Death penalty: Are you for or against it?

[Saint Frankenstein]

This sums up why I oppose the death penalty in general. Read back through this thread and you will see no reason put forth for support other than emotions.
Tom

Same for the opposition.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Thus, the only danger to society these people can rationally be said to pose is that they will either maim more small animals or watch more videos of such.

And that's enough to justify sentencing them to death.

 

[psychoslice]

It is not just a matter of being better without. I am not advocating a balancing test. I am suggesting that criminals should be allowed to choose death, and in the most extreme scenarios then we may impose death.

You point out family of the criminal and how a criminals death may cause suffering. But is it not possible that a criminals life also causes suffering. Should we not choose the path of least suffering?

yes I can agree on wanting to end your life, that is if you truly do want to end your life, and that goes for terminally ill people also, yes they could be making their family suffer, but there are a lot of people doing that who are not psychopaths, are we going to kill them also ?.

 

[Curious George]

Maybe not, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't support a person who tortures that kitten to death being killed. People really tend to love dogs, cats, rabbits, etc.


To you. Maybe you haven't been around dogs and cats that much. I don't know.


Both sides are influenced by emotional reactions. It's inescapable, when it comes to topics like these. Unless you're some sort of robot.

I have been around animals all my life. Yes it is my personal opinion that a human child is more valuable than a kitten, but it is also the opinion of the people, as codified in our laws. Moreover, not allowing the death penalty for such cases merely upholds the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. Any sentence grossly disproportionate to the crime is an instance of cruel and unusual punishment. Killing cats no matter how cruelly will never nor should ever get the death penalty here.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I have been around animals all my life. Yes it is my personal opinion that a human child is more valuable than a kitten, but it is also the opinion of the people, as codified in our laws. Moreover, not allowing the death penalty for such cases merely upholds the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. Any sentence grossly disproportionate to the crime is an instance of cruel and unusual punishment. Killing cats no matter how cruelly will never nor should ever get the death penalty here.

You're not a cat person, I see, since you keep using them as an example. Hmm.

Putting a bullet in someone's head because they put out cigarettes on, slowly mutilated, skinned, cut off limbs and genitals, beheaded, burnt, stomped, etc. a sensate living creature to death is hardly "cruel and unusual punishment" and it's completely ridiculous to even suggest that it is. You just don't recognize the capacity for suffering non-human animals have, either out of ignorance or because you view them as "lower" for some bizarre reason. That's what it really comes down to.

Oh, and this is the case that pissed me off last night and caused me to create this thread:
https://www.change.org/p/sign-petit...d-dogs-so-he-could-torture-and-dismember-them

 

[columbus]

And that's enough to justify sentencing them to death.

I can see why, on another thread, you didn't want to be held up as an example of your religion. Obviously Pope Francis, your namesake, would agree.
Tom

 

[Curious George]

This sums up why I oppose the death penalty in general. Read back through this thread and you will see no reason put forth for support other than emotions.
Tom

Hmm, that is not true. Did you read my earlier posts? I fail to see how those were emotion based.

Recap: a retributive aspect of our penal system exists. This allows criminals to pay debt or make ammends with society, one way to do this is forfeiture of life.

Pragmatically if the death penalty was cheaper, it would offer another reason. Currently this is not the case, but it may be possible to make it cheaper.

Lastly, if someone devalues life to such an extreme then as long as that person lives others will be in danger. This includes, psychologists, other inmates, prison officers, etc. I would agree that with these individuals we are dealing with an assumption of risk implicit in job choices, however to think that locking someone up makes everything safe is not true.

Next death can provide a psychological closure for individuals in society which were tormented by the fear that a individual engaging in such heinous crimes roamed and lives.

Lastly, to engage in any philosophical discussion that would deal with rational thoughts on the value of a serial killers life, would need to define what we value in life. I am not sure that we will find agreement, but I would hold that it is possible for one to have qualities that negate and indeed overwhelm any justification for valuing that individual's life in the same manner we value human life in general.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

(This is not specific to you, Frank) Guys. Guess this is my last point in pictures. Even though its religious in context, it just helps getting my points across without needing to defend my faith. Im out!

Nam.


