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Darwin's Illusion

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I've done this one before, but it was ignored then. Do you think it will be ignored now? I do.

Going from egg to adult (life cycle) in an insect is change in a living thing.

The life cycle of the annual cicada is 3-5 years. The life cycle of the species Magicicada tredecassini is 13 years. The life cycle of Magicicada cassini is 17 years.

Not Sudden. None of them.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
A common measure of human life expectancy is life expectancy at birth (LEB). The LEB has varied over time and varies with the population examined and the conditions in which those populations exist.

In the Bronze Age, LEB was about 26 years. In modern times the global LEB is a bout 67 years. LEB figures from Africa can be around 50 years. That of Japan is almost 85 years.

The greatest verified age of a person is that of a woman from France that lived over 122 years of age.

Lots of change in a particular group of living things over time and by location. All different, Not Sudden.

A person can make a hobby out of all the difference and changes in living things that are...NOT SUDDEN. There are just so many examples.

Edit: I forgot. Change in the LEB of Homo omnisciencis and Homo circularis rationatio. Null. These are made up and do not exist for anything to be recorded about them.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
There are people that seem to believe in some very erroneous ideas like all change in living things is sudden, but just from these few examples I have posted, you can see that belief is wrong and contradicts the evidence from observation, experiment and just common sense.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Change in the fossil record is observed. Change in environment is observed. Change in living things is observed. These changes vary in rate from the sudden to the incredibly long. Change observed in the fossil record is gradual and occurs over long periods of time.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
There are people that seem to believe in some very erroneous ideas like all change in living things is sudden, but just from these few examples I have posted, you can see that belief is wrong and contradicts the evidence from observation, experiment and just common sense.

You're supporting my theory!

I have no time now so let me just point out that a seed was found in a tomb in Egypt that was about 4500 years old and germinated! Its parent came into existence suddenly, created the seed suddenly, and then died suddenly. The seed laid dormant for a very long time and when conditions were right it sprouted suddenly.

All observed change in all life at all levels and of all types is sudden.

All observed change in reality is also sudden if you look at it from a proper perspective.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I have no time, so let me just point out that the oldest recorded seed ever found and germinated was a date palm seed found in Israel that was about 2,000 years old. The previous record was for a 700 year old Lotus seed found in China.

700 year and 2,000 years are not sudden. The germination of these seeds was not sudden. The observation that all change in living things is not sudden holds as a fact.

https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/sciadv.aax0384
 
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Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
All observation and experiment demonstrate that all change in all living things is not sudden.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Here is a report of experiments showing that storage (change in time of living things) of seeds still resulted in viable seed from a number of different plant species could still germinate.
https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/jrm/article/viewFile/6186/5796

Not Sudden.

No one has to use semantics and spurious claims that the parent plants suddenly popped into existence and that the germination of the seed was sudden. That germination is not sudden has already been supported in previous posts.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I have been reading comments about the inaccuracies of radiocarbon dating, due in part to shifting of soil as well as presuming dates beyond the 50,000 year estimate of various bone artifacts such as dinosaurs going way beyond that. I really appreciate the discussions here about the scientific method and what the formula is. At least with polio vaccines, I believe it's been proved that the vaccines and research work, are valid.
What was your source? Have you thought that they may have lied to you?

There is a right way and a wrong way to use almost any tool. If one is ignorant one can easily get wrong answers.

For example no one uses C14 dating to date sea life. The reason is that carbon in sea life does not come directly from the atmosphere. It can be in the water for hundreds of years or more. So we do not date clam shells, seals, or anything else like that. If your source mentioned those without an explanation it means that you used a lying source.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Interestingly enough, it gets kind of complicated and there are various respected sources showing why more recent studies explain why radiometric carbon dating estimates can be wrong.
Link them. And also no one uses carbon dating for geology. Or evolution. Why would you?
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Rate of appearance of empty claims about all change in living things being sudden: Those were sudden.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Link them. And also no one uses carbon dating for geology. Or evolution. Why would you?
Most of the arguments used to support the failure of radiometric dating use inappropriate tests and are usually not corroborated with valid alternative methodologies.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
What was your source? Have you thought that they may have lied to you?

There is a right way and a wrong way to use almost any tool. If one is ignorant one can easily get wrong answers.

For example no one uses C14 dating to date sea life. The reason is that carbon in sea life does not come directly from the atmosphere. It can be in the water for hundreds of years or more. So we do not date clam shells, seals, or anything else like that. If your source mentioned those without an explanation it means that you used a lying source.
My guess is the source is some clickbait or popularized article that is pretty cavalier with the facts. And probably even that wasn't really understood.

Or maybe some biased creationist "study" that is so full of holes, you could put it on bread with a slice of ham.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Most of the arguments used to support the failure of radiometric dating use inappropriate tests and are usually not corroborated with valid alternative methodologies.
Or,, like in Kent Hovind's arguments about how carbon 14 does not work because of sea life, he had to rely on papers that explained why C114 cannot be used in sea life. There is even a name for the problem. It is called the reservoir effect. It is almost as if someone bought a toaster and did not read the instruction manual and tires to sue the company because it almost electrocuted him in the tub. One needs to "read the user manual" first.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Or,, like in Kent Hovind's arguments about how carbon 14 does not work because of sea life, he had to rely on papers that explained why C114 cannot be used in sea life. There is even a name for the problem. It is called the reservoir effect. It is almost as if someone bought a toaster and did not read the instruction manual and tires to sue the company because it almost electrocuted him in the tub. One needs to "read the user manual" first.
Or like how someone claims that seeds appear on plants suddenly, but any farmer can explain how that is nonsense and has the fields full of crops to back it up.

You gotta love the fan fiction that creationists employ as support, but at least Kent tried. Some of them don't even do that and rely on semantics, naysaying, word games and nonsense.

Edit: And we mustn't forget, moving the goal posts. That is top support for erroneous ideas.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
And despite the fact I typed out the quote from Darwin saying survival of the fittest is the most apt terminology you choose to remain ignorant.


edited to added also provided a link, twice.
I'm not aware of that quote and will not be hunting it down in a 240+ page thread.
What I read about it is that Darwin considered it a proper way of expressing natural selection, while also warning it could be misinterpreted by laypeople who would understand "fit" to mean "stronger, faster, more robust, etc". While "fit" in this context merely meant "better adapted to the immediate habitat", in all its aspects.


Anyhow, not that it matters much though, what Darwin did or didn't say about it.
Darwin is not some infallible person who's words are "holy" or what-not.
Darwin was wrong about a great many things (and spot on correct about many others, including the crux of it all: adaption followed by selection) and his original ideas are terribly outdated.

So if we are going to discuss evolution theory, Darwin's name should barely come up except maybe as a footnote.
The 200-year old version of the theory matters little to that conversation. What matters is the current incarnation, which is the original expanded with all the knowledge that's been uncovered the past 2 centuries.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
So if we are going to discuss evolution theory, Darwin's name should barely come up except maybe as a footnote.
The 200-year old version of the theory matters little to that conversation. What matters is the current incarnation, which is the original expanded with all the knowledge that's been uncovered the past 2 centuries.

I'm in general agreement.

However I believe the current theory still needs a lot of tweaking and cause/ nature of the mechanism of change is seen from a very poor perspective.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Interestingly enough, it gets kind of complicated and there are various respected sources showing why more recent studies explain why radiometric carbon dating estimates can be wrong.
You didn't answer my question.

Also, C-14 testing always needs to be adjusted, and tree rings are often the solution for doing that even if it's fossilized.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is like X remains X. It is easy to repeat, but doesn't explain anything. Doesn't refute anything. Does really say anything. Just words repeated.
But do you find value there anyway? I do. I've mentioned this idea of a cognitive equivalent to empathy, where one is trying to think another's thoughts with him rather than try to feel his feelings with him and try to imagine what must be the case in that head for those words to make sense. It becomes increasingly difficult the more different a person's thinking is.

You might have noticed that I refer to rebuttal, debate, and dialectic a lot, which is relatively recent insight that comes from recognizing at last only attempts at falsifying arguments advance understanding, and that all other forms of dissent are impotent. That idea, which was probably already latent knowledge, is now understood explicitly, which matters regarding future thought and which ideas come to mind.

Also, I believe that I've acquired some insights on Dunning-Kruger syndrome. We see living examples of it here, and what I've discovered is not that its victims think that there is a higher level of thinking that they've also achieved, which is what saying that they have a false sense of their own ability seems to imply, but rather, that they are unaware that there is a higher level of thinking, and that all beliefs are guesses like their own, since, lacking the ability to generate sound conclusions from evidence intellectually, all beliefs are guesses. I say intellectually to distinguish these conclusions from those arrived at using passive induction - the kind of things we all learn through experience rather than contemplation. They do that fine, which is why they can learn to drive a car or build a house, but not to recognize or make a sound argument explicitly.

Anyway, I guess that I never get tired of these discussions for those kinds of reasons.
All observed change in all life at all levels and of all types is sudden.
In keeping with what I just wrote above, I've decided that by change, you must mean instantaneous change, or the smallest change perceptible. You don't recognize the accumulation of these changes over longer durations as changes, but as many sudden changes. That's an idiosyncratic understanding of what the word means, but if it's YOUR understanding, what you say now makes sense. I can now say that if I held that same belief, I might make the same comments about all change being sudden.

But if I did, I would also know that that was not what others meant when they referred to change, and explain that - I don't consider the evolution of man from his last common ancestor with the chimps a change, but a series of nearly instantaneous changes, and there would not be days of confusion from people trying to make sense of your words.

Does that resonate with you at all?
I believe the current theory still needs a lot of tweaking and cause/ nature of the mechanism of change is seen from a very poor perspective.
Yes, so you've said, but not why you think that.

If you don't mind my discussing you like an object of study, I ask myself why he keeps making these kinds of statements even after being told that they are ineffective and what would be effective instead - the identification of specific problem that support that conclusion, and an explanation of why you see them as problems and how your revision might remedy them. So why do you keep doing this? What must be true to you but not me that keeps you on that path? Well, if I didn't care if I convinced others but just wanted to post anyway, I guess I might do that, but I don't get that form you. You seem to want others to see what you see. Could it be that you don't understand what is being asked of you? Maybe, but you ought to have a sense that you're not meeting those requirements and explain why you think you needn't, but you don't acknowledge this gap in your writing.

Anyway, I have no answer here. I don't see why you persist like this or how it serves you. Here's another insight this activity has given me: I probably never will. I would need you to explain your thinking and your thoughts on why you choose this path, and in my experience, that doesn't happen. Maybe you and I can change that this time. I'd need you to be on board, to understand what I'm asking, and help me understand your choices.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
You didn't answer my question.

Also, C-14 testing always needs to be adjusted, and tree rings are often the solution for doing that even if it's fossilized.
Results can be wrong. A calculator or a bathroom scale can
through damage or misuse give wrong results.

That says nothing about some fatal issue in the
concept of multiplying numbers, as with calculator,
or determining weight with a scale. Or radiometric
dating.

" Can be wrong" is a phony objection to radiometric dating,
employed by people who amusingly think they personally
are incapable of being wrong.

Not when it comes to what they decide to Believe.

Reference for dating with fossil tree rings-?
 
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