death by stoning

[robtex]

I stuck this in the Islam section because I wanted to get a feel on how the Muslims of RF felt about this. I have a number of Islamic friends here in Austin and one of them was telling me a few years back that he saw a woman in his home country stoned to death for the crime of adultry. From what I understand about stoneing to death how it generally works is the offender is put in a sack and than placed in a hole where his/her upper body is sticking out but the legs are buried. I am assuming this is to keep the person form avoiding the rocks.

Than the crowd, which from the mpegs I have seen tend to look more like a mob, rather in a semi-circle or cresant (ironically looking like the symbol of Islam--cresant moon) and pelt the offender(s) with rocks until they die. The indivdual trapped in the hole and arms pinned to their sides by the sack may have at times been in a prision awaiting execution for days or months with little food or water before they are killed.

What I specifcally wanted to inquire about is Islamic RF'ers opinions on this. Do you as muslims condone this meathod of excuction and if so why? If why, why not? Also if why under what conditions specifically? (with examples if possible).

 

[Judgement Day]

[FONT=georgia, arial, tahoma][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma]I found this article on the net, hope it helps.
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[FONT=georgia, arial, tahoma][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma]'Stoning'55[/FONT][/FONT]​

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[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=georgia, arial, tahoma][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma]This is the most severe of all the punishments that exist in Islamic law and, just like the case of treason nowadays under English law56, it is extremely rare in practice as during the last fourteen centuries of Islamic history only "fourteen cases of stoning could hardly be numbered in all that time".57 Considering this extreme rarity, it is totally dishonest and unfair for a critic to single out stoning in order to judge not only the Islamic penal system but also the structure of the entire Islamic law in general as it is done in the rubric of this essay.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=georgia, arial, tahoma][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma]Islamic law aims to ensure the stability of society from its very base - the family - which is the 'nucleus' of society that breeds society's values and holds together the various institutions in society. "The family, is thus, the cradle of the individual and the cornerstone of society"58 In Islam, marriage is not only encouraged but also made obligatory to ensure the continuity of the family "in the interest of the preservation of the human race and the stability of human civilisation".59 Chastity is highly esteemed as a supreme virtue in Islamic societies, though it is not an ideal in the West where immorality is rampant and flirting has become the part and parcel of life.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=georgia, arial, tahoma][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma]In the West, the institution of marriage has significantly declined and nearly half of the marriages end up in divorce. The family has broken down resulting in much tension and the disintegration of other institutions in society and the rate of crime has steadily risen to epidemic proportion. The root 'cause' of all these is zina - the unlawful sexual union between a man and a woman who are not married to each other. Zina is the breach of the greatest 'trust' that a man and a woman can ever have and it leads to disastrous consequences such as breakdown of family ties, depression, domestic violence, child abuse, rape60 and "the AIDS epidemic as a result of promiscuous sexual activity in direct contravention of Divine law".61 That's why John Major's "Back to Basics" campaign is geared toward restoration of family values in order to reduce the crime rate and to maintain social order.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=georgia, arial, tahoma][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma]Zina is the most deadliest of all social crimes and "Islam puts an end to all those factors that 'allure' a man to zina or provide occasions for it"62 The Qur'an condemns zina not with the words "La Tazanu" (Do not commit adultery), as in the Pentateuch "Thou shall not commit adultery", but with the words "La Taqrabuz zina" (Do not go near adultery)...thus blocking all possible 'paths' leading to that act".63 That is why in Islamic societies, there is the segregation of the sexes and the Qur'an orders both men and' women to "lower their gaze" (24:30-1) and for women to wear the Hijab so that "they may be recognised and not molested" (33:59) as it is better for the purification of the hearts of both the sexes (33:53).[/FONT][/FONT]
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[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=georgia, arial, tahoma][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma]To eliminate the root cause of zina, Islam also takes other large scale precautionary and prohibitory measures such as developing God-consciousness, repugnance to sin and the belief in accountability, in every stage of education and it also encourages "early marriage and provides aid from the Public Treasury for those who wish to get married yet cannot afford to do so".64 Islamic societies, for this reason, will also not tolerate lures, mixed parties, pornography and the like which is likely to arouse the passion and disturb family relations because after all, according to the Qur'an, "Man is created weak" (4:28). Islam also very strongly condemns false imputation of zina on another person (qadhf) as the Qur'an declares: "As for those who slander chaste women and produce not four reliable witnesses, then stripe them with eighty lashes and never accept their testimony thereafter" (24:4). Thus slander of this kind is dealt with severely as it seriously affects and damages self-confidence and strains family relations. Islam is never prepared to accept the kind of gossip that are so frequently found in the tabloid papers and the scandal - mongers are punished severely with eighty stripes.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=georgia, arial, tahoma][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma]Despite all the lawful channels provided, if a person transgresses the limits beyond all bounds of decency to commit zina in 'public', then Islam provides severe chastisement to safeguard the family and to save society from corruption and destruction and the punishment acts as a strong 'deterrent' to others. For fornication between unmarried couples the penalty is 100 lashes and for adultery between married couples the penalty is stoning to death (rajm). Even then the haad punishment is not prescribed for the mere commission of zina, but other definitional elements of the crime has to be satisfied; only that kind of adultery is punishable by stoning which is committed intentionally by a free person who is both mature and sane, the accused must be committed to a marriage and has had intercourse with his lawful spouse, the accused must have committed zina voluntarily without compulsion and the act of zina must be attested by four honest, reliable and trustworthy witnesses who must have all seen the act of penetration and all four witnesses must be 'unanimous' in every stage of the act including minute details (if statement of one witness is contradictory to the others, then all four witnesses will be given the haad punishment of 80 stripes for slander)66[/FONT][/FONT]
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[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=georgia, arial, tahoma][FONT=verdana, arial, tahoma]Such is the strict legal technicalities that has to be understood before the haad of stoning is carried out on adulterers and these facts are not highlighted by the West when condemning the punishments for zina. All the above mentioned conditions have to be met, before the haad is imposed which is very hard to do. Especially the question of witnesses is the most difficult aspect of all - the necessity of a minimum of four witnesses, as opposed to other haad offences where two are sufficient, who must be devout (the testimony of a fasiq, a person who lies or breaks any of the major prohibitions of Islam is inadmissible), the unanimous description of the act of penetration and other minute details by all four witnesses and the fear of receiving the haad penalty for slander on the part of witnesses greatly reduce the chance of conviction for the adulterers as the required evidence is "so strong and complete as to be practically impossible to obtain".67 That is why during the life of the prophet, "it was not possible to prove...one single case of adultery" 68 and "during 1400 years of the Muslim era only fourteen cases of adultery have been recorded"69 - hence "punishment by stoning has remained what it always was", harsh in principle, "but extremely rare in practice".70[/FONT][/FONT]
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[robtex]

