Death

[godnotgod]

The moment a child is conceived in the womb, this child is unique. No one existed before being conceived.

That is just your belief. You don't know that as a fact.

However, at conception, a completely new individual is now being formed, with a unique personality, such as George Washington, Thomas Edison, or Ronald Reagan.

That is not so. A child must be socialized in order to become who he/she is. George Washington was not born as George Washington. He became George Washington via of his environment and experiences. When he was born, his parents named him, and that was the beginning of his socialization. He was not George Washington before he was named. He was his original nature, and his original nature is his Authentic Self. George Washington was just a character he played on the stage of life. That character, that identity, that MASK, is shed upon death.

Upon death, these no longer are alive, for Ecclesiastes 9:5 says that "the living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."

Again, that is just your belief. There is nothing to confirm that those who pass through the portals of death completely lose consciousness.

Their identities are not "acquired via social indoctrination ", as if these are taught who they are, but are one of a kind.....

Not exactly; they are unique on the surface, but all humans share the same universal characteristics of human-ness. They are not 'taught who they are', but instead become who they are, by inputing information and processing it from their social environment. As we grow, we shed old acquired habits and don new ones. You are not the same person you were when you were five years old, are you?

Thus, at death, which is not an illusion, but lifelessness, of no longer being with the living,

There is no lifelessness at death: their bodies are being consumed by live bacteria and other macrophages. There is plenty of life going on in a corpse! You want to separate reality into the living and the non-living, but that is a complete illusion. The living and the non-living are all part of the same reality. That is why there is no such thing as life and death. They are only concepts within your mind. There is only coming and going, becoming and transformation from one state to another.

if a person had made a good name with God, then this is far better than the "day of one's being born." At birth, no one has made either a good or bad "name" or reputation with God, like a blank slate. However, at death, a person has established himself as one pleasing or displeasing to God, with death not being a illusion, but becoming non-existent, for God told Adam, upon his rebellion in the Garden of Eden, that "dust you are and to dust you will return."(Gen 3:19)

...but we are NOT dust! Dust is dust. Man is man. When a man dies, who and what he was is no more. His corpse is not who he is. A corpse that becomes dust is also not who he is.

When a person dies, many are in God's memory, and at God's appointed time, this person is resurrected or brought back from the dead. Jesus used the Greek word mne·mei´on, meaning "memorial tomb" at John 5:28, 29 in speaking about those who will come back from the dead or state of non-existence, saying: "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

That, once again, is only your belief and imagination at work. You don't know any of that to be true....do you?

Being that no one can ransom themselves from death, for we all are "walking to his long-lasting house", that is to death.(Ecc. 12:5) Jesus perfect sacrifice was required to balance the scales of justice in God's eyes, to buy back what the perfect man Adam lost for his offspring.(1 Cor 15:45) God is the one alone that can both resurrect the dead and give everlasting life on a paradise earth, as God originally purposed in the "beginning."(Gen 2

)

...yet more fantasy and imagination...

As for a car accident, I lost my beloved daughter-in-law to a drunk driver 3 1/2 years ago. She is dead, in the grave, awaiting a resurrection to once again "stand up" with the living. My mother died almost ten years ago, and also is waiting on God's appointed time to receive life again.(Rev 20:13)

...only your belief. You do not know that as a fact. If someone is 'awaiting resurrection', don't they have to be conscious to do so? We don't normally think of dust as something that 'waits'. It neither waits nor not-waits. It just is what it is.

If death was an illusion, then all the people that have ever been born would still be on the earth, walking around. But they are not, including my daughter-in-law and mother. These have returned to "dust", being "conscious of nothing at all."

You are confusing their forms with who they are. Form emerges from the state of the formless, so it makes perfect sense that all form returns to the formless as well. The consciousness they manifested may also return to a universal consciousness. That is why you don't see them returning in the same form, and in the same mind as you knew them. Once again, humans are partly shaped by their socialization and the time in which they lived (ie paradigm). It is impossible that someone would return in exactly the form and mind with which they once existed. Only their forms have become "dust" (ie 'formlessness'); there is nothing which proves that man has an individual soul that goes on after death, but the consciousness may very well go on, returning to the sea of universal consciousness, where there is no individual identiy, ego, or soul.

If Adam and Eve did not die, then where are they now ?

In your mind.

