks by appealing to their sense of decency and community.

No "how would you like it" argument can have any impact on somebody like this, because he doesn't care who he hurts. That's what sociopathic means.

You lock him up, a sort of "no bank robbing" mandate if you will.

No. It would be like kicking a customer out the bank because he choose not to potentially defend himself and others when a bank robber approached. What's more is if majority of the customers in the bank defended themselves and others, the bank robber would be at a lost. The minority who stood steel didn't make the robber more or less lethal. Majority wins.

No, that genie is out of the bottle until and unless new vaccines appear that can not only prevent severe disease and death, but also sharply reduce simple person to person transfer, and that vaccine can be administered to most of the world before a virus that can break through that level of immunity arises. We could have the whole world vaccinated now, and we would still expect the virus to continue taking up residence in the human race to spread itself indefinitely until it devises a mutation that begins killing again.

Why are you getting at a minority that didn't vaccinate?

Maybe it's to help vaccinated feel better about themselves to reach herd immunity but if it really depended on the unvaccinated, we would be forced to take the vaccine not be coerced in so many ways as if for some one more tactic will change their mind. Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result.

Plus, since the unvaccinated are the minority and the exempt are even more of a minority, we can't really stop the majority from herd immunity. If you guys really wanted all unvaccinated people to get vaccinated there would be no exempt because the virus would be more important (given it killed many lives) than the risk of an allergy affect. In other words, I think you-guys' problem is more about the decision not concern about the virus spreading.

I don't blame the antivaxxers for this. This was going to happen simply because the world couldn't get vaccines to those willing to take them fast enough. Even if people hadn't refused vaccines, this still would have happened - we'd still have the delta variant percolating indefinitely through the human race, it's principal reservoir and vector.

You don't???

Anti-vaxxers are the ones rejecting taking the vaccine and protesting against it. So, by default, you're blaming anti-vaxxers for making a decision that doesn't align with the well-fare of humanity.

Yes. That's why I wonder why people are so jumpy that unvaccinated aren't vaccinating. It's not overnight.

According to provaxxers anti-vaxxers make self-decisions. But I agree, even if people didn't refuse this would still happen. So, why would people's decisions be such an issue if the same thing would happen regardless if the world is vaccinated or not?

I still consider them selfish, and all things being equal, not the best choice of person to trust or put yourself in a position to have to depend on. I still resent how little they cared about others. It's a character issue. I think it was you that framed this as a cultural choice between individualism and collectivism. I disagree. We do both. That's reflected in the dual role every citizen in a free, capitalist society has - to pursue happiness for himself and to facilitate others doing the same by cheerfully obeying the law and paying taxes. I don't accept calling what I call selfishness individualism. It's that, but more, and worse.

Unless you're talking of anti-vaxxers activist, I don't see how they aren't carring about others. I would need to know who they are, their character, I'd have to assess the context, and pretty much know them personally to judge them based on their political views and decisions.

That's me.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
What's weird is I can't find any misinformation and myths (unless I really intentionally looked) about covid and vaccines. Every single result and/or video is about COVID stats, how unvax are ignorant, how to convince unvaxed, new deaths, sad stories, crowded hospitals, and even a testimony of how an unvaxed person miraculously decided to vax as inspiration for "hesitant" unvax to change their mind.
True, censorship in USA is heave(n)ly promoted and it's scaring me that they are so easily able to filter out every (non)covid-gospel. China could learn a thing or 2 from USA about censorship; indeed China2.0

Even more worrysome to me is that most Americans (only RF I know) accept China2.0 censorship and even seem to favor and promote it

Mind you, I'm specifically talking about how the message is received and expressed not downgrading the serious of illnesses, repercussions, and treatments.

It's a mess.
Of course, covid is bad, no doubt, and I don't want anyone to die from it

But to me the censorship that comes with covid is at least as bad as covid. My grandfather who fought in WW2 warned people till his death, that fascism is still alive, and we should be grateful and never let them Hitler look a likes take our Freedom of Speech away again

It happened very quick... some fearmongering and within a year or 2 our freedom was gone.

Bloody mess to get it back
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
Okay. I'm not saying you have to accept the ideas. Just in the back of my mind I don't see this ending with the differences of ideas but a division. This is for what we think would be a short term solution (as if herd immunity would all of the sudden magically wipe the virus out) and ignoring a long-term problem.
Not just difference of ideas, but giving away our Freedom (of Speech) and what not. The hidden agenda is already pretty much revealed for those who are still open to see

No. It would be like kicking a customer out the bank because he choose not to potentially defend himself and others when a bank robber approached. What's more is if majority of the customers in the bank defended themselves and others, the bank robber would be at a lost. The minority who stood steel didn't make the robber more or less lethal. Majority wins.
:cool: much more useful analogy

Why are you getting at a minority that didn't vaccinate?

Maybe it's to help vaccinated feel better about themselves to reach herd immunity but if it really depended on the unvaccinated, we would be forced to take the vaccine not be coerced in so many ways as if for some one more tactic will change their mind. Doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result.
That's still the influence of Abraham Religion (ca. 100 years ago ca. 100% were Christian in my country) to impose on others and try hard to brainwash. Religion can be ditched relatively easy, but these side effects obviously not
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't see this ending with the differences of ideas but a division.

How about both? Further division over differences in ideas.

America is already two peoples with two very different cultures, values, and agendas that frankly make them unfit to share a nation. Both parts would be happier without the influence of the other. That doesn't mean that there will ever be a successful succession or division (think Czechoslovakia dividing into two separate ethnicities), but these two subcultures aren't coming together on anything in our lifetimes, so adding division over vaccine status to the mix is like adding a tree to the forest

Why are you getting at a minority that didn't vaccinate?

I don't know what you mean by "getting at." I am critical of the willfully unvaccinated. I explained in what way. I don't blame them for the advent of the delta variant or its widespread presence, and I don't consider it to be much of a threat to encounter one, meaning that I don't see them as the cause of why we have to live as we do.

I do see them as the cause of deaths in America now, but that's a problem for the unvaccinated and those who they hurt.

Their only interest to me is with those that would be in my personal life, not remote unvaccinated people, and not because they are unvaccinated, but because they chose to be. I don't have the same feeling about the unwillingly unvaccinated.

we can't really stop the majority from herd immunity.

The virus can and has prevented herd immunity by breaking through the existing vaccines. Unless a vaccine arises that prevents transmission to (and then from) the vaccinated, herd immunity just can't occur. Herd immunity isn't about whether everybody has antibodies, but whether a majority are resistant to acquiring and transmitting the virus. When the virus has fewer and fewer places to go, and the numbers of people around you that have it or can get it is relatively small, that's herd immunity.
 

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
I am critical of the willfully unvaccinated.

I do see them as the cause of deaths in America now, but that's a problem for the unvaccinated and those who they hurt.

So a “willfully unvaccinated” person who works from home or is retired and rarely interacts with other people in person, they are “the cause of deaths in america now”. Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I would like to know who exactly it was that they hurt or killed.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
So a “willfully unvaccinated” person who works from home or is retired and rarely interacts with other people in person, they are “the cause of deaths in america now”. Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I would like to know who exactly it was that they hurt or killed.

Surprisingly such people are high on the list of those that end up in Hospital. low contact or not.
Such people as they do come into contact with are often in the high risk bracket of those passing Covid on.
Such as health visitors, home helps, doctors, delivery people, and church members.

I also fall into that isolated old fogy bracket, however I am double vaccinated.
But my daughter is married to a GP so contact chances are high, even though they both have regular, almost daily, tests and are double vaccinated.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
True, censorship in USA is heave(n)ly promoted and it's scaring me that they are so easily able to filter out every (non)covid-gospel. China could learn a thing or 2 from USA about censorship; indeed China2.0

Even more worrysome to me is that most Americans (only RF I know) accept China2.0 censorship and even seem to favor and promote it


Of course, covid is bad, no doubt, and I don't want anyone to die from it

But to me the censorship that comes with covid is at least as bad as covid. My grandfather who fought in WW2 warned people till his death, that fascism is still alive, and we should be grateful and never let them Hitler look a likes take our Freedom of Speech away again

It happened very quick... some fearmongering and within a year or 2 our freedom was gone.

Bloody mess to get it back

I agree. Censorship is just as bad as COVID. Even social media sites just as much. Ive personally never witness such a thing this drastic. I knew they censor some inappropriate things like promotion of suicide, but I wonder if it's actually the social media, for example, heads decision or would they loose out on members if they let both sides talk. I don't know.

I thought china was very strict on their censorship especially with internet material?

I read anything that badmouth their government are censored.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
Plus, since the unvaccinated are the minority and the exempt are even more of a minority, we can't really stop the majority from herd immunity. If you guys really wanted all unvaccinated people to get vaccinated there would be no exempt because the virus would be more important (given it killed many lives) than the risk of an allergy affect. In other words, I think you-guys' problem is more about the decision not concern about the virus spreading.
:)

You don't???

Anti-vaxxers are the ones rejecting taking the vaccine and protesting against it. So, by default, you're blaming anti-vaxxers for making a decision that doesn't align with the well-fare of humanity.
:cool::cool::cool:

Yes. That's why I wonder why people are so jumpy that unvaccinated aren't vaccinating. It's not overnight.

According to provaxxers anti-vaxxers make self-decisions. But I agree, even if people didn't refuse this would still happen. So, why would people's decisions be such an issue if the same thing would happen regardless if the world is vaccinated or not?
I know many ways to boost immune system (diet and other lifestyles, BMI 18.5). Very effective, some even CDC tells us now

I don't impose them on vaxxers

How would anti-antivaxxers act if those were imposed on them?

All who eat excess junk food and haunt for other excessive sense gratification are themselves the major cause to this covid problem, hence should never judge those who choose to not vaccinate, but take their own responsibility following proper lifestyle
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So a “willfully unvaccinated” person who works from home or is retired and rarely interacts with other people in person, they are “the cause of deaths in america now”. Yeah that makes a lot of sense. I would like to know who exactly it was that they hurt or killed.

If they can stay alive, then they aren't contributing to the COVID death rate. The one they hurt or kill would be themselves if they misjudge matters, misjudge their degree of contact and the risk to them of any human contact at all given the delta variant's pathogenicity.

People who say that they never interact with other human beings generally don't actually do that.

We did. My wife and I were able to do so, but only because we're retired, live with no small children, have no nearby family (we're expats), and have access to delivery of groceries, dried goods, medications, and packages. Money was left on the terrace outside the glass front door. Our front gate can be unlocked electronically from the house.

Even our vet made house calls. And we were lucky to not need delivery or repair people in the house before we were vaccinated (propane tank outdoors)

It is literally true that the only time either of us was within 20 feet of another human being without a barrier between us was the one time we needed gas (we drove around weekly with the windows up to keep the car battery charged and the moving parts lubricated) was when we rolled down the window to pay for the gas, and even then, it took about 3 seconds (no change, thank you).

Our local friends could have done the same except for a handful that couldn't afford to add delivery charges to their orders and went into shops, but everybody else we know had human contact. Our friend Martha would tell you that she has almost no human contact, yet she went out to shop, and had a gardener and housekeeper during the pandemic. She either never acquired COVID, or it was asymptomatic if she did.

But this year is different for the unvaccinated (we were all that last year during the milder variant of coronavirus circulating then). The fraction of people infected at any given time is much higher, meaning that this year, with the delta variant predominating, Martha's helpers would be much more likely to bring the virus to her home, and if they did, she would be several times more likely to acquire it from them. And her vet. And her shopkeepers.

This is a different disease in 2021. We've learned that it is more contagious, is making younger patients sicker, and is more fulminating (severe and rapidly progressive). Martha may already have had a very mild or asymptomatic case since becoming fully vaccinated. If so, she survived it, as would be expected for as long as her immunity hold or until a worse variant that can break through vaccines with severe illness or death arises. That applies to all of us. We feel safe for now, venturing out for outdoor restaurants, having vaccinated friends over in small numbers, ordering delivery meals (we avoided them prevaccination to minimize the number of people coming to our home), and my wife has been taking ukulele classes (six people, outdoors, all with proof of vaccination).

And guess what? She had a mild case of COVID - sore throat, headache, low grade fever, and fatigue for about 5 days. We discontinued going out for ten days, but returned to our new level of activity thereafter.

Many people are unaware of the fact that their experience last year doesn't translate to 2021. My friend Howard didn't recognize that. He had COVID last August before vaccines were available, and survived it without hospitalization or long-haul symptoms. He chose to not take the vaccine, thinking that the only difference now was that he has post-infectious antibodies, so why take a vaccine? The unvaccinated are the ones dying. Not all of course, but the COVID death rates are over 95% unvaccinated (I've seen 99% of deaths are in the unvaccinated).

It's not that there was any contraindication to vaccination for him. He simply made a medical decision against recommendations like so many people who now see themselves as qualified to decide for themselves what's best for themselves, and I don't know if he's dead or alive now. He became severely ill this month with COVID, and his family came to Mexico to medevac him back to the States for care about a week ago. Nobody's heard from him since. I hope he's home and comfortable, but we probably would have received an email from him if he could have sent one (the family don't know who his Mexican friends are or how to reach us, and we don't know who they are, either). Howard may have been "a cause of death in America now," although I would consider his death a Mexican death if he dies or has died.

So yeah, COVID deaths are occurring in the unvaccinated, and those who choose to be unvaccinated are adding to that death count, as are those who would like a vaccine but can't get one before acquiring delta COVID and die.

The good news is that the unvaccinated are really only a threat to themselves. They could only hurt the rest of us if they were allowed to occupy all of our local hospital beds. But that can't happen, since COVID cases are transported to a major city an hour away. So, while I don't see them as an imminent threat to my wife, me, or my vaccinated friends, I can still say that I consider them foolish.

The point is that the virus is much more likely to be acquired by even the most casual human contact as was the case with us (if I had the virus, it was asymptomatic, although I did have a sore throat for about a half day during my wife's illness), and the experience is much likelier to be lethal with delta. Also, people who say that they have no contact with others are almost certainly wrong about that as they were last year, when they did fine before delta was here and before vaccines were available. And for me, that's what makes this whole, "I won't get this, I can't give it to anyone, and even if I did, I'll be fine" narrative so dangerous for those who rely on isolation and natural immunity to avoid the ICU or morgue.

Good luck to all of the unvaccinated trying to get through 2021 and delta. A lot will make it, but many will go through hell for no good reason. Some (or their loved ones) may be on the news telling others not to underestimate this virus and to go get a vaccine. We're telling them now, but in vain, as are the ones on the news. Anybody that can learn from words alone already has and has already taken the vaccine if possible. Those that can't are still unvaccinated and won't listen to those like them who only learn from experience. They have to experience the horror of wakeful suffocation or see it to learn that there is a very real threat to them out there.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
How about both? Further division over differences in ideas.

America is already two peoples with two very different cultures, values, and agendas that frankly make them unfit to share a nation. Both parts would be happier without the influence of the other. That doesn't mean that there will ever be a successful succession or division (think Czechoslovakia dividing into two separate ethnicities), but these two subcultures aren't coming together on anything in our lifetimes, so adding division over vaccine status to the mix is like adding a tree to the forest

Yeah. Doesn't help our president is adding to the forest fire (if to put it that way).

I don't know what you mean by "getting at." I am critical of the willfully unvaccinated. I explained in what way. I don't blame them for the advent of the delta variant or its widespread presence, and I don't consider it to be much of a threat to encounter one, meaning that I don't see them as the cause of why we have to live as we do.

I think that's the difference between disagreeing with behavior and opinions and using those opinions to prevent unvaccinated from doing X, Y, and Z. Everyone has their own opinions but to me it seems political masks as "healthcare concerns."

I do see them as the cause of deaths in America now, but that's a problem for the unvaccinated and those who they hurt.

Their only interest to me is with those that would be in my personal life, not remote unvaccinated people, and not because they are unvaccinated, but because they chose to be. I don't have the same feeling about the unwillingly unvaccinated.

I wish others had the same sentiment honestly.

The virus can and has prevented herd immunity by breaking through the existing vaccines. Unless a vaccine arises that prevents transmission to (and then from) the vaccinated, herd immunity just can't occur. Herd immunity isn't about whether everybody has antibodies, but whether a majority are resistant to acquiring and transmitting the virus. When the virus has fewer and fewer places to go, and the numbers of people around you that have it or can get it is relatively small, that's herd immunity.

I just think it would take longer than people think not that it won't work.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
I thought china was very strict on their censorship especially with internet material?

I read anything that badmouth their government are censored.
Badmouth might be why they created masks:D

China is very strict from what I've read, but they have been practicing it for decades.

Whereas USA does in 1 year something similar, and we have not seen the end yet.

I read a post in which RF'er was happy to see people without mask goto jail. That's how Hitler started. We all know where that ended. My grandfather fought his whole life to never get there again, but warned us that this danger is still very real.

