Death being final degrades and insults our humanity

[Milton Platt]

The idea of the afterlife is so important to me since I want a personal private life all to myself where I can be happy all I want and get whatever I want. That is the only good thing in life to me. I don't care about the personal opinions of others who say that this is childish, I need to grow up, etc. We are talking about me as a human being here and if I am just biological material here for a short while only to forever decay when I die and not live on in an eternal blissful afterlife, then that is treating me like I am nothing more than a biological organism/machine or some sort of scrap material that will just break down, die, and decay one day.

That would be utterly insulting and degrading of me as a human being for such a treatment to be given to me. I just don't understand how nonbelievers think otherwise. Imagine how the Jews felt in regards to how Hitler treated them. I bet they felt quite insulted and degraded since they were being treated like nothing more than animals and torture devices. The same thing applies to me in a situation where death is final. If death really is final, then I would feel quite insulted and degraded as well since that is treating me like I am nothing more than something to be tossed and thrown away for good like a rotting and decaying piece of meat.

I will apply this concept to religious believers as well. If there is a God out there such as the God portrayed by fundamentalist Christianity, then that would be a far worse treatment of me. That would be treating me like a slave who is expected to serve and dedicate my life to God or burn forever in a lake of fire. It would be an even worse treatment than Hitler, in my opinion. But, at the same time, death being final is also a horrible, tragic, insulting, and degrading treatment as well for all the reasons I've just explained. Therefore, that only leaves one option by which I can be treated with dignity and respect.

That would be through the New Age spiritual view which advocates the idea that we are all loved by a God who will not condemn us, send us to hell, or have us simply rot and decay away to where we are nevermore. It is the one world religion that many people are uniting under. I don't have any religious beliefs. I don't believe in a God, an afterlife, and nor do I believe in the idea that once you die, that is it. Therefore, I just don't know what to expect when I die and I really hope it is the case that I do get to live on forever in the eternal blissful afterlife of my dreams.

You have to learn to distinguish what you desire from what actually is.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Like I just explained earlier, it is the treatment I am getting which is insulting and degrading to me as a human being. I am being treated like I am nothing but meat that will just forever rot and decay away one day. In other words, I am being treated like I am nothing more than just some sort of scrap material to just be thrown away for good and that is what I find insulting and degrading of me as well as other kind and innocent people who are also deserving of respect and dignity.

Sorry, but I need you to clarify. Your body is being treated like it contains the nutrients necessary for the continuation of life. Meat rotting enables all of the nutrients in that meat to return to the soil where it provides the elements needed for plants to grow. It's NOT scrape material that's just 'thrown away'. It serves a very specific purpose, the continuation of life. What greater purpose could your decomposing corpse provide than to keep this wonderful thing called 'life' going? What greater respect could you show another person that to allow their remnants to continue on via the cycle of life?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Sorry, but I need you to clarify. Your body is being treated like it contains the nutrients necessary for the continuation of life. Meat rotting enables all of the nutrients in that meat to return to the soil where it provides the elements needed for plants to grow. It's NOT scrape material that's just 'thrown away'. It serves a very specific purpose, the continuation of life. What greater purpose could your decomposing corpse provide than to keep this wonderful thing called 'life' going? What greater respect could you show another person that to allow their remnants to continue on via the cycle of life?

Just the idea that I would be 'thrown away' is insulting and degrading of me as a human being regardless of the things you have described. I realize that I would be providing nutrients and whatnot for other life forms and that would be a good thing for others and for other living things. However, I should not be sacrificed for the sake of others. I should not be left out of the picture because, like I said, it isn't just about others and neither is it just about me either. It is both about me and others. Therefore, this means that I should never be 'thrown away' and neither should other kind innocent people be 'thrown away' either.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Sucks for us, I guess. You can fist fight the grim reaper and his chain holder all day long, if it makes you happy.
I'll just take what's coming and not waste time complaining about things I have absolutely no power to control.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Like I just explained earlier, it is the treatment I am getting which is insulting and degrading to me as a human being. I am being treated like I am nothing but meat that will just forever rot and decay away one day. In other words, I am being treated like I am nothing more than just some sort of scrap material to just be thrown away for good and that is what I find insulting and degrading of me as well as other kind and innocent people who are also deserving of respect and dignity.