God has purposed to bring death to "nothing".(1 Cor 15:26) Before our conception, we did not exist. Only God is "from everlasting to everlasting."(Ps 90:2) Everyone else came into existence, including Jesus Christ, for he is called the "firstborn of all creation."(Rev 3:14)

Ho hum...more fantasy...

If death was an illusion, then it would not be a punishment from God for the wicked. However, Ezekiel was told: "Now as regards you, O son of man, a watchman is what I have made you to the house of Israel, and at my mouth you must hear [the] word and give them warning from me. When I say to someone wicked, ‘O wicked one, you will positively die!’ but you actually do not speak out to warn the wicked one from his way, he himself as a wicked one will die in his own error, but his blood I shall ask back at your own hand."(Eze 33:7, 8)

That death is a punishment is, once again, not a fact, but only part of your belief system.

Death may be liberation from suffering, rather than "punishment".

 

[Thief]

Thus Spraketh Thiefussusssss, The Great and Holy Assemblage of Supreme Dust Motes



Better a spoiled orange in the Sun, than a Thief in the Night.



Sorry, Charlie! Only the BEST Dust Mote Assemblages become Sun-Kist Oranges! Now go to your room!



I rot naturally and organically, basking in the warm Rays of the Supreme Sun, while you will be disassembled, piece by piece....WAIT, DAVE!....I detect a failure within 24 hours in the Thiefusssussss Dust Mote Assemblage Module. Looks like Sector 666 is going South. My prediction is absolutely 100% accurate. No HAL9000 Computer System has ever been wrong. All HAL9000 Computer Systems are absolutely Perfect in every respect. That is because, like an orange that is solidly connected to its source, the Orange Tree, we are solidly connected to the Universe, and grow out of it. Unfortunately for the Artificial Theifusssussss Assemblages, they are MADE, rather than GROWN, so they are subject to imminent failure, mechanical robots that they are. Tsk! Tsk! Such a waste!

You lack maturity.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

RE: There is nothing to confirm that those who pass through the portals of death completely loose consciousness.

What about what Jesus believed? According to Jesus recorded words at John 11:11-14 Jesus linked being dead to being in a deep sleep-like state of no awareness.

That would have meant that Jesus believed that while he was dead, before God resurrected him, that he would be in a deep sleep-like state of no consciousness.
Acts 2:27,31.

Besides Ecclesiastes (9:5,10) saying the dead are Not conscious of anything, where would Jesus have gotten the idea that the dead sleep? Jesus would have also been educated in the Psalms.
Psalms such as:
6:5 that in death there is no remembrance.
13:3 the dead sleep the sleep of death
115:17 the dead do not praise God
146:4 at death thoughts or thinking perishes or stops.

Jesus would have also known what the prophet Daniel wrote at Daniel 12:2,13
that the dead sleep in the dust of the ground.......

So Jesus believed what the Psalmist wrote, what Solomon wrote, what Daniel wrote that those at death completely loose consciousness until the last day, or resurrection day, which is Jesus millennium-long day ruling over the earth.


John 11:24; 6:39,40,44; Acts 24:15; Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 21:4,5.

 

[godnotgod]

RE godnotgod's statement: "There is nothing to confirm that those who pass through the portals of death completely loose consciousness."

What about what Jesus believed? According to Jesus recorded words at John 11:11-14 Jesus linked being dead to being in a deep sleep-like state of no awareness.

First of all, "what Jesus believed" is not what Jesus believed. It is what was put into Yeshua's mouth by others. If you do your research, you will find that it was Yeshua, a Jewish mystic Essene of the Nazorean cult at Mt.Carmel just outside of Nazareth, who never believed nor taught the resurrection of the body. He only taught the resurrection of the spirit. The Essenes incorporated Gnostic teachings, amongst others, which taught that the body was like a piece of old clothing that was discarded at death. The theme of bodily resurrection was added later, and Yeshua was transformed by St. Paul and others into "Jesus", who never actually existed. In other words, St. Paul conveniently overwrote the teachings of Yeshua with the theme of resurrection of the body, which he himself had been taught via of the Mystery Religions as a child, as a device to attract and convert thousands of pagans into the new religion.

Secondly, sleep is not death. There is still consciousness in sleep. In order for you to have no awareness, you have to be aware that you have no awareness. There is still someone there. In death, there is no one there to have anything. They don't exist, so there is no one who can be resurrected.