I went to prison (not like that), and met a lot of people there. It was kind of like being in a movie. I saw one chair in the middle of a blank room. They said they strap people to this chair who have been on drugs and don't have much control over their behavior. They (if I remember correctly), wean him off the drugs or let it withdrawal. I know I am on medications. One of which is controlled. If someone tied me up like that and waited to wene me off my meds, I'd probably break my arms in a seizure and most definitely taken to the hospital. Of course, it's by case to case scenario and most likely non perscription drugs. However, the context made me think in that persons shoes. It creeped me out.

We when into the party room while the men where watching t.v. They had Bible study in the back. Although I dont know each of them personally, thank gosh in this area, but I saw a difference when prisioners wanted to know their Lord. I know not everyone is like that. It struck me nonetheless.

This is long but easy to read.

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

Then I think of things like this:

Then I think, what if Hitler had a chance to repent? I know that may be a one percent chance given all the mess he put people through; and, I would not put it by him.

Too many times I see us yelling at each other

Really? What do we value most? Life? Our satisfaction for someone else's crime?

But babies are innocent? What about the doctors? No one ever say they should get dealth penalty and they harmed an innocent child.

I like what she says:

I know we have emotions over this. I mean, if someone took my brothers life, I would not feel good about that person at all. Yet, it's not about my emotions it is about my beliefs and morals. I may want to "kill my other" for not getting me that new car I wanted, but I don't. They are emotions.

This is my last "like" comment:

http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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

I am sure that's why killers, kill. We learn by example.

Later.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo (I devote myself to the Mystic Law of Cause and Affect) ..I devote myself to be one with the Laws of the cycle of Birth and Death.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I can see why, on another thread, you didn't want to be held up as an example of your religion. Obviously Pope Francis, your namesake, would agree.
Tom

I don't really care wtf you think of me since you've had a problem with me for some reason since you came to this site. So spare me.

And it's Saint Francis who is my namesake, not the Pope.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

When I first came to RF, in February 2014, you were a raging Satanist. We got along just fine. And you were more fun as Lvcifer Invictvs, the pagan, last fall or so.
It's your current incarnation as a pompously self righteous Catholic I find annoying and hypocritical.

Tom

Maybe you should reread the first part of my last post to you and take it to heart. That's the last time I'll say it to you, before it goes to the staff (again). I don't want my thread locked.

 

[Curious George]

You're not a cat person, I see, since you keep using them as an example. Hmm.

Putting a bullet in someone's head because they put out cigarettes on, slowly mutilated, skinned, cut off limbs and genitals, beheaded, burnt, stomped, etc. a sensate living creature to death is hardly "cruel and unusual punishment" and it's completely ridiculous to even suggest that it is. You just don't recognize the capacity for suffering non-human animals have, either out of ignorance or because you view them as "lower" for some bizarre reason. That's what it really comes down to.

Oh, and this is the case that pissed me off last night and caused me to create this thread:
https://www.change.org/p/sign-petit...d-dogs-so-he-could-torture-and-dismember-them

Lower? Sure. I am being honest. Thought experiment time: you are driving down the road with barriers on both sides. In your lane there is a child, in the other lane there is a little puppy. You cannot stop in time nor can you avoid them both, but you can choose which one you hit. So, which one? Now they both are from the same household, which would you expect the other human members of the household to want you to choose?

I have had and loved cats, Frank. My last cat lived 20 years. As much as I, personally, loved him more than some person I don't know, if we could contrive such a circumstance wherein killing my cat would the life of a human stranger, I would.

There are no circumstances where I would choose to kill a human to save just my cat. I regard all life fondly, but I do not pretend to regard all life equally. Human life is held in higher esteem than animal life. Does this make me a specieist? Probably.

I certainly realize the capacity for non-human suffering. But this will not change my value system. It is hard for me to imagine how anyone could actually value any animal more than human life. Perhaps we just see differently, perhaps life experiences have instilled different values, and perhaps one of us will one day understand and embrace the others value system.

Re: cruel and unusual punishment. It is the law. If you disagree, then you will have to change the law. So it is not ridiculous. Crimes against animals are not the same as crimes against people. In fact, I would rather someone torture and murder an animal, than do a number of things to people that do not involve murder. So, I can't even see murder and torture of an animal in the same ball park as deserving life with possibility of parole in prison, let alone the death penalty.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Lower? Sure. I am being honest. Thought experiment time: you are driving down the road with barriers on both sides. In your lane there is a child, in the other lane there is a little puppy. You cannot stop in time nor can you avoid them both, but you can choose which one you hit. So, which one? Now they both are from the same household, which would you expect the other human members of the household to want you to choose?