Lol@the sense of entitlement on this guy.

Hey bud, this is for you;

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Lol@the sense of entitlement on this guy.

Hey bud, this is for you;

If you are implying that my sense of entitlement is childish, spoiled, and immature, then this is a misconception here. Read my previous posts that talk about freedom and democracy. These posts justify my position regarding how my sense of entitlement really is not childish, spoiled, and immature as people make it out to be. We are entitled to freedom and democracy just as how we are entitled to any other form of respectful and dignified treatment. That would even include us not rotting and decaying away like meat.

 

[Polymath257]

I agree that we can still have value as human beings, but all I am saying is that death being final would be very degrading and insulting of our humanity. The Jews still have value as human beings, but they were still being insulted and degraded by how they were treated by Hitler.

I don't see it as equivalent. I don't see it as an insult or degrading. Instead, I see it as an honor to have the opportunity to learn and share.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

I don't see it as equivalent. I don't see it as an insult or degrading. Instead, I see it as an honor to have the opportunity to learn and share.

If you are still not seeing how, then read all my posts in this topic and it should become clear to you. If it still doesn't become clear to you, then that is just your personal view.

 

[QuestioningMind]

However, I should not be sacrificed for the sake of others.

Why not? How many plants and animals have been 'sacrificed' for the sake of YOU? Why should YOU avoid having to make the same 'sacrifice' that every other living organism must eventually make?

I should not be left out of the picture

You're NOT being left out of the picture. The cells that once made up YOU will continue on in the cycle that is life. If for some reason your body DIDN'T rot and contribute nutrients for additional life THEN you'd be left out of the picture.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Why not? How many plants and animals have been 'sacrificed' for the sake of YOU? Why should YOU avoid having to make the same 'sacrifice' that every other living organism must eventually make?

You have taken what I said there out of context because I later go on to explain in that post that it is not all about others and me sacrificing myself for them and neither is it all about me and them sacrificing themselves for me. It is about both of us. We should all never just be thrown away and rot away. In other words, this whole cycle of life is an abomination to me and it is instead immortality and eternal bliss which would be the true blessing if it were real. That way, nobody gets sacrificed here. We all get the respected and dignified treatment of being immortal blissful beings if we want to.

You're NOT being left out of the picture. The cells that once made up YOU will continue on in the cycle that is life. If for some reason your body DIDN'T rot and contribute nutrients for additional life THEN you'd be left out of the picture.

I still am being left out of the picture here. I no longer get to be alive, I no longer get to be happy anymore, I no longer get to cherish this life anymore, and I no longer get to experience the value and beauty of this life anymore. I am just being thrown away just like that.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

These self-indulgent threads read much less like a desperate cry for help and more like a desperate plea for attention.

I'm sorry, but I see absolutely no value in these threads of yours whatsoever. It's just you ranting about how you see the world, or how you want the world to be, and then completely rebuffing any and all responses that question your attitude or philosophy. If you are interested in seriously considering your position in light of fresh perspectives, and wish to explore these ideas with others, then by all means make a thread about it and do so. But do not make a thread on a public discussion-based forum simply to lay out - in the bluntest and most bafflingly incognizant way possible - your position and then attempt to dismiss or ignore all opinion or discussion on it that dissents from your own.

I will not stroke your ego by continuing to post in these threads, until such a time as you demonstrate a willingness to engage rather than just a willingness to expound and moralize. I'm done with you.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

These self-indulgent threads read much less like a desperate cry for help and more like a desperate plea for attention.

I'm sorry, but I see absolutely no value in these threads of yours whatsoever. It's just you ranting about how you see the world, or how you want the world to be, and then completely rebuffing any and all responses that question your attitude or philosophy. If you are interested in seriously considering your position in light of fresh perspectives, and wish to explore these ideas with others, then by all means make a thread about it and do so. But do not make a thread on a public discussion-based forum simply to lay out - in the bluntest and most bafflingly incognizant way possible - your position and then attempt to dismiss or ignore all opinion or discussion on it that dissents from your own.