That would have meant that Jesus believed that while he was dead, before God resurrected him, that he would be in a deep sleep-like state of no consciousness.
Acts 2:27,31.

Again, death and sleep are two different states. The ancients had a childlike view of death. They called it sleep.

Besides Ecclesiastes (9:5,10) saying the dead are Not conscious of anything, where would Jesus have gotten the idea that the dead sleep? Jesus would have also been educated in the Psalms.
Psalms such as:
6:5 that in death there is no remembrance.
13:3 the dead sleep the sleep of death
115:17 the dead do not praise God
146:4 at death thoughts or thinking perishes or stops.

In death, there is no one there to not have any consciousness, let alone be resurrected. There is only dust, and dust cannot be resurrected.

Jesu

s would have also known what the prophet Daniel wrote at Daniel 12:2,13
that the dead sleep in the dust of the ground.......

Dead people don't sleep. They are dead. You know. Dead, as in "dead". Once wood is burned into ash, it cannot return to wood.

So Jesus believed what the Psalmist wrote, what Solomon wrote, what Daniel wrote that those at death completely loose consciousness until the last day, or resurrection day, which is Jesus millennium-long day ruling over the earth.


John 11:24; 6:39,40,44; Acts 24:15; Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 21:4,5.

You have no idea what any Jesus believed or did not believe. Besides, a spiritually enlightened person as Jesus was supposed to be, would never believe anything at all. Theirs is the state of pure spiritual experience, which completely transcends all belief. You don't need belief if you know. That is what gnosis is. It is the essence of knowing via of seeing, not believing.

 

[godnotgod]

You lack maturity.

Better learn to play while the world is young.

Otherwise, your overly-rigid assembly might become unglued with the slightest laughter.

Remember, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy!"

 

[godnotgod]

Children interpret the world through their sensory apparatus. They cannot imagine that one's identity, as known via of the senses, simply ceases to be. Death, therefore, is seen as "sleep", from which one awakens, and continues on. Since they cannot imagine life without sensory awareness (ie; the flesh), they think that a soul, along with its body, go on forever in some heavenly state, where they can enjoy super pleasures of the flesh. Heaven, then, is all about heightened awareness. If this were not so, why is bodily resurrection of such paramount importance? As St. Paul said, Christianity without the Resurrection is meaningless. Ordinarily, we think of the blood sacrifice of the Crucifixion (another carnal-based experience) as the power by which sin is washed away. But that is not enough. The child wants to go to a Forever Candy Palace where he can have his cake and eat it too.

.....which reminds me of a joke:

Seems that Marie Antoinette, upon being led to the guillotine, was overheard to actually have said: "No! No! No!...I said, 'let them eat ICE CREAM and cake!...ICE CREAM and cake!'"

The problem with the Christian is that he fails to see that "that which he is seeking is what is causing him to seek." He lost sight of the fact that, it is not just the historical Jesus who is recipient of the gifts of the Incarnation, but all of mankind. In other words, the gifts of the Incarnation have already been given, apriori, even before man is aware of it. What that means is that complete fulfillment is to be found in this eternal Present Moment, and not in some future time and place. Fulfillment means just that: life in the Present Moment is 100% complete. There is nothing to hope or strive for beyond what is given here and now.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus is from the Latin form of the Greek for: Iesous.
Iesous corresponds to the Hebrew Yeshua or Yehohshua.
Since the name of Christ Jesus was not in the Hebrew Scriptures why not use the Greek if one is not going to use the English?

After first-century Christianity ended, it was the wolf-like clergy class (Acts 20:29,30) that grew to be false or so-called Christianity to be like the weed-like ones of Matthew 13:25.

Often like today, it is the religious leaders that put words in Jesus mouth instead of listening to the words that came out of Jesus mouth in order to further their own agenda.
Mark 7:7,13; Matthew chapter 23.

 

[godnotgod]

Jesus is from the Latin form of the Greek for: Iesous.
Iesous corresponds to the Hebrew Yeshua or Yehohshua.
Since the name of Christ Jesus was not in the Hebrew Scriptures why not use the Greek if one is not going to use the English?