I have had and loved cats, Frank. My last cat lived 20 years. As much as I, personally, loved him more than some person I don't know, if we could contrive such a circumstance wherein killing my cat would the life of a human stranger, I would.

There are no circumstances where I would choose to kill a human to save just my cat. I regard all life fondly, but I do not pretend to regard all life equally. Human life is held in higher esteem than animal life. Does this make me a specieist? Probably.

I certainly realize the capacity for non-human suffering. But this will not change my value system. It is hard for me to imagine how anyone could actually value any animal more than human life. Perhaps we just see differently, perhaps life experiences have instilled different values, and perhaps one of us will one day understand and embrace the others value system.

Re: cruel and unusual punishment. It is the law. If you disagree, then you will have to change the law. So it is not ridiculous. Crimes against animals are not the same as crimes against people. In fact, I would rather someone torture and murder an animal, than do a number of things to people that do not involve murder. So, I can't even see murder and torture of an animal in the same ball park as deserving life with possibility of parole in prison, let alone the death penalty.

We're coming from opposite points of view. I'm a misanthrope and I value non-human animals more than I value most people on this planet. I'm also an animist, so I view non-humans as "persons" with souls and an eternal destiny, too. Humans aren't anything special and we're just another animal. More than that, we're one of the biggest dangers facing the planet today, as well being a very stupid, ignorant and arrogant species. Whales may even be more intelligent than us according to scientific findings, actually.

So that's why I can easily say that animal abusers and torturers should be killed. Because I don't see a difference between doing it to a cat, a dog, a cow, a turtle or to a child. It holds the same moral weight, to me.

However, I do love children so I'm really caught as to what I'd do in your scenario. I can't answer. But if you asked if I would kill someone who killed my dog or - assuming I had children - my child, I would say yes to both.

 

[Curious George]

yes I can agree on wanting to end your life, that is if you truly do want to end your life, and that goes for terminally ill people also, yes they could be making their family suffer, but there are a lot of people doing that who are not psychopaths, are we going to kill them also ?.

Does that refer to "making their family suffer?"

If so, then no. I am talking about the suffering that is caused by someone's mere existence, not just to their family.

But there are additional factors here that must be considered. Neglecting these factors does not fully appreciate what I am trying to say and would therefore create a strawman.

We must also consider past suffering one has inflicted, the level of action which brought one under the substantive jurisdiction of the courts, an individual's knowledge, an individual's capacity for reform, the circumstances of the crime, criminal history etc.

This is not an exhaustive list. Essentially, I am saying there are circumstances that we can contrive that could allow for us to impose the death penalty. What exactly these are, I am not sure they very case by case.

 

[psychoslice]

Does that refer to "making their family suffer?"

If so, then no. I am talking about the suffering that is caused by someone's mere existence, not just to their family.

But there are additional factors here that must be considered. Neglecting these factors does not fully appreciate what I am trying to say and would therefore create a strawman.

We must also consider past suffering one has inflicted, the level of action which brought one under the substantive jurisdiction of the courts, an individual's knowledge, an individual's capacity for reform, the circumstances of the crime, criminal history etc.

This is not an exhaustive list. Essentially, I am saying there are circumstances that we can contrive that could allow for us to impose the death penalty. What exactly these are, I am not sure they very case by case.

Yes were not sure are we, therefore no one should be killed until we are sure.

 

[Curious George]

We're coming from opposite points of view. I'm a misanthrope and I value non-human animals more than I value most people on this planet. I'm also an animist, so I view non-humans as "persons" with souls and an eternal destiny, too. Humans aren't anything special and we're just another animal. More than that, we're one of the biggest dangers facing the planet today, as well being a very stupid, ignorant and arrogant species. Whales may even be more intelligent than us according to scientific findings, actually.

So that's why I can easily say that animal abusers and torturers should be killed. Because I don't see a difference between doing it to a cat, a dog, a cow, a turtle or to a child. It holds the same moral weight, to me.

However, I do love children so I'm really caught as to what I'd do in your scenario. I can't answer. But if you asked if I would kill someone who killed my dog or - assuming I had children - my child, I would say yes to both.

Thanks for the honest answer.

Re: killing one who killed your dog or child.

The motivation of vengeance is strong. I am necessarily trying to avoid this drive to focus on value.