I will not stroke your ego by continuing to post in these threads, until such a time as you demonstrate a willingness to engage rather than just a willingness to expound and moralize. I'm done with you.

I understand why you would feel this way. But I put my self indulgent attitude and postings here in the context of others and how they also have the right to be treated with dignity and respect just as how I am also deserving of such treatment. Therefore, I am not solely talking about myself here when I am presenting and engaging in this topic here. I am considering others in the sense that they should also not be treated like rotting meat either where they just get thrown away and forever decay.

 

[james bond]

The idea of the afterlife is so important to me since I want a personal private life all to myself where I can be happy all I want and get whatever I want. That is the only good thing in life to me. I don't care about the personal opinions of others who say that this is childish, I need to grow up, etc. We are talking about me as a human being here and if I am just biological material here for a short while only to forever decay when I die and not live on in an eternal blissful afterlife, then that is treating me like I am nothing more than a biological organism/machine or some sort of scrap material that will just break down, die, and decay one day.

That would be utterly insulting and degrading of me as a human being for such a treatment to be given to me. I just don't understand how nonbelievers think otherwise. Imagine how the Jews felt in regards to how Hitler treated them. I bet they felt quite insulted and degraded since they were being treated like nothing more than animals and torture devices. The same thing applies to me in a situation where death is final. If death really is final, then I would feel quite insulted and degraded as well since that is treating me like I am nothing more than something to be tossed and thrown away for good like a rotting and decaying piece of meat.

I will apply this concept to religious believers as well. If there is a God out there such as the God portrayed by fundamentalist Christianity, then that would be a far worse treatment of me. That would be treating me like a slave who is expected to serve and dedicate my life to God or burn forever in a lake of fire. It would be an even worse treatment than Hitler, in my opinion. But, at the same time, death being final is also a horrible, tragic, insulting, and degrading treatment as well for all the reasons I've just explained. Therefore, that only leaves one option by which I can be treated with dignity and respect.

That would be through the New Age spiritual view which advocates the idea that we are all loved by a God who will not condemn us, send us to hell, or have us simply rot and decay away to where we are nevermore. It is the one world religion that many people are uniting under. I don't have any religious beliefs. I don't believe in a God, an afterlife, and nor do I believe in the idea that once you die, that is it. Therefore, I just don't know what to expect when I die and I really hope it is the case that I do get to live on forever in the eternal blissful afterlife of my dreams.

I guess when I read the title, I translated it in my mind as:

Failure isn't final nor does it degrade and insult our humanity.

I would think this type of thinking does more to cheer us up and continue living the best lives we can than thinking about what kind of afterlife I am going to enjoy.

What's difficult to predict about a point in our future, even after death, is we do not know what's going to happen to us before then. For example, I work hard to save money to take my family of four on a first-class trip to Disney World. That is what I wish to see next year. However, my son gets into trouble with the law and we have to spend the money to bail him out and for an attorney. Thus, our wonderful trip plans have to be postponed or canceled.

There probably is no path left untaken in the lives that we lead. Just that some paths are traveled less frequently than others. Thus, we make use of what talent God has given us to the best of our ability and make the best choices we can for ourselves, and then leave it to God that we receive good blessings and are able to accomplish our goals and endeavors.

While having a nice afterlife is a worthy goal, I'm not sure how one gets to where you want from where you are in life. Thus, I think you have to ask yourself am I on the right path based on the choices that I have made up until this point? If not or you are not unsure, then it may be time to talk with someone else about your life. It usually takes a lot of time and work to get to a lofty place that you seek. It isn't just provided for you or handed to you when others may be more deserving. You have to show that you are the one most deserving such as that promotion at work you have been seeking.

 

[Polymath257]

If you are still not seeing how, then read all my posts in this topic and it should become clear to you. If it still doesn't become clear to you, then that is just your personal view.

And perhaps *your* personal view. You are the one complaining that the fact that we die is an affront. Sorry that the universe doesn't work out the way you want it.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

These self-indulgent threads read much less like a desperate cry for help and more like a desperate plea for attention.