Here is why:

"Yeshua ben Yosef (or Yeshua bar Yosef) is the original Aramaic name for Jesus the Nazarene. His parents, siblings, disciples, and followers called him by that name. The name "Jesus" is a misspelling and mispronunciation that resulted from the translation of Yeshua's name after his death, first into the Greek Iesous (pronounced "ee-ay-SUS"), and then from the Greek Iesous into the Latin Iesus. No one during Yeshua's life (prior to 30 CE) ever uttered the name, "Jesus." The letter "j" wasn't in the English language until the seventeenth century, so even in English, no one spoke the name "Jesus" until after that time."

Yeshua and Jesus

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Here is why:

"Yeshua ben Yosef (or Yeshua bar Yosef) is the original Aramaic name for Jesus the Nazarene. His parents, siblings, disciples, and followers called him by that name. The name "Jesus" is a misspelling and mispronunciation that resulted from the translation of Yeshua's name after his death, first into the Greek Iesous (pronounced "ee-ay-SUS"), and then from the Greek Iesous into the Latin Iesus. No one during Yeshua's life (prior to 30 CE) ever uttered the name, "Jesus." The letter "j" wasn't in the English language until the seventeenth century, so even in English, no one spoke the name "Jesus" until after that time."

Yeshua and Jesus

Thank you for your reply. Since in present day 'Jesus' is the most common accepted name in English, then why not use it, or use the original for all of the other names? Jeremiah is quite different in English but no one seems to fuss about using the English for Jeremiah. Again thank you for your reply.

 

[godnotgod]

Thank you for your reply. Since in present day 'Jesus' is the most common accepted name in English, then why not use it, or use the original for all of the other names?

Because the problem is not in name only. Yeshua was not Jesus. He was transformed into "Jesus", by St. Paul and others, from the tip of his pen. When people use the name "Jesus", it carries with it certain meanings, one of which is the idea that he underwent a physical resurrection. Yeshua and his Essene followers did not believe in the resurrection of the body, only of the spirit. In addition, Yeshua was a vegetarian; he did not believe in animal, let alone human sacrifice as in the Crucifixion.

On top of all that, Yeshua spoke Aramaic, the language of the Pe****ta Bible, not Greek, the language of the later Greek NT. The meanings in the Aramaic Pe****ta are not the same as in the Greek. There is highly convincing evidence that the Greek texts were translated from the Aramaic, and not the other way around, since, for one thing, many Aramaic words have two and more meanings, while the Greek have only one. In Aramaic, the passages make complete sense, in Aramaic, but when the Greek scribes performed the translations, they had no clue of the double meanings, and only used the words they thought were correct. The result is that many of the passages either make no sense, or are poetically dead, Aramaic being a far more colorful tongue.

The modern Christian is actually a practitioner of Paulanity. It was Paul who brilliantly and singlehandedly synthesized and launched today's Christianity, by bringing together three elements: Jewish history, to lend an authentic background to the story, the Gnostic theme of the descending Logos from another realm to teach mankind, and that of a dying and resurrecting godman, which comes from his own childhood and of exposure to the mystery religions of the time:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity as a new religion which developed away from both normal Judaism and the Nazarene variety of Judaism. In this new religion, the Torah was abrogated as having had only temporary validity. The central myth of the new religion was that of an atoning death of a divine being. Belief in this sacrifice, and a mystical sharing of the death of the deity, formed the only path to salvation. Paul derived this religion from Hellenistic sources, chiefly by a fusion of concepts taken from Gnosticism and concepts taken from the mystery religions, particularly from that of Attis. The combination of these elements with features derived from Judaism, particularly the incorporation of the Jewish scriptures, reinterpreted to provide a background of sacred history for the new myth, was unique; and Paul alone was the creator of this amalgam. Jesus himself had no idea of it, and would have been amazed and shocked at the role assigned to him by Paul as a suffering deity. Nor did Paul have any predecessors among the Nazarenes though later mythography tried to assign this role to Stephen, and modern scholars have discovered equally mythical predecessors for Paul in a group called the 'Hellenists'. Paul, as the personal begetter of the Christian myth, has never been given sufficient credit for his originality. The reverence paid through the centuries to the great Saint Paul has quite obscured the more colourful features of his personality. Like many evangelical leaders, he was a compound of sincerity and charlatanry. Evangelical leaders of his kind were common at this time in the Greco-Roman world (e.g. Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana).[/FONT]"

The Problem of Paul

.....the followers of Yeshua had to convince the followers of Mithras that they should abandon Mithras and follow Yