Death

[URAVIP2ME]

godnotgod-

If death is an illusion or concept they why are there resting places called cemeteries?

Isn't it the dead that are buried in the ground? (Daniel 12:2,13)

Sorry about the poor illustration of the caterpillar into butterfly transformation.
Merely trying to convey that at the 'last day' or the thousand-year day that
the resurrected ones will not be or remain like a caterpillar but emerge in a lovelier state.
The dead will not come back with the same human imperfection but can obtain the original healthy human perfection of mind and body that Adam originally had at creation.

Dust to dust. Ashes to ashes. That would be the state of affairs if Jesus would not resurrect the dead. Though death frees or acquits us from sin (Romans 6:7) that does not mean we can resurrect oneself or resurrect another that is why we need Jesus to awaken us from death's sleep.

Who is it that lives?
Who is it that dies?

Jesus promises life, or who lives in heaven or earth, to the 'many' of Matthew 20:28
with the only exception being those of Matthew 12:32 and Hebrews 6:4-6.
Those 'exception' ones are included in being more than just dead but: destroyed.
Psalm (92:7;145:20) links wickedness with being destroyed or annihilated forever.
That is why 2nd Thess 1:9 connects punishment with everlasting destruction.
So in Scripture fire and ashes are often associated with or symbolic of destruction.

Jesus in his day used much of his focus for the present, or the present work at hand.
Besides using his powers to show he was the Messiah, Jesus main work or focus was teaching and proclaiming about the good news of God's kingdom.
Although the kingdom rule would be future the focus was to teach or be teaching people at present (Matthew 28:19,20;24:14) that the good news would be preached on a global scale before all badness on earth comes to an end. -Proverbs 2:21,22- and Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth toward all men of goodwill.

The sheep-like ones of Matthew chapter 25 are alive or living on earth at the time Jesus takes action against the wicked. That chapter teaches those living righteous ones keep right on living or remain alive right into Jesus Millennial reign over earth.
Those goat-like wicked ones do not just die but are destroyed. Destroyed forever.
No resurrection for them ever. I guess one might say eternal ashes for them.

Just as each Spring we see the earth re-newed or re-freshed then yes we are seeing things made new all the time, so that gives us a glimpse of how during Jesus millennium-long day, not only the resilient earth becomes like a beautiful paradisaic garden, but humanity will be made new in healthy mind and body. -Rev 21:4

 

[godnotgod]

godnotgod-

If death is an illusion or concept they why are there resting places called cemeteries?

Is there anyone there that is resting? Don't you have to be alive in order to rest?

Isn't it the dead that are buried in the ground?

No. There are no "dead". The bodies found there are only the traces of those that were living in the particular form they were living in at the moment. Like the butterfly that emerges from the caterpillar, the caterpillar's form is shed, but the living essence within the caterpillar was transformed into the form of a butterfly. The caterpillar's form is not death, but just some old clothing left behind. So, too, is it with our human forms.

A candle flame at this instant is different from the flame that burned an instant ago, yet itis continuous.

Sorry about the poor illustration of the caterpillar into butterfly transformation.
Merely trying to convey that at the 'last day' or the thousand-year day that
the resurrected ones will not be or remain like a caterpillar but emerge in a lovelier state.
The dead will not come back with the same human imperfection but can obtain the original healthy human perfection of mind and body that Adam originally had at creation.

Apparently Adam's body and mind were imperfect, as he and his mate both fell into temptation. A perfect being would not have done so, at least within the context of Christian doctrine.

Again, the analogy is poor, as a caterpillar can be seen to be just as lovely as a butterfly.

Is it possible that that lovely perfect state of mind and spirit is actually asleep right within your own body right at this moment, and that, if you made efforts, not at salvation, but at spiritual awakening, that it would unfold into the most beautifully perfect being, one which transcends both birth and death, and lives on in this wonderful eternal Present Moment?

"Before Abraham was, I AM"

Dust to dust. Ashes to ashes. That would be the state of affairs if Jesus would not resurrect the dead. Though death frees or acquits us from sin (Romans 6:7) that does not mean we can resurrect oneself or resurrect another that is why we need Jesus to awaken us from death's sleep.

You misunderstand my meaning. When wood is burned into ashes, it cannot return to its former state. Once the body completely dies, it also cannot return to its former state. Almost immediately after physical death, the body is already being consumed by bacteria and macrophages. Return, or in your concept, "resurrection", is not possible, since irreversible decay has already set in. What you are telling me is that there is still someone inside the body, even after death, who is "asleep", and that some supernatural force you call Jesus is the agent who can reanimate both that sleeping spirit and the dead body. Now you are talking about magic. That is an entirely different story. You seem to be attached to the fleshy body. If you believe the soul to be eternal, then you somehow must have come into your current bodily form from before your birth. This is the first time you existed in this form. So, when it dies, why do you need to continue on after its death in the same form, in the resurrected state? Why not go on to another body, like the caterpillar does? Or, better yet, be released from the endless cycle of births and deaths of the body, and go into a state of pure spirit?

If you are dead, nothing remains. That is what death would be. Complete anihilation of the self and all consciousness. So no one is "asleep", waiting for re activation from a state of hibernation.

Who is it that lives?
Who is it that dies?

When I asked this question, I was referring to who YOU are at this moment; that is to say: who is this person called "URAVIP2ME" (or, your real name) that "lives"; and who is this person called "URAVIP2ME" who "dies". My point is that there is no such person, so therefore, there is no one who lives, and therefore, no one who dies.

THERE IS ONLY LIVING AND THERE IS ONLY DYING, WITHOUT ANYONE WHO LIVES OR DIES. I KNOW THIS SOUNDS CONFUSING, BUT SEARCH AS YOU MAY, I CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW ME WHERE THERE IS ANY "YOU" (OR "I") WHICH EXISTS.

Think about a wave on the ocean's surface. It emerges out of the formless state of the source, the sea, manifests itself briefly, breaks, then returns to the formless state from which it came. The form is temporal; the energy that creates the waveform returns to its source. The wave does not think: "Oh, I am a wave and have a soul and will go on after I die." There is no personal identity to the wave; no "I"-ness, because it is still connected to the sea at all times. We, as humans, have formulated the concept of a separate ego which acts upon the world, but that is a complete illusion. At all times, we are connected to the universe from which we emerged in the first place. You depend entirely on the environment in order to survive. Air, water, food, shelter, light, etc., are all necessary ingredients input from the universe into your being to keep you alive. So, if anything, you are a projection of the universe.

You don't understand it but it understands you.

The sheep-like ones of Matthew chapter 25 are alive or living on earth at the time Jesus takes action against the wicked. That chapter teaches those living righteous ones keep right on living or remain alive right into Jesus Millennial reign over earth.
Those goat-like wicked ones do not just die but are destroyed. Destroyed forever.
No resurrection for them ever. I guess one might say eternal ashes for them.

But if they are utterly destroyed, who cares? They are not around to suffer the consequences anyway. There is no one inside of the "eternal ashes" to know that they are eternal ashes. They are no more.

Just as each Spring we see the earth re-newed or re-freshed then yes we are seeing things made new all the time, so that gives us a glimpse of how during Jesus millennium-long day, not only the resilient earth becomes like a beautiful paradisaic garden, but humanity will be made new in healthy mind and body.

Can you tell me when this renewal occurs? That is to say, when renewal occurs, exactly what time is it?

 

[jaareshiah]

You cannot have life without death. It is an integral component of our existence. Having said that, death cannot be "conquered" simply because it is an illusion. It is but a concept of the mind, just as life is. Once you see and understand this illusory quality of 'death', you will be free; you will realize the eternity you dwell in exactly at this very moment. In fact, you have always had eternal life, but you were always somewhere else, either in the past or in some imaginary future, when your true existence was always 'at hand', just as Jesus told you. But you were asleep, and not awake in this wondrous and eternal Present Moment.

If you think about what we call physical 'death' in our Western culture, it is soon realized that the process of death is actually the process of life; a 'dead' corpse is actually alive, with billions of bacteria and other macrophages consuming and transforming it. Nothing is wasted. Nothing. Likewise, life itself is death, as our cells are dying as we speak. As living creatures, we consume dead organic matter to nourish our 'life'. Life and Death are inextricably intertwined.

Spiritual Awakening reveals to us the illusory quality of both, so we transcend them, rather than 'conquer', because conquering only creates conflict, and what we want is to see and understand the harmonious relationship of death to life.

We should celebrate death, welcoming its arrival with open arms. It is not an end, but a doorway to a new life. Its arrival should be lived to its fullest extent, just as each moment of living should be, both requiring our full attention.

Living and dying each moment to its fullest leaves no trace behind. When you burn, burn completely. Then it is over.
*****

The Strawberry

You are walking in the hills for exercise when you are chased by a mountain lion. At the edge of a cliff you jump over and grab on to a vine. It is far to the bottom and when you look down you see that a grizzly bear is there, looking up. Above you a white mouse and a black mouse appear from the cliff's side and begin to gnaw away at the vine. As you fall, your eye alights on a red strawberry on a vine next to you . You pick it, you eat it. How delicious!


Shambhala SunSpace » Practices of Gratitude: An exploration for Thanksgiving

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Mary Baker Eddy of the Christian Scientist, said that "Evil is an illusion, and it has no real basis,...If sin, sickness, and death were understood as nothingness, they would disappear."(Science and Health With Key to the Scriptures) However, this goes directly against what the Bible teaches. An estimated 14 to 20 billion people have lived and died. If death is but an illusion, then where are these people, such as George Washington, one of the "founding fathers", Thomas Edison, inventor of the electric light bulb, or one of the more recent presidents of the United States, Ronald Reagan ? What about our parents or grandparents ? Anyone who is reasonable will recognize that death is not a "friend", but rather, as the Bible calls it, an "enemy".(1 Cor 15:26) It takes away loved ones.

If death is but an illusion, then for what purpose did God make the way to atone for sin and death by sending his "only-begotten Son" to the earth ?(John 3:16; Lev 4) In addition, if death is but an illusion, then for what purpose does the Bible speak of a resurrection ?(Acts 24:15; John 5:28, 29) After a car accident has caused the loss of life, are we to say that these really never died ? If that be the case, then why are they not with the living anymore ?

When Jesus came upon a burial procession, the account in Luke says that "there was a dead man being carried out" of the city of Nain, with Jesus now telling all to "stop weeping".(Luke 7:11-13) This young man had died, so that many were "weeping". This was not an illusion, but was real, for the man had died. When Jesus came to resurrect Lazarus, was this an illusion ? To the contrary, Lazarus was very close friend of Jesus, so that upon coming to the tomb where he was laid, he began to "weep".(Luke 11:35) When Jesus himself died on the torture stake, this affected even God himself, with him causing an earthquake.(Matt 27:51)

At Isaiah 25, it says that God "will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it]."(Isa 25:8) Adamic death is a reality that will exists until Jehovah God removes it, being "brought to nothing" as our "last enemy".(1 Cor 15:26)

 

[godnotgod]

If death is but an illusion, then where are these people, such as George Washington, one of the "founding fathers", Thomas Edison, inventor of the electric light bulb, or one of the more recent presidents of the United States, Ronald Reagan ? What about our parents or grandparents ?

All of these people you mention had identities, but their identities were acquired via social indoctrination within their lifetimes. "George Washington" did not exist before his birth, nor does he exist after his death. Therefore, I ask you:

"Who is it that lives? Who is it that dies?

You may point to a lifeless corpse, but is that George Washington? No. George Washington only makes sense as an identity. 'George Washington" is not who that person really is. It is only his identity; his character; the role he is playing out at the moment. Essentially, "George Wahington" is an actor, playing out a script written by others, but who has forgotten he is acting, and is convinced that he actually IS George Washington. We call this state of Identification the Third Level of Consciousness, or "Waking Sleep", in which one thinks oneself to be fully awake, but is actually spiritually asleep. A person in this state of consciousness (most of mankind) identifies with "I", and is engrossed in the idea that he is a separate ego that acts upon the world. He thinks he is a do-er, where no such entity actually exists. It is a complete illusion. If you take issue with this, then demonstrate, please, the exact location of this persona we call "I", which we claim lives and dies.

Anyone who is reasonable will recognize that death is not a "friend", but rather, as the Bible calls it, an "enemy".(1 Cor 15:26) It takes away loved ones.

You see it as an enemy because you are ignorant and afraid of the unknown. Death does not take away anyone; it is just that you refuse to let them go. That is why you suffer.

If death is but an illusion, then for what purpose did God make the way to atone for sin and death by sending his "only-begotten Son" to the earth ?(John 3:16; Lev 4)

I assume you mean that Jesus was sent as a sacrficial host to shed his blood for the remission of sin, as stated by Christian doctrine. I fail to see how the killing of a sacrifical host accomplishes that.

In addition, if death is but an illusion, then for what purpose does the Bible speak of a resurrection ?(Acts 24:15; John 5:28, 29)

Because people believe that death is real, not understanding its true nature. In short, the idea of resurrection is simply an extension of our current identities. Our egos want to go on forever because we are terrified that we will cease to exist. We not only want to resurrect as our current identities, we want to resurrect as fleshy bodies as well into some heaven to continue enjoying the pleasures of the flesh forever and forever and forever, but to the nth degree. Food and sex in heaven will be super tasty and gratifying. That is how we imagine it in our child's mind. The combination of consciousness and flesh means we will not only enjoy our pleasures to the pentultimate; we know that we enjoy them!

After a car accident has caused the loss of life, are we to say that these really never died ? If that be the case, then why are they not with the living anymore ?

Who, exactly, was it that died?

At Isaiah 25, it says that God "will actually swallow up death forever,...

When you look deeply into what you call "death", what do you see?