JD what is your opinion of death by stoning?

 

[TashaN]

Do you as muslims condone this meathod of excuction and if so why?

As a muslim we believe that a married man or woman must be stoned to death as prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" did.

No body like to be stoned this way so a married person will be aware that if he betrayed his spouse so he might be stoned so he/she won't cheat on his/her spouse.

Remember that only the married one must be stoned but not the single. Any single man or woman will get only 100 lashes.

Here for the married one it's so difficult to prove it and this punishment is before everything the law of God and we must accept it because we are muslims and we submitetd our will to God. Also the same punishment was in the Torah and Injil as well.

About the stoning case to show that it's so difficult and people try to avoid it. I'll give you a story of the first stoning ever when a young man came to prophet Mohammed saying that he comitted adultry and he want prophet Mohammed to stone him to death to make him clean from his sin. Prophet Mohammed ignored him 3 times and he was asking his companion if he this young man was drunk or somthing so they went to smell him and he wasn't drunk and he was aware of what he was doing 100%.

After the third time prophet Mohammed told it might not be an adultry but maybe a kiss or a hug, etc. The young man answered clearly with confidence that he did the act which is to enter his male part to the female part of that girl and he did adultry.

Then, prophet Mohammed has no choice but to stone him with the girl he did with because they confessed. Some blood came to the face of one of the people who was stoning them so he insulted them. Prophet Mohammed get angry from him and told him that this guy he repnted to God and if his repentance was spread to the whole world it would be enough for them.

Nevertheless, we have to know that it's not easy to stone a person because they can only stone the married person in 2 cases:

1- If he went to the court and confessed that he/she did it.
2- If 4 persons saw that act excatly when the male part enter to the female part by their own eyes and. So, for instance if a man and woman were naked in a bed but no one saw them doing it so they can't stone them and if anyone claim that he saw them doing it and he didnt support it with more 3 persons with him so the judge must punish him with lashes or a prison for his false saying without backing it up.

Finally, i just want to say that i never heard of people who were stoned to death except 1 time or twice in the media, one in afginstan and one in Nigeria i guess. In the whole islamic history only few people have been stoned through thousands of years and this prove that this punishment is more as a warning not to cheat if you have already a spouse and to keep yourself away from these acts and to work out in the family which is part of the community and there is no point in having sex around and making problems and diseases in the society.

I hope that i answered your question and if you have more questions about it so don't ever hesitate to ask.


Peace ...

 

[BucephalusBB]

Truth, you told us now exactly what you have to do and the reason why. Never did you gave your opinion on it.

 

[ChrisP]

Well, I think by stating that he HAS to do it, that would be his opinion.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Well, I think by stating that he HAS to do it, that would be his opinion.

I would say that is exactly avoiding giving your opinion.

I HAVE to take the trash out. Doesn't mean I like it, but else it gets so smelly..

 

[Melody]

Remember that only the married one must be stoned but not the single. Any single man or woman will get only 100 lashes.

About 3 months ago I saw a program on our local PBS station about a young man and woman who had been stoned in one of the muslim countries. Neither were married. They showed home videos of the young woman who was roughly 19 or so and unmarried. The boy was also unmarried. They were found guilty of adultery. The woman was covered in the full body veil and was stoned. They shot the man in the head.

While looking on the net to see if I could find the report, I came across quite a number of cases where people were condemned to be stoned when they were single. There were quite a number of cases where the women accused a man of rape and sought justice from the court system...which then took the man at his word that he did not (because he had four other men to agree with him) and then sentenced the single woman to be stoned. It was only the backlash of the rest of the world that they backed down and *only* gave her 100 lashes or, in some cases, actually dropped the charges. It was interesting to note as well that in the majority of these cases, it was only the woman who was condemned.

If the law says only the married are stoned, why are they then applying it to single women?

 

[Valjean]

As a muslim we believe that a married man or woman must be stoned to death as prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" did.

No body like to be stoned this way so a married person will be aware that if he betrayed his spouse so he might be stoned so he/she won't cheat on his/her spouse.

Remember that only the married one must be stoned but not the single. Any single man or woman will get only 100 lashes.

Here for the married one it's so difficult to prove it and this punishment is before everything the law of God and we must accept it because we are muslims and we submitetd our will to God. Also the same punishment was in the Torah and Injil as well.

About the stoning case to show that it's so difficult and people try to avoid it. I'll give you a story of the first stoning ever when a young man came to prophet Mohammed saying that he comitted adultry and he want prophet Mohammed to stone him to death to make him clean from his sin. Prophet Mohammed ignored him 3 times and he was asking his companion if he this young man was drunk or somthing so they went to smell him and he wasn't drunk and he was aware of what he was doing 100%.

After the third time prophet Mohammed told it might not be an adultry but maybe a kiss or a hug, etc. The young man answered clearly with confidence that he did the act which is to enter his male part to the female part of that girl and he did adultry.

Then, prophet Mohammed has no choice but to stone him with the girl he did with because they confessed. Some blood came to the face of one of the people who was stoning them so he insulted them. Prophet Mohammed get angry from him and told him that this guy he repnted to God and if his repentance was spread to the whole world it would be enough for them.

Nevertheless, we have to know that it's not easy to stone a person because they can only stone the married person in 2 cases:

1- If he went to the court and confessed that he/she did it.
2- If 4 persons saw that act excatly when the male part enter to the female part by their own eyes and. So, for instance if a man and woman were naked in a bed but no one saw them doing it so they can't stone them and if anyone claim that he saw them doing it and he didnt support it with more 3 persons with him so the judge must punish him with lashes or a prison for his false saying without backing it up.

Finally, i just want to say that i never heard of people who were stoned to death except 1 time or twice in the media, one in afginstan and one in Nigeria i guess. In the whole islamic history only few people have been stoned through thousands of years and this prove that this punishment is more as a warning not to cheat if you have already a spouse and to keep yourself away from these acts and to work out in the family which is part of the community and there is no point in having sex around and making problems and diseases in the society.

I hope that i answered your question and if you have more questions about it so don't ever hesitate to ask.


Peace ...

As I understand it, Peace. Stoning is un-Quranic. Doesn't the Quran call for 100 lashes (24:1-2)? Where does it prescribe stoning?

Stoning is not always reserved for married persons. Wasn't Amina Lawal divorced at the time of her offense?

It you do a quick Google search you'll find that stoning doesn't seem quite as rare as you think, and it doesn't seem to require four eyewitnesses.

 

[ChrisP]

I would say that is exactly avoiding giving your opinion.

I HAVE to take the trash out. Doesn't mean I like it, but else it gets so smelly..

But you do it anyway. Because it has to be done.

 

[BucephalusBB]

But you do it anyway. Because it has to be done.

Yes, but that is far from my opinion. And I wanted to know the opinion, not the task and obligation

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

As I understand it, Peace. Stoning is un-Quranic. Doesn't the Quran call for 100 lashes (24:1-2)? Where does it prescribe stoning?

Stoning is not always reserved for married persons. Wasn't Amina Lawal divorced at the time of her offense?

It you do a quick Google search you'll find that stoning doesn't seem quite as rare as you think, and it doesn't seem to require four eyewitnesses.

Well, if the Quran is based on the Old Testament, there is definitely provisions for stoning.

I'm not Islamic, but I would like to express my opinion on the subject. I think we have made it too easy to back out of marriage, and have turned the wedding vows into a group of empty words. Aside from the reports that Melody shared (unfair, unjust conviction of women) I think the strict rules posted by Judgement Day are acceptable.

But I have had two husbands cheat on me and leave me for the other woman, so my opinion might be a little biased.

 

[robtex]

Moved to general disscussion:

 

[ChrisP]

Yes, but that is far from my opinion. And I wanted to know the opinion, not the task and obligation

I guess that's my point. If I were Islamic I would do it, not because I liked it, but because I was obliged under subjection to my deity.

 

[Valjean]

Well, if the Quran is based on the Old Testament, there is definitely provisions for stoning.

Deuteronomy clearly prescribes stoning, but the Quran does not.

 

[Draka]

A lot of this thread has left me speechless. I can't imagine doing such a thing. There was actually a news report I saw yesterday about adultery and how, if a couple was willing to work through it, it can actually strengthen a marriage. Stating that there is something wrong with the person or the marriage itself if extramarital affairs are being commited. That by examining why the person strayed that there might be revelation as to something wrong between the couple or in the relationship itself.

While I don't believe that is the case for all relationships by far, I do believe that cheating is not near as bad as other things commited in a relationship. My first husband cheated on me. Believe me when I say that that was the least of the problems. Putting to death, by any means, someone who cheats and yet letting husbands who beat or rape their wives live, seems very hypocritical to me. Or is it mainly women who are the "violators" of this "crime"? Either way makes no sense to me. But I am not Muslim, so I guess I just don't understand the priorities here.

 

[robtex]

Draka death by stoning is not just a punishment of woman nor is it limited to just marriage. I made this thread after seeing an online movie of three men being stoned to death for charges unspecified. The middle east has been pretty secluded in sharing which offenses are punishable by death by stoning and who quaifies and who does not. I think, but am not sure that drug dealers sometimes are stoned to death but verifying that is another matter entirely. I do know that drug dealers are killed in Iran but I am unaware of the meathod.

 

[TashaN]

Truth, you told us now exactly what you have to do and the reason why. Never did you gave your opinion on it.

I didn't get what you mean. Do you mean whether i like it or not?

Well, if they asked me to stone anybody i'll not do it but i would agree with them if they did it to a married one if 4 persons saw him/her doing it by their eyes or that he confessed it.

 

[TashaN]

About 3 months ago I saw a program on our local PBS station about a young man and woman who had been stoned in one of the muslim countries. Neither were married. They showed home videos of the young woman who was roughly 19 or so and unmarried. The boy was also unmarried. They were found guilty of adultery. The woman was covered in the full body veil and was stoned. They shot the man in the head.

While looking on the net to see if I could find the report, I came across quite a number of cases where people were condemned to be stoned when they were single. There were quite a number of cases where the women accused a man of rape and sought justice from the court system...which then took the man at his word that he did not (because he had four other men to agree with him) and then sentenced the single woman to be stoned. It was only the backlash of the rest of the world that they backed down and *only* gave her 100 lashes or, in some cases, actually dropped the charges. It was interesting to note as well that in the majority of these cases, it was only the woman who was condemned.

If the law says only the married are stoned, why are they then applying it to single women?

Can you give me any refernce please?

Stoning the single is against islam and no one agree with it. It's only 100 lashes for the single. After all, muslims don't live in one country and there are many uneducated people whether in Afaginstan ro Africa but have you ever heard of such a thing in Saudi Arabia for instance or egypt, etc.?

 

[BucephalusBB]

I didn't get what you mean. Do you mean whether i like it or not?

Well, if they asked me to stone anybody i'll not do it but i would agree with them if they did it to a married one if 4 persons saw him/her doing it by their eyes or that he confessed it.

so brutal death is a correct punishment for this?

and you did understand my question