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Darwin's Illusion

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have decided that radiocarbon dating or other means of dating fossils and cave paintings are not correctly assessed.
This is necessary to untether you from physical reality (evidence). It frees you to believe whatever you prefer. The strict empiricist won't do that. He understands that opens a door he doesn't want to walk through. He doesn't want to believe anything that isn't demonstrably correct, and belief by faith is the most direct route to that outcome. One is free to believe whatever he likes if he allows himself to reject ideas just because they contradict cherished beliefs. Hopefully, you see that you can believe anything at all by that method, and why I call that untethered to physical reality.
I have not rejected science.
You reject science selectively.
I respect and love Jesus first.
Over country. You probably see that as a virtue, but I see it as a conflict of interest. Christianity and Americanism are not compatible. The church is forever trying to turn the government into a theocracy. Christians voted in large numbers for Trump in the hope that he would find judges to trash church-state separation and recriminalize abortion if possible. There is nothing democratic about the church or the model of God in heaven. The Ten Commandments are in conflict with the US Constitution, which recognizes no gods or state religion, and offers freedom from religion as an acceptable choice. It's a tension that never goes away and continually threatens Americanism.
The reason I entered into these discussions is to see how those think and reason who believe in the process of evolution.
That's a good reason. That's a large part of why I'm here as well, although in reverse. I'm looking at how faith modifies thought. Have you learned anything? You would do well to leave this discussion understanding that we don't expect to see chimps produce anything but more chimps for millennia, and stop offering that as a counterargument to evolution, which predicts that you will never see any creature change into any other "kind," and so is not a counterargument to the theory. You would also do well to abandon the word proof in this context. It's not the standard for belief in either the scientific community, which uses evidence to decide what is true about the world but not proof, nor for the religious community, which uses neither, but instead relies on faith.
"We evolved along with chimpanzees"?? Got any backup for that belief?
The body of evidence for the theory supports that contention beyond reasonable doubt. We are still evolving, as are the chimps.
chimpanzees are still chimpanzees and bugs are still bugs.
Of course they are, just as the theory predicts and requires.

I reject certain aspects of the dating process and its application. I do not reject all science.
Yes, you reject anything that is in conflict with your faith-based beliefs, and probably don't pay attention to the rest of science. I'm guessing that you have no position on emission and absorption spectra or the Krebs cycle.
I understand they look at bones.
Paleontology is just one of several fields of science supplying the evidence for evolution:

[1] Evolution reproduced in the lab or documented in nature: fruit flies that lost the ability to interbreed and became two new species, multiple species of the house mouse unique to the Faeroe Islands occurring within 250 years of introduction of a founder species, five new species of cichlid fishes forming in a single lake within 4,000 years of introduction of a parent species, etc. Evidence of speciation:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html

[2] Fossil evidence - The way fossils appear in the layers of rock always corresponds to relative development, constant discovery of new transitional forms. E.g. reptile-birds, reptile-mammals, legged whales, etc

[3] Genetic evidence - chromosome homologies, common genes, nested ERVs,

[4] Molecular evidence - a common genetic code, molecular clock evidence in the DNA which timeline corresponds with fossils and radiometric dating data.

[5] Evidence from proteins - common biological pathways (Krebs cycle), common A, B, O blood typing and the Rh factor and the insulin molecule, and the proteins responsible for color vision (same as those found in Old World primates but absent in New World primates and from all other mammals.

[6] Vestigial and atavistic organs - E.g. Leg and pelvic bones in whales, dolphins, and some snakes; unused eyes in blind cave fish.

[7] Embryology - E.g. Legs on dolphin embryos; tails and gill folds on human embryos; snake embryos with legs; marsupial eggshell and carnuncle.

[8] Biogeography - The current and past distribution of species on the planet. E.g. almost all marsupials and almost no placental mammals are native to Australia ... the result of speciation in a geographically isolated area. Also, ring species.

[9] Homology - E.g. the same bones in the same relative positions in primate hands, bat wings, bird wings, mammals, whale and penguin flippers, pterosaur wings, horse legs, the forelimbs of moles, and webbed amphibian legs.