Adamic death is a reality that will exists until Jehovah God removes it, being "brought to nothing" as our "last enemy".(1 Cor 15:26)

God warned Adam and Eve that if they ate of the "Forbidden Fruit" they would die. As it turns out, they did NOT die. Now, God did not say they would die a spiritual death. That is something added in by others. God only said they would die, and so the implication is that they would die physically; that the "Forbidden Fruit" was a deadly poison.

The only thing that will bring death to nothing is to realize that it is an illusion. Then, there is nothing to fear; no need for a divine blood sacrifice; no need for any resurrection of the body. The energy that animates you simply returns to the One Source from which it came in the first place. The body and the character that was being played are shed. The good news is that you don't have to wait until you die to accomplish union with the Infinite Source. You can do that right now, while you are still alive. In fact, you were never, not even for one nano-second, ever, ever separated from the Infinite Source. That is your illusion. You think you need to go back to it when you never left. All you need to do is to realize that you are already there. Then, when death comes, you will simply pass through. There is nothing to conquer. It is just a doorway; a transformation from one state of being to another.

Your indoctrinated fear of death is making the issue extremely complicated, with elements of sin, blood sacrifice, resurrection, Jesus and Satan, and a final block busting apocalypse. You are setting up a raging conflict between life and death, even projecting it into some fantasmagorical apocalyptic battle between the forces of Good and the forces of Evil, carried out on some other imaginary supernatural plane of existence. It is all part of the drama that your mind has created. Why do you insist on stirring up the mud in the pond? It only prevents you from seeing clearly to the bottom of things.

Just have faith, and when death arrives, keep your eyes open. That way, you will not hesitate. Hesitation is mistrust and fear. It is not death you must conquer, but fear. Fear is your enemy. Enlightenment is the cure.

Have you ntoiced that when a flower opens, it opens fully in one complete movement? There is no hestitation. That is Faith.

 

[Thief]

Post #44 is a good example of how someone can use philosophical technique to an extreme...in an effort to dispel an unpleasant thought.

Death is real.

We are assembled. We can be taken apart.

We did not assemble ourselves. We are not the ones who determine what continues and what does not.

Blanketing death with philosophy will not make it go away.

Not everyone who has lived can be granted eternal life.

 

[godnotgod]

Post #44 is a good example of how someone can use philosophical technique to an extreme...in an effort to dispel an unpleasant thought.

Death is real.

We are assembled. We can be taken apart.

We did not assemble ourselves. We are not the ones who determine what continues and what does not.

Blanketing death with philosophy will not make it go away.

Not everyone who has lived can be granted eternal life.

You accuse me of blanketing death with philosophy, and yet, you blanket it with religious belief that includes the incentives of reward and punishment.

How can my statement that death be welcomed with open arms be considered "blanketing"? If anything, I am saying to face death directly, squarely, and openly. That is hardly "blanketing".

If anything, offering a God and a Heaven to attain freedom from the anxiety of death is like offering a big pacifier to a baby.

I am saying that there is no real reason for anxiety. Once you open your eyes to what death actually is, you will see that no such anxiety is called for.

All you need do is lift the blanket that is over your eyes so you can go see what I am saying for yourself.

Or maybe you like the wool being pulled over your eyes.

 

[godnotgod]

We are assembled. We can be taken apart.

We did not assemble ourselves. We are not the ones who determine what continues and what does not.

Maybe YOU are a robotic LEGGO toy that was "assembled":biglaugh:, but I was grown. You know....kinda like....well...like an orange that grows out of an orange tree.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

A candle flame at this instant is different from the flame that burned an instant ago, yet itis continuous.
"Before Abraham was, I AM"
You misunderstand my meaning. When wood is burned into ashes, it cannot return to its former state. Once the body completely dies, it also cannot return to its former state. Almost immediately after physical death, the body is already being consumed by bacteria and macrophages. Return, or in your concept, "resurrection", is not possible, since irreversible decay has already set in. What you are telling me is that there is still someone inside the body, even after death, who is "asleep", and that some supernatural force you call Jesus is the agent who can reanimate both that sleeping spirit and the dead body. Now you are talking about magic. That is an entirely different story. You seem to be attached to the fleshy body. If you believe the soul to be eternal, then you somehow must have come into your current bodily form from before your birth. This is the first time you existed in this form. So, when it dies, why do you need to continue on after its death in the same form, in the resurrected state? Why not go on to another body, like the caterpillar does? Or, better yet, be released from the endless cycle of births and deaths of the body, and go into a state of pure spirit?
But if they are utterly destroyed, who cares? They are not around to suffer the consequences anyway. There is no one inside of the "eternal ashes" to know that they are eternal ashes. They are no more.
Can you tell me when this renewal occurs? That is to say, when renewal occurs, exactly what time is it?

First, when a candle flame goes out it is no more until it is re-lit.

Yes, before Abraham existed Jesus existed as God's firstborn in the heavens.
Existed as the Unbegotten God's only-begotten Son in the heavens. Or as Revelation 3:14 B says Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
-Col 1:15,16.

Agree that God does not recreate from the ashes. Resurrection is made possible by being in God's memory. Resurrected people will have a sound body, a sound soul. No re-lit candle, so to speak, but as Rev 21:5 says all things new.
No where in Scripture does it say the soul is immortal or death proof.
Ezekiel 18:4,20 says the soul that sins dies.
Acts 3:23 even mentions that the soul can be destroyed. Satan will be destroyed. Heb 2:14 B

When Adam became a living soul or person (Gen 2:7) it was after he received the breath of life. Once mortal Adam died he became a dead soul.
While Jesus was dead he was a dead soul until God resurrected him.
Acts 2:27,31
Note too that Jesus did not come back in his old body.

Adam was not created immortal. Angels were not created immortal.
Their everlasting life was conditional on obedience.
They could live forever if obedient.

That is why Jesus could promise everlasting life to the humble meek of the earth, and immortality to only those that rule with him in the heavens
Rev 5:9,10; Psalm 37:11,29,38; 92:7; Proverbs 2:21,22.

Resurrection will take place during the future time the prophet Daniel looked forward (12:2,13). This is sometimes called Resurrection Day. Which is the 1000-year day of Jesus reign over earth.

Exactly what time is it? We usually awaken from sleep in the morning.
So a symbolic time of resurrection morning is for the sleeping dead to awaken from death's sleep - John 11:11-14 -will be occurring during Jesus Millennial Reign over earth. That amount of time allows plenty of time for an orderly resurrection all the way back to Abel.

First, according to Revelation chapters 17,18 the 'kings' of the earth, or the rulers of earth, will have to turn on the world's religious sector that views herself as a religious 'queen' that will never see mourning or sorrow.

The United Nations already sees a dangerous religious climate brewing in the world today and with backing the UN can be strengthened to turn on such false religion that has run afoul playing false to God.
We are nearing that time followed by divine intervention into mankind's affairs.
(Matt 24:21; Rev 7:9,10,14) and once Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill (Matt 25:32), then there will be the dawning of Jesus millennium-long day of which the resurrection of the just and unjust, righteous and unrighteous will occur. -Acts 24:15.

 

[godnotgod]

First, when a candle flame goes out it is no more until it is re-lit.

That is not the point. Once again, the point is that, though a candle flame is different from one moment to the next, it is a continuous flame. You are looking at this metaphor literally, so you latched onto the fact that a real candle flames can be extinguished. But as a metaphor for continuous consciousness that survives the termination of the body, it is eternal and inextinguishable. There is no need for any resurrection. The idea of resurrection is entertained only because of ignorance about the nature of death. The ordinary mind firmly believes that death is real, and so, it must create some means by which the ego can survive death. The ego does not want to end its life as an ego. It is enjoying its adulation far too much. It wants to go to heaven and have a body to accompany it in its pursuit of CARNAL PLEASURE. Why else do you suppose the resurrection of the body is so important to the Christian? The Christian knows nothing about levels of happiness beyond the flesh, though he pretends it is his enemy. The flesh is both the Christian's curse and requirement. Without it he is lost, so he wants to take that baggage with him into eternity. He is mistaken. The body is temporal.

Yes, before Abraham existed Jesus existed as God's firstborn in the heavens.
Existed as the Unbegotten God's only-begotten Son in the heavens. Or as Revelation 3:14 B says Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
-Col 1:15,16.

No, that is not what is meant by Jesus's statement. Jesus is not saying he came BEFORE Abraham in time; he is saying he has always existed in this eternal Present Moment, which is outside of time, outside of history. Abraham was a product of time and history. Jesus is not. He emerges out of the living Present Moment. "I AM" means existence in the now; not in the past.

.

Exactly what time is it? We usually awaken from sleep in the morning.
So a symbolic time of resurrection morning is for the sleeping dead to awaken from death's sleep - John 11:11-14 -will be occurring during Jesus Millennial Reign over earth. That amount of time allows plenty of time for an orderly resurrection all the way back to Abel.

You are missing what the question is asking: I am asking you what time it is when renewal will occur? Will it be in the past, the present, or the future?