Of course masks work. If you have high quality 98% or 95% protection it might stop viruses a bit. But worldwide my guess is that 99% of the people use the cheap ones that stop maybe 10% if lucky (at least in Holland they do)

Of course 10% is better than nothing, but I call it not smart AND rather call it Russian Roulette. Nothing wrong of course, people are free to choose IMO. And sending to jail is hypocritical. Scientists know better

Just watch movies about virus and how they are wearing a full protection. If a mask was sufficient they would not use these astronaut like suits, would they? Just saying. Common sense
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I read a post in which RF'er was happy to see people without mask goto jail. That's how Hitler started. We all know where that ended. My grandfather fought his whole life to never get there again, but warned us that this danger is still very real.

Which is odd because unless they segregate non-mask wearier (and even more so unvaccinated) in jails in their own little "room" that's almost cruel and unusual punishment. Then if they supported the death penalty for non-mask wearers and unvaccinated that's borderline "holacaustic" to put it lightly. When people go to jail, they go because of crimes they committed or about to commit. So, if someone threatened someone else "I will kill you cause I have a gun in my pocket" that's reason enough to be afraid (not sure the legal consequences of such threat-depends on context). But if the same person said "I am unvaccinated" and the other thought "oh, he will kill me by that sentence alone" the law can't do anything. They'd probably laugh and say "so?"

and go to jail for that statement because science says its so to the general worldwide unvaccinated population?

Then there would need to be a precedent that people who chose not to vaccinate are at higher risk of spreading the virus than someone who is exempt in order to warrant a fair punishment to one party over another.

Of course masks work. If you have high quality 98% or 95% protection it might stop viruses a bit. But worldwide my guess is that 99% of the people use the cheap ones that stop maybe 10% if lucky (at least in Holland they do)

I think masks works to a certain extent. If people trusted the vaccine and it went through the same thing other meds and treatments go through when it comes to severe side effects, I'd say the vaccine works better than masks. For example, some people have seizures so much they need to wear a helmet. I'd go to another doctor if it were me if the doctor dependent on the helmet to keep me alive and not the medicine.

So, in that respect, I get it. I'm an advocate for making one's own decisions not so much of a political thing but people have the right to make decisions based for themselves AND others via their own health, morals, how they interpret the facts, and general sense of comfortableness to make decisions without feeling forced or coerced. I think some people have a better pride (at least in America) when they have their own rights to contribute to others well-being. If they feel forced (at least for me) its no longer doing the good of the nation. It takes away that sense of civil duty.

Of course 10% is better than nothing, but I call it not smart AND rather call it Russian Roulette. Nothing wrong of course, people are free to choose IMO. And sending to jail is hypocritical. Scientists know better

No doctor would punish their patient for refusing, rejecting, or making an informed choice not to take treatment and meds. Regardless if its for thousands of people or just one person.

Just watch movies about virus and how they are wearing a full protection. If a mask was sufficient they would not use these astronaut like suits, would they? Just saying. Common sense

I know I'll get backlash from this (looks around) but I 'also' believe the mask thing is so people feel a sense of safety and they are doing things themselves rather than wait for the government to handle things (since experts can't make laws and mandates). It's an successful way to prevent panic.

I don't know where I got it from but I've always been skeptical of cult-like thinking, propaganda, things like that. Even when I was at a Buddhist organization where they evangelize quite heavily for the good of humanity rubbed me wrong.

Now if they said cult-like thinking and propaganda is appropriate for this situation, then I'd disagree but at least they were honest. But to reject it based on who said it and why as misinformation and so forth sounds TO ME like denial or blindness.
 
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stvdv

Veteran Member
Which is odd because unless they segregate non-mask wearier (and even more so unvaccinated) in jails in their own little "room" that's almost cruel and unusual punishment. Then if they supported the death penalty for non-mask wearers and unvaccinated that's borderline "holacaustic" to put it lightly.
Very useful observation. If unvaxxed are that much of a threat to others then putting them in jail is like "death sentence" them, as at home 1.5m soc.distance is do-able, not so much in jail

Besides that it's crazy and Adharmic to put someone in jail just because he does not trust the insufficiently (incl. longterm) tested vaccines to be put in his body

Besides that, scientists have been jojo-ing themselves on y/n masks, not once, not twice, but too many times, thereby obviously becoming less trustworthy.