[10] Bacteriology, virology, immunology, pest-control - the way that bacteria evolve in response to antibiotics and viruses evolve to require new vaccines
I have seen the thoughts regarding fish becoming landrovers. There is no scientific proof even if you call floppy fish evidence.
Here's a chance for improvement: ditch the word proof. And yes, we have ample evidence that tetrapods emerged from finned fish about 400 million years ago.

There is no proof that gorillas, humans, chimpanzees and whatever else they say emerged (evolved) from a "Common Ancestor,"
You know better than to write something like this again, right? It's really a giant stamp on the forehead saying that one is scientifically unsophisticated - not a help when trying to argue the topic.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
It was coined by Herbert Spencer and to the extent that Darwin talked about it, he argued against it as he didn't deem it appropriate.

And despite the fact I typed out the quote from Darwin saying survival of the fittest is the most apt terminology you choose to remain ignorant.


edited to added also provided a link, twice.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
I don't know why you think that all change is sudden, just that you do.

All observation and every experiment shows sudden change. You see gradual change in the fossil record but that IS NOT a proper scientific observation; it is a conclusion.

You said that all change is sudden and even mentioned galaxies colliding and merging, and I falsify that by noting that that process occurs over millions of years.

Sigh. I not only have to invent the counterargument I have to repeat why it's not really relevant. Galaxies exist for millions of times longer than they collide. You must extend your time-line to view some things in the proper context.

Only I am debating by this definition - rebutting claims. I can't make you be clear, and I can't make you address my arguments beyond rejecting them out of hand without explanation, so I can't engage in such a discussion with you

What argument is that?! I respond to every argument and have to invent counterarguments too.

I wrote, "Reality is not all that complex, at least not learning effective rules for navigating our world." I like answers that work, that allow me to accurately anticipate outcomes.

I do nor reject any science. I don't believe in scientism and I do reject that. I value expert opinion and go to a doctor when I get sick but I do not believe expert opinion is necessarily more accurate than the opinion of the ignorant. I see a doctor for his knowledge and experience and go along with his opinions unless they conflict with my own.

My experience is that if I investigate something it has never taken too long before I disagree with some expert opinion. Worshipping Peers and their opinions is highly dangerous to the individual and the commonweal.

This has been my approach to navigating life. What is true about the world, how does it work, and what circumstances are desirable so that the knowledge of how things work and what outcomes can be expected in various circumstances can be applied to curating and managing that conscious experience.

I never suggested you're doing anything wrong. I've specifically said many times, "to each his own'.

What works for you didn't work for me so I changed. I changed to something to better utilize my assets and suit my proclivities. I have no real regrets and I knew from the beginning it would make me different than most people. It's been fun and I feel I've had an impact (positive) in the world just about everywhere I go. To each his own.

The criticism I see most is that my thinking is myopic - too limiting, too materialistic.

NOT from me you haven't. I rarely speak about personal things and I still specifically said you were the opposite.

That I think you are wrong about "Evolution" is a separate topic.

Is there a complaint there or just an observation? Also, most of the human race is not aware of what the vanguard in science and philosophy concern themselves with. It's common knowledge that with learning comes the understanding of how much more there is to learn that we know we don't know yet, and that there are also unknown unknowns yet to be discovered.

Yes. It's a complaint. I believe ancient science did much better but then in those days ALL people were scientists and/ or metaphysicians.

I'm not sure what you mean here. These are the kinds of comments that benefit from fleshing them out with more words. But the scientific community is busy with multiple challenges and will be for the foreseeable future.

What I mean is that that we are reaching the limitations of the tool we call "science". Progress is not going to stop any time soon because thee will be new tools and new technology like LISA. There will be new materials and new ways to put them together. Within 25 years I'd expect to have materials a thousand times stronger than anything we have today made of woven molecules. There's plenty of scientific change coming for a very long time. The problem is that theory must advance or technology will catch it and I foresee theory grinding to a near halt over the next half a century.

I believe this can only be avoided by finding a means to use experimental science and natural science in tandem. I believe computers are easily capable of this right now and from this machine intelligence will spring.



Of course, unlike scientismists, I can be wrong about anything. I'm the only person in the entire world that can be wrong and there is absolutely unanimous agreement on this fact.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
That is just one among many that need to be explained.