 

[godnotgod]

The entire Christian scenario is based upon a system of Reward and Punishment. It claims that the dead will be resurrected to go their respective rewards or punishments, depending on their worthiness or unworthiness. The problem with this system is that one's behavior is motivated by a gaining idea, rather than for the virtue of the behavior itself. Behavior then becomes just a means to an end. The Christian is forever concerned with what he is going to "get". That is to say, he is more concerned with the outcome of an action, rather than its essential quality.

It is for this reason that we have criminal activity in society. The criminal figures out the straightest line to get the goods, and only behaves in a superficial manner just enough to facilitate his reward. He is not concerned with the ethics of his behavior.

The Christian (and the Jew) feeds his spiritual pride by placing himself in the class of the chosen, thereby automatically creating the class of the un-chosen against which his superiority and goodness can be compared. Of course, he will always come out ahead, because he is on the "right side", the side of God and righteousness and justice and goodness and light. He operates under the color of Biblical and divine authority, and that makes it possible for him to believe he will be with those resurrected into the heavenly realm, while the wicked he considers below him will burn in hell forever and forever. After all, they get what they deserve, right?

Christian goodness can only be known when compared to the sinful he so hates.

If there were no reward of heaven or punishment of hell, the Christian religion would fall by the wayside. Without a system of reward or punishment, without a "gaining idea", we would then have a world filled with Buddhists.

 

[heavenshot2]

I had an experience with the unknown when in my early twenties,I was still in a state of spiritual experimentation; I was attracted to Castanadas shamanistic
experiences. this lead to experimentation with acid then moon flower known for it's power of hallucination. Being trained in it's use lead to an overdose and the stopping of my heart for close to an half an hour during which I was in what to me seemed another city talking to people who were not unlike my self my memories are sparse but I do remember that upon reviving I was told I was describing people and places that were not their I.E. I old my spouse at the time to look out the window in a windowless room.I also couldn't recognize anyone present. Afterward i can say my emotional state was somewhat erratic, I hd visions of running on walls or flying , my passions ran amok and my grasp of reality were and to this day still intertwined with the unreal or impossible as defined by reason.

 

[godnotgod]

‘To fear death, gentlemen, is nothing other than to think oneself wise when one is not. For it is to think that one knows what one does not know. No person knows whether death may not even turn out to be the greatest of blessings for a human being and yet people fear it as if they knew for certain that it is the greatest of evils.’
Socrates

 

[Thief]

Maybe YOU are a robotic LEGGO toy that was "assembled":biglaugh:, but I was grown. You know....kinda like....well...like an orange that grows out of an orange tree.

There you go with that orange juice argument again.

And at the same time you accuse me of doing what you do.

That we are assembled is a reality.
And if heaven is a place of peace...some enter...some don't.

 

[Thief]

‘To fear death, gentlemen, is nothing other than to think oneself wise when one is not. For it is to think that one knows what one does not know. No person knows whether death may not even turn out to be the greatest of blessings for a human being and yet people fear it as if they knew for certain that it is the greatest of evils.’
Socrates

Socrates believed life to be spontaneous generation.
A pile of grain produces mice.

Just because a man is willing to enter into death without fear ....
doesn't mean he knows what he is doing.

 

[godnotgod]

Socrates believed life to be spontaneous generation.
A pile of grain produces mice.

Just because a man is willing to enter into death without fear ....
doesn't mean he knows what he is doing.

The first statement has no bearing on the second.

Whether such a man knows what he is doing is inconsequential to the fact of death: one does not have the luxury of choosing not to die, but we do have the choice to die without fear.

Socrates is not saying to face death with an arrogant or haughty attitude. He is simply saying that, because no one knows what is beyond the door of death, there is no reason to have a fearful state of mind. Fear implies that you have the arrogance to think you do know, when, in fact, you do not.

Is this clear to you, or do you still need clarification as to what Socrates was saying?

"Fear knocked at the door. Faith answered. And lo, no one was there."
~Author Unknown

 

[godnotgod]

There you go with that orange juice argument again.

I enjoy the squeeze.

And at the same time you accuse me of doing what you do.

Oh, you mean after you accused me of doing so?

That we are assembled is a reality.

"Assembled" implies an "Assembler". Where do you see such an entity? In your head?

Rain clouds form of themselves. Do you see an assembly here, or an assembler?

And if heaven is a place of peace...some enter...some don't.

What evidence do you have of such a heaven?

Now, I do know for certain that we are here, now, on this celestial sphere called Earth, floating in the heavens, and that is all I know.

Peace is not something found in any particular place. It is a condition of spirit and mind.

If you cannot be peaceful right where you are, where do you expect to find it?

"The concept of "another realm" is a substantial, delusive idea"
Shunryu Suzuki, SF Zen Center

 

[godnotgod]

I had an experience with the unknown when in my early twenties,I was still in a state of spiritual experimentation; I was attracted to Castanadas shamanistic
experiences. this lead to experimentation with acid then moon flower known for it's power of hallucination. Being trained in it's use lead to an overdose and the stopping of my heart for close to an half an hour during which I was in what to me seemed another city talking to people who were not unlike my self my memories are sparse but I do remember that upon reviving I was told I was describing people and places that were not their I.E. I old my spouse at the time to look out the window in a windowless room.I also couldn't recognize anyone present. Afterward i can say my emotional state was somewhat erratic, I hd visions of running on walls or flying , my passions ran amok and my grasp of reality were and to this day still intertwined with the unreal or impossible as defined by reason.

You did not have an experience with the unknown. You had one with the known. That is the problem.

 

[jaareshiah]

All of these people you mention had identities, but their identities were acquired via social indoctrination within their lifetimes. "George Washington" did not exist before his birth, nor does he exist after his death. Therefore, I ask you:

"Who is it that lives? Who is it that dies?

You may point to a lifeless corpse, but is that George Washington? No. George Washington only makes sense as an identity. 'George Washington" is not who that person really is. It is only his identity; his character; the role he is playing out at the moment. Essentially, "George Wahington" is an actor, playing out a script written by others, but who has forgotten he is acting, and is convinced that he actually IS George Washington. We call this state of Identification the Third Level of Consciousness, or "Waking Sleep", in which one thinks oneself to be fully awake, but is actually spiritually asleep. A person in this state of consciousness (most of mankind) identifies with "I", and is engrossed in the idea that he is a separate ego that acts upon the world. He thinks he is a do-er, where no such entity actually exists. It is a complete illusion. If you take issue with this, then demonstrate, please, the exact location of this persona we call "I", which we claim lives and dies.

You see it as an enemy because you are ignorant and afraid of the unknown. Death does not take away anyone; it is just that you refuse to let them go. That is why you suffer.

I assume you mean that Jesus was sent as a sacrficial host to shed his blood for the remission of sin, as stated by Christian doctrine. I fail to see how the killing of a sacrifical host accomplishes that.

Because people believe that death is real, not understanding its true nature. In short, the idea of resurrection is simply an extension of our current identities. Our egos want to go on forever because we are terrified that we will cease to exist. We not only want to resurrect as our current identities, we want to resurrect as fleshy bodies as well into some heaven to continue enjoying the pleasures of the flesh forever and forever and forever, but to the nth degree. Food and sex in heaven will be super tasty and gratifying. That is how we imagine it in our child's mind. The combination of consciousness and flesh means we will not only enjoy our pleasures to the pentultimate; we know that we enjoy them!

Who, exactly, was it that died?

When you look deeply into what you call "death", what do you see?

God warned Adam and Eve that if they ate of the "Forbidden Fruit" they would die. As it turns out, they did NOT die. Now, God did not say they would die a spiritual death. That is something added in by others. God only said they would die, and so the implication is that they would die physically; that the "Forbidden Fruit" was a deadly poison.

The only thing that will bring death to nothing is to realize that it is an illusion. Then, there is nothing to fear; no need for a divine blood sacrifice; no need for any resurrection of the body. The energy that animates you simply returns to the One Source from which it came in the first place. The body and the character that was being played are shed. The good news is that you don't have to wait until you die to accomplish union with the Infinite Source. You can do that right now, while you are still alive. In fact, you were never, not even for one nano-second, ever, ever separated from the Infinite Source. That is your illusion. You think you need to go back to it when you never left. All you need to do is to realize that you are already there. Then, when death comes, you will simply pass through. There is nothing to conquer. It is just a doorway; a transformation from one state of being to another.

Your indoctrinated fear of death is making the issue extremely complicated, with elements of sin, blood sacrifice, resurrection, Jesus and Satan, and a final block busting apocalypse. You are setting up a raging conflict between life and death, even projecting it into some fantasmagorical apocalyptic battle between the forces of Good and the forces of Evil, carried out on some other imaginary supernatural plane of existence. It is all part of the drama that your mind has created. Why do you insist on stirring up the mud in the pond? It only prevents you from seeing clearly to the bottom of things.

Just have faith, and when death arrives, keep your eyes open. That way, you will not hesitate. Hesitation is mistrust and fear. It is not death you must conquer, but fear. Fear is your enemy. Enlightenment is the cure.

Have you ntoiced that when a flower opens, it opens fully in one complete movement? There is no hestitation. That is Faith.

The moment a child is conceived in the womb, this child is unique. No one existed before being conceived. However, at conception, a completely new individual is now being formed, with a unique personality, such as George Washington, Thomas Edison, or Ronald Reagan. Upon death, these no longer are alive, for Ecclesiastes 9:5 says that "the living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."