But if the same person said "I am unvaccinated" and the other thought "oh, he will kill me by that sentence alone" the law can't do anything. They'd probably laugh and say "so?"
I hope so
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
and go to jail for that statement because science says its so to the general worldwide unvaccinated population?

Then there would need to be a precedent that people who chose not to vaccinate are at higher risk of spreading the virus than someone who is exempt in order to warrant a fair punishment to one party over another.
They (scientists) have been presenting themselves to the public as 'groping in the dark'. If they get their act together I might reconsider

No doctor would punish their patient for refusing, rejecting, or making an informed choice not to take treatment and meds. Regardless if its for thousands of people or just one person.
That's the interesting part. The official letter of my goverment was friendly, and so much more compassionate and empathic than what I read on RF the past year. Strange. Seems that the propaganda turned some people into 'horrible' judgmental people, hence the danger of propaganda. Before you know the vax-fanatics kill the unvaxxers by putting them in jail.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
I know I'll get backlash from this (looks around) but I 'also' believe the mask thing is so people feel a sense of safety and they are doing things themselves rather than wait for the government to handle things (since experts can't make laws and mandates). It's an successful way to prevent panic.
No backlash from me

That is very obvious to me, just look at the masks they allowed. A 'sheet of toilet paper' is about the criteria they have, at least in Holland people were advised to knit or stitch their own mask.

I'm not an expert on virus, but have good common sense. Stitch your own mask gives false trust of protection, hence even extra dangerous, and spreading covid much more. Aht least without mask you face reality (and know you are not protected, hence stick to useful other tricks

I don't know where I got it from but I've always been skeptical of cult-like thinking, propaganda, things like that. Even when I was at a Buddhist organization where they evangelize quite heavily for the good of humanity rubbed me wrong.
:). I understand. Others imposing stuff is high on my "to avoid list"

Now if they said cult-like thinking and propaganda is appropriate for this situation, then I'd disagree but at least they were honest. But to reject it based on who said it and why as misinformation and so forth sounds TO ME like denial or blindness.
Exactly. Honesty is key in all of this. Especially as it is a longterm thing AND news is known to love to twist facts, hence chaos will be the obvious result
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
I agree. Censorship is just as bad as COVID. Even social media sites just as much. Ive personally never witness such a thing this drastic. I knew they censor some inappropriate things like promotion of suicide, but I wonder if it's actually the social media, for example, heads decision or would they loose out on members if they let both sides talk. I don't know.

I thought china was very strict on their censorship especially with internet material?

I read anything that badmouth their government are censored.

In CHINA If you had mouth the government you are spare parts.
You would be stupid to even contemplate doing so.

However in the west censorship is nothing like as bad or dangerous as Covid..
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
In CHINA If you had mouth the government you are spare parts.
You would be stupid to even contemplate doing so.

However in the west censorship is nothing like as bad or dangerous as Covid..

We'd probably address COVID situation without censorship of important and factual information that doesn't heavily highlight things like mask and vaccines. That and just neutral information that doesn't take sides-that wouldn't advocate for or against vaccines (for example) but share pros and cons and let the public decide how they want to use the information.

Public control is just as important as a world crisis insofar without control and keeping people well-informed (as already started) riots and things like that happen. Recently, there was a bomb threat at the library of congress here in DC. Excusing it with "we're saving millions" is not really thinking long-term and definitely putting deaths over the living while trying to save lives at the same time.

I don't know. It's a mess.
 
We'd probably address COVID situation without censorship of important and factual information that doesn't heavily highlight things like mask and vaccines. That and just neutral information that doesn't take sides-that wouldn't advocate for or against vaccines (for example) but share pros and cons and let the public decide how they want to use the information.

Public control is just as important as a world crisis insofar without control and keeping people well-informed (as already started) riots and things like that happen. Recently, there was a bomb threat at the library of congress here in DC. Excusing it with "we're saving millions" is not really thinking long-term and definitely putting deaths over the living while trying to save lives at the same time.

I don't know. It's a mess.
What’s your recommendation on getting vaccinated? Can you show me the pros and cons?
As far as the vaccine it’s too early to tell and we don’t know for sure the sides effects, long or short term or if they will make a difference because you still can get Covid and need boosters, but if you want to travel, be part of the in crowd and not called selfish and things like this then get vaccinated, cause it really isn’t about your health.
 
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