I'm sorry, but I see absolutely no value in these threads of yours whatsoever. It's just you ranting about how you see the world, or how you want the world to be, and then completely rebuffing any and all responses that question your attitude or philosophy. If you are interested in seriously considering your position in light of fresh perspectives, and wish to explore these ideas with others, then by all means make a thread about it and do so. But do not make a thread on a public discussion-based forum simply to lay out - in the bluntest and most bafflingly incognizant way possible - your position and then attempt to dismiss or ignore all opinion or discussion on it that dissents from your own.

I will not stroke your ego by continuing to post in these threads, until such a time as you demonstrate a willingness to engage rather than just a willingness to expound and moralize. I'm done with you.

Actually, let me add one last thing here which is very important for you and others to know. It extends upon my previous reply to you. I would like to say that I am not doing this for attention or to stroke my ego. I have these worldviews that I like to write out and share to my family, my therapist, and to other people. But many people, when they first read these packets, would get the idea that I am childish, spoiled, an ***, and immature. That is why I engage in these sorts of discussions where I rebut everything that others say to me because everything that others are saying to me makes me look like I am someone childish, spoiled, an ***, and immature. Therefore, I am merely trying to eventually reveal to everyone how I am not being childish here.

Once this revelation has been accomplished, then everyone here including my family, therapist, and other people in the world would now cease the name calling and would finally respect my worldviews (values). That is why I would print out this entire topic and the discussion in it and present it to others so they can finally realize that I am not being childish here, trying to give others a hard time, or throwing tantrums like a child. I am also living my life the best I can. However, I like to share my personal views. But in order to clear up any misconceptions such as that I am childish and spoiled, then I need to have this sort of discussion and present it to others.

Lastly, I would like to add that if a slave had a sense of entitlement for his/her freedom, that would not make him/her childish and spoiled. He/she has every right to his/her freedom. In that same sense, I am entitled to my personal values. Namely, my good feelings and an eternal blissful afterlife. If anybody were to frown upon, name call, or impose upon this slave's entitlement, then that would be just as bad as frowning upon, name calling, and imposing upon my values. I am glad and I do honor those who have sacrificed themselves on the battlefield for my freedom. That does make them friends to me.

However, when my values are being imposed upon, then that is when you have become my enemy. As long as you do not respect and show dignity towards my personal values, then you have become my enemy. I am vehemently entitled to my personal values and I will not put up with anybody who goes against them and disrespects them. I will give another example here. I am someone who just lives to be happy, to enjoy my life, and to look forward to the idea of the eternal blissful afterlife of my dreams. These are my personal values. I do not wish to dedicate and serve my life to others since that is an enslaving chore to me.

Serving and dedicating your life to others is no different than any other career such as being a dentist, a teacher, or a construction worker. If a person has no interest in those careers, then he/she should not be expected to pursue them. He/she has every justified reason to be entitled to his/her own personal career and life. In that same sense, I have every justified reason to be entitled to the personal life that I value. If I don't want to give up my own happiness and serve my life for the sake of others, then I should not be expected to. But an event where I am expected to sacrifice my very being entirely would be an even worse situation here.

Let's pretend that I had the choice to either be an eternal blissful being or to sacrifice myself entirely for the sake of others since others have sacrificed themselves for me, then this is the same situation as before where a person should not be expected to pursue a career that he/she does not want to pursue. However, it is an even worse situation here because I would be expected to give up my entire being and all my happiness. Now, this is something I will absolutely not stand for at all. This is a situation that would undoubtedly make anyone my worst enemy if they pressured me, frowned upon me, name called me, and expected me to go through with this situation. Death being final would, therefore, be the worst situation to me since it would be the greatest threat to my values.

 

[Windwalker]

I don't believe in a God, an afterlife, and nor do I believe in the idea that once you die, that is it. Therefore, I just don't know what to expect when I die and I really hope it is the case that I do get to live on forever in the eternal blissful afterlife of my dreams.

I think you might do well to look into Buddhism. One thing I hear you doing is what is creating this sense of indignity about death for you. You have too much of an identification of yourself as this person desiring this or that to make you happy, and image if you can just preserve that person you imagine you are, then life will have meaning to you.