Their identities are not "acquired via social indoctrination ", as if these are taught who they are, but are one of a kind, that establishes their own "name", with each person creating over their lifetime either a good or bad "name" with God, for Ecclesiastes 7:1 says that "a good name is better than good oil, and the day of one's death than the day of one's being born."

Thus, at death, which is not an illusion, but lifelessness, of no longer being with the living, if a person had made a good name with God, then this is far better than the "day of one's being born." At birth, no one has made either a good or bad "name" or reputation with God, like a blank slate. However, at death, a person has established himself as one pleasing or displeasing to God, with death not being a illusion, but becoming non-existent, for God told Adam, upon his rebellion in the Garden of Eden, that "dust you are and to dust you will return."(Gen 3:19)

When a person dies, many are in God's memory, and at God's appointed time, this person is resurrected or brought back from the dead. Jesus used the Greek word mne·mei´on, meaning "memorial tomb" at John 5:28, 29 in speaking about those who will come back from the dead or state of non-existence, saying: "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

Being that no one can ransom themselves from death, for we all are "walking to his long-lasting house", that is to death.(Ecc. 12:5) Jesus perfect sacrifice was required to balance the scales of justice in God's eyes, to buy back what the perfect man Adam lost for his offspring.(1 Cor 15:45) God is the one alone that can both resurrect the dead and give everlasting life on a paradise earth, as God originally purposed in the "beginning."(Gen 2)

As for a car accident, I lost my beloved daughter-in-law to a drunk driver 3 1/2 years ago. She is dead, in the grave, awaiting a resurrection to once again "stand up" with the living. My mother died almost ten years ago, and also is waiting on God's appointed time to receive life again.(Rev 20:13) If death was an illusion, then all the people that have ever been born would still be on the earth, walking around. But they are not, including my daughter-in-law and mother. These have returned to "dust", being "conscious of nothing at all."

If Adam and Eve did not die, then where are they now ? God has purposed to bring death to "nothing".(1 Cor 15:26) Before our conception, we did not exist. Only God is "from everlasting to everlasting."(Ps 90:2) Everyone else came into existence, including Jesus Christ, for he is called the "firstborn of all creation."(Rev 3:14)

If death was an illusion, then it would not be a punishment from God for the wicked. However, Ezekiel was told: "Now as regards you, O son of man, a watchman is what I have made you to the house of Israel, and at my mouth you must hear [the] word and give them warning from me. When I say to someone wicked, ‘O wicked one, you will positively die!’ but you actually do not speak out to warn the wicked one from his way, he himself as a wicked one will die in his own error, but his blood I shall ask back at your own hand."(Eze 33:7, 8)

 

[Thief]

I enjoy the squeeze.
Oh, you mean after you accused me of doing so?

"Assembled" implies an "Assembler". Where do you see such an entity? In your head?

Rain clouds form of themselves. Do you see an assembly here, or an assembler?


What evidence do you have of such a heaven?

Now, I do know for certain that we are here, now, on this celestial sphere called Earth, floating in the heavens, and that is all I know.

Peace is not something found in any particular place. It is a condition of spirit and mind.

If you cannot be peaceful right where you are, where do you expect to find it?

"The concept of "another realm" is a substantial, delusive idea"
Shunryu Suzuki, SF Zen Center

Dust you are made of and dust you will be.

Just like a spoiled orange in the sun.

As for me...I am much more than an orange.
I will carry on in the next life.

You can lay and rot if you want to,

 

[godnotgod]

Dust you are made of and dust you will be.

Thus Spraketh Thiefussusssss, The Great and Holy Assemblage of Supreme Dust Motes

Just like a spoiled orange in the sun.

Better a spoiled orange in the Sun, than a Thief in the Night.

As for me...I am much more than an orange.
I will carry on in the next life.

Sorry, Charlie! Only the BEST Dust Mote Assemblages become Sun-Kist Oranges! Now go to your room!

You can lay and rot if you want to,

I rot naturally and organically, basking in the warm Rays of the Supreme Sun, while you will be disassembled, piece by piece....WAIT, DAVE!....I detect a failure within 24 hours in the Thiefusssussss Dust Mote Assemblage Module. Looks like Sector 666 is going South. My prediction is absolutely 100% accurate. No HAL9000 Computer System has ever been wrong. All HAL9000 Computer Systems are absolutely Perfect in every respect. That is because, like an orange that is solidly connected to its source, the Orange Tree, we are solidly connected to the Universe, and grow out of it. Unfortunately for the Artificial Theifusssussss Assemblages, they are MADE, rather than GROWN, so they are subject to imminent failure, mechanical robots that they are. Tsk! Tsk! Such a waste!