I would absolutely agree that we are a "danger" to existence as we know it. But the world will be okay after we are gone. The earth has survived other mass extinctions, when another arrives whether natural or accelerated by human activities, life will continue.

 

[Deidre]

Against it. It doesn't bring about justice. Killing others as a form of punishment will never bring about a 'greater good.'

If we look at Jesus with the adulterous woman and those who were about to stone her...I mean, that was an actual law back then, and still is in some parts of the world, and committing adultery meant execution. Jesus didn't think that was just, though...and felt that those without sin should throw the first stone.

If we just look at from a secular level, it doesn't prevent crime, to me...it only worsens society when it has the DP. IMHO.

 

[Curious George]

Yes were not sure are we, therefore no one should be killed until we are sure.

We cannot press the pause button. We act according to the information on hand. Courts hear the circumstances and weigh the factors. I do not think people should face the death penalty because they are "bad" or "depraved." But, all of this factors into a decision that I trust the courts to make. If you would like to discuss how the court system can be changed to better facilitate decisions on the death penalty, I am happy to engage. But, we must first agree that the death penalty should not be excluded.

 

[Curious George]

If we just look at from a secular level, it doesn't prevent crime, to me...it only worsens society when it has the DP. IMHO.

What crime can a dead man commit?

 

[Saint_of_Me]

As for me, I'm for it and think it should be expanded for certain crimes. I've seen enough to know that some people are really just evil and some of things that they do to humans or animals is just unspeakable, and they should be removed from the earth for justice's sake. I don't even care about the deterrence argument. It's about justice, to me.

These are the things I think it should be expanded to include:

Violent rape
Sadistic animal abuse and torture
Pimping
Human trafficking
Poaching (especially of endangered/protected species)
Drug lords
Child molestation and rape
Knowingly taking part in and facilitating human rights abuses
Knowingly causing or facilitating financial disasters (that would clear out Wall Street and many politicians pretty quick, lol)

In my opinion, if there's airtight evidence that has been proven not to have been faked by an impartial panel of experts (biological, audio, video, documents, etc.), they should be denied an appeal, denied plea deals and fast-tracked on death row. If such evidence does not exist, they should be allowed appeals.

As for methods of carrying out the death sentence, I believe in scrapping silliness like lethal injection, gas chambers, etc. and just putting a bullet into their head.

Also, I agree that the prison system and legal system needs a drastic overhaul. But much of this is idealism and not necessarily supporting the broken, corrupt system that exists now. In other words, it's what I'd like to see. I believe in rehabilitating those who can be rehabilitated - not all can be, such as psychopaths and those with similar brain abnormalities such as ASPD - but I also believe in justice and that there are some crimes that only monsters would commit in the first place.

So what's your opinion on this?

Really? The death penalty for perpetrating financial fraud?

And I thought I was a conservative! LOL.

But no--I wouldn't kill guys like Bernie Madoff. Let those white collar types spend their lives in jail. That would be worse punishment for them.

Don;t get me wrong, I am very PRO Capital Punishment. The only problem I have with it as it is used nowadays in America is that it's not used nearly enough. Or nearly expedient enough. No convict should ever have to spend more than a couple months on Death Row.

But I differ with you on the crimes that necessitate it. I agree with murder, Child abuse, Human trafficking, and maybe violent rape. But I cannot agree with guys getting the Death Penalty for pimping, since I think prostitution should be legalized. I also don't think animal abuse or drug dealing are grounds for capitol punishment. We'll just let those guys do Life in Prison, with mandatory work with drug addicts or at an animal shelter. LOL

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Thanks for the honest answer.

Re: killing one who killed your dog or child.

The motivation of vengeance is strong. I am necessarily trying to avoid this drive to focus on value.

I would absolutely agree that we are a "danger" to existence as we know it. But the world will be okay after we are gone. The earth has survived other mass extinctions, when another arrives whether natural or accelerated by human activities, life will continue.

No problem. I also form pretty strong bonds with animals and I greatly cherish their company, even the company of butterflies and moths who flutter around me, cats roaming the neighborhood, birds visiting me and so on. They are purely innocent beings and the ones who you bond with will love you unconditionally. I've also been hurt very badly, including going through years of physical and psychological abuse, by many people in my life. That, and also being very aware of the reality of society, has caused me to have disdain for humans in general. I do not hate all people or anything like that. It's more that I'm extremely disappointed in and angry at humanity.