If however you start to examine that person that is doing all this seeking and wanting and hoping, and learn to relax that some and let that go, what you are seeking will actually come and you won't be so concerned about finding something after this life. You will find that Eternal bliss here and now. As I always say, there is no "afterlife", there is only Life, and that is always, always in the present now. It's not "tomorrow". Tomorrow doesn't exist. When you get there, it will be "now" as well. So find "now", and you will find Eternal Life. And when you find That, this body you love will be celebrated in all its changes, including its death. Don't cling to your ego. It only leads to not being present and true self-knowledge.

 

[McBell]

I am entitled to dignity and respect just as any other kind and innocent human being out there.

again, says who?
You keep repeating this bold empty claim and have not yet substantiated who/what has given you your self proclaimed entitlement.

I do not see how that is childish, spoiled, and immature.

It is childish and immature simply because you have not shown it is anything other than you stomping your foot and pouting about how life is unfair.

This means that I would be entitled to something that doesn't exist. However, I think this is still a valid position to take because, if freedom and democracy could never exist, slaves would still be entitled to it anyway.

Again you go on and on about entitlement without ever revealing where said entitlement comes from.

Unfortunately, "From Empathy" does nothing to explain it.

If you are asking where does this entitlement come from if we live in a universe that has no grand meaning, then the answer here would be that, just as how we can create our own personal meaning despite this universe having no meaning in the grand sense, we as human beings create a sense of entitlement towards ourselves and others since we think that other kind and innocent people are deserving of dignity and respect just as how we are deserving of dignity and respect. Again, if this entitlement never existed, then we would never have democracy and freedom. Soldiers would have never fought for our freedom and neither would they have fought for their own freedom.

So basically, in a nut shell, you are upset because some self serving made up to make people feel better nonsense has not made you feel better.
And to make it even worse, you claim it is not immature or childish.....

 

[McBell]

Actually, let me add one last thing here which is very important for you and others to know. It extends upon my previous reply to you. I would like to say that I am not doing this for attention or to stroke my ego. I have these worldviews that I like to write out and share to my family, my therapist, and to other people. But many people, when they first read these packets, would get the idea that I am childish, spoiled, an ***, and immature. That is why I engage in these sorts of discussions where I rebut everything that others say to me because everything that others are saying to me makes me look like I am someone childish, spoiled, an ***, and immature. Therefore, I am merely trying to eventually reveal to everyone how I am not being childish here.

I understand it is important to you to be taken seriously.
Problem is that you have done nothing but reinforce the childishness and immaturity portrait you paint of yourself.

Once this revelation has been accomplished,

Bold empty claims do create or support a revelation.
They merely reinforce the childish, immature portrait you paint of yourself.

then everyone here including my family, therapist, and other people in the world would now cease the name calling and would finally respect my worldviews (values).

Rather difficult to respect someone whose whole thread has been nothing more than them whining about not being childish whilst proving their childishness

That is why I would print out this entire topic and the discussion in it and present it to others so they can finally realize that I am not being childish here, trying to give others a hard time, or throwing tantrums like a child. I am also living my life the best I can. However, I like to share my personal views. But in order to clear up any misconceptions such as that I am childish and spoiled, then I need to have this sort of discussion and present it to others.

Lastly, I would like to add that if a slave had a sense of entitlement for his/her freedom, that would not make him/her childish and spoiled. He/she has every right to his/her freedom. In that same sense, I am entitled to my personal values. Namely, my good feelings and an eternal blissful afterlife. If anybody were to frown upon, name call, or impose upon this slave's entitlement, then that would be just as bad as frowning upon, name calling, and imposing upon my values. I am glad and I do honor those who have sacrificed themselves on the battlefield for my freedom. That does make them friends to me.

However, when my values are being imposed upon, then that is when you have become my enemy. As long as you do not respect and show dignity towards my personal values, then you have become my enemy. I am vehemently entitled to my personal values and I will not put up with anybody who goes against them and disrespects them. I will give another example here. I am someone who just lives to be happy, to enjoy my life, and to look forward to the idea of the eternal blissful afterlife of my dreams. These are my personal values. I do not wish to dedicate and serve my life to others since that is an enslaving chore to me.