Maybe is shift work for yards.
It is certainly not standard geological jargon, so the meaning
in creohands is vague and yet, yet importunate.

Like the phrase " used of god" as in " he was a man used of God to..."

onlybwith god is one used "of".

Nobody can explain it yet like " soil shifts" ( and thus disproves
evolution, we just know its a term heavy laden with some deep meaning.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Are you a nuclear physicist?
Interestingly enough, it gets kind of complicated and there are various respected sources showing why more recent studies explain why radiometric carbon dating estimates can be wrong.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Some seeds germinate in 1-2 weeks. Some take 2-4 weeks. Some can take months to germinate. Not the same for each. Not sudden.

The life spans of different animals are not sudden or the same. These are averages. The house mouse about a year. The pigeon (not the chess-playing kind) about 5 years. Channel catfish, 15 years. The domestic dog, about 13 years. The horse, about 25 years. Burmese python, about 30 years. The alligator, about 50 years. Tuatara, 60 years. Human, 79 years. Geoduck, about 140 years. The bowhead whale, about 200 years. The barrel sponge, 2300 years. Black coral 4300 years. Not the same. Not sudden.

Chemical kinetics is the study of the rates of chemical reactions and how they differ. If everything were sudden and the same, then there would be nothing to study. Obviously, that is not true and this discipline is a field of study in chemistry and biochemistry.

Just a few examples of the many, many, many, many, many examples how all events in all living things are not sudden that I and many others have posted on here only to have them ignored. And then have the empty claim that every change in living things is sudden. A claim that has no basis, no experiment and no evidence to support it.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
It is certainly not standard geological jargon, so the meaning
in creohands is vague and yet, yet importunate.

Like the phrase " used of god" as in " he was a man used of God to..."

onlybwith god is one used "of".

Nobody can explain it yet like " soil shifts" ( and thus disproves
evolution, we just know its a term heavy laden with some deep meaning.
It is like X remains X. It is easy to repeat, but doesn't explain anything. Doesn't refute anything. Does really say anything. Just words repeated.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
It is certainly not standard geological jargon, so the meaning
in creohands is vague and yet, yet importunate.

Like the phrase " used of god" as in " he was a man used of God to..."

onlybwith god is one used "of".

Nobody can explain it yet like " soil shifts" ( and thus disproves
evolution, we just know its a term heavy laden with some deep meaning.
It must be. Meaning so heavy it has sunk out of my reach.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That depends. Scientists love clarity. "Proved" has more than one meaning. There are ways to "prove" things mathematically. But those proof often have little to do with reality. Then there is the legal standard of "Proven beyond a reasonable doubt". Evolution has easily met that standard. It is easy to show that all of your objections are unreasonable.

And one has to lie to deny that evolution has endless scientific evidence for it. Refusing to learn an easy concept is no longer a valid excuse.
I have been reading comments about the inaccuracies of radiocarbon dating, due in part to shifting of soil as well as presuming dates beyond the 50,000 year estimate of various bone artifacts such as dinosaurs going way beyond that. I really appreciate the discussions here about the scientific method and what the formula is. At least with polio vaccines, I believe it's been proved that the vaccines and research work, are valid.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
It is interesting that some wood boring beetles have emerged as adults from furniture decades after the egg that they came from was laid in the tree that the furniture was made from. Instances from furniture ranging in age from 40-51 years have been recorded.

Not sudden.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Change in location is a change in a living thing.

A monarch butterfly changes its location from the northern part of its range to Mexico, about 3,000 miles, in 2 months.

Not sudden.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It is interesting that some wood boring beetles have emerged as adults from furniture decades after the egg that they came from was laid in the tree that the furniture was made from. Instances from furniture ranging in age from 40-51 years have been recorded.

Not sudden.
Yes, that is interesting.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Lake Victoria in Africa is around 15,000 years old. It is home to as many as 700 endemic species of cichlid fish. Not only that, but there are several endemic genera. So not only did these species evolve in 15,000 years, but so did a number of new genera. Some of the fastest evolution so far recorded, but...you guessed it...Not Sudden.

And this is a twofer, since creationists deny that evolution at the scale of species and above can occur. Well, here is the evidence that it did.
 
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