Serving and dedicating your life to others is no different than any other career such as being a dentist, a teacher, or a construction worker. If a person has no interest in those careers, then he/she should not be expected to pursue them. He/she has every justified reason to be entitled to his/her own personal career and life. In that same sense, I have every justified reason to be entitled to the personal life that I value. If I don't want to give up my own happiness and serve my life for the sake of others, then I should not be expected to. But an event where I am expected to sacrifice my very being entirely would be an even worse situation here.

Let's pretend that I had the choice to either be an eternal blissful being or to sacrifice myself entirely for the sake of others since others have sacrificed themselves for me, then this is the same situation as before where a person should not be expected to pursue a career that he/she does not want to pursue. However, it is an even worse situation here because I would be expected to give up my entire being and all my happiness. Now, this is something I will absolutely not stand for at all. This is a situation that would undoubtedly make anyone my worst enemy if they pressured me, frowned upon me, name called me, and expected me to go through with this situation. Death being final would, therefore, be the worst situation to me since it would be the greatest threat to my values.

yes, you are sticking it to the man.
A really grown up attitude that does not make you look childish, spoiled, or immature...

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

again, says who?
You keep repeating this bold empty claim and have not yet substantiated who/what has given you your self proclaimed entitlement.


It is childish and immature simply because you have not shown it is anything other than you stomping your foot and pouting about how life is unfair.


Again you go on and on about entitlement without ever revealing where said entitlement comes from.

Unfortunately, "From Empathy" does nothing to explain it.


So basically, in a nut shell, you are upset because some self serving made up to make people feel better nonsense has not made you feel better.
And to make it even worse, you claim it is not immature or childish.....

I think this is where we just have to agree to disagree. You think it is immature, spoiled, and childish and I think it is not for all the reasons I have given in this topic. Especially regarding what I said about freedom and democracy. I think my entire position here and all my reasons supporting it is a well justified and validated position and is not the immature and spoiled unjustified position that a little child would take. This might be entirely subjective though. You have your own personal view about me which holds true to you and I have my own personal view which holds true to me. There might be no way of proving which view is the correct one just as how we cannot prove any other philosophical view one has.

I will also add another thing here. Being someone altruistic who dedicates his/her life and serves his/her life to others is not the only way to earn the respect and dignity of others. I am a very responsible adult who takes good care of himself, looks after himself, and works hard for the things he wants and for his own goals and dreams. Therefore, I think people who live for themselves, their own happiness, and the things they want are also deserving of respect and dignity.

I think it is a dishonor to just simply look at someone with a sense of entitlement such as myself who is a mature responsible adult with a lack of respect, dignity, and name calling such as childish, spoiled, immature, etc. Again, I think this is just a whole agree to disagree scenario we have here. There is also the difference between sitting there whining and complaining as opposed to just wanting to talk things out and get things off of your mind. I am doing the latter; not the former. I am merely expressing my personal views and how I feel just like any other philosopher or other human being would. From there, I am at least trying to reason with others so that they cease the name calling and disrespect. I don't think this is childish and immature either to do so.

Lastly, we are just hardwired for the attributes that I have mentioned earlier. We are wired with this sense of entitlement towards ourselves and towards others just as how we are wired to be empathetic towards others. For me and others to somehow suspend this sense of entitlement would be no different than us trying to suspend the empathy we have for others. It's just not going to work since this is something wired into us. We are also hardwired for survival and to want to be happy. That is the reason why you see so many people wanting to be happy, have no misery in their lives, and wanting to live forever in the eternal blissful afterlife of their dreams where they can get anything they want. This is just evolution and natural selection at work here hard wiring our brains.

 

[EverChanging]

Hitler scapegoated, tortured, and murdered millions of people. That is denigrating. Death in itself is a natural process. It is impersonal, not insulting or denigrating, as natural and impersonal as the death of a star.

But even if death is the end of consciousness it is not the end in every sense. It takes all that is to make you. You are the interplay of all the interdependent forces of the universe. The universe is the greater part of you. In some sense it is you. And that is splendid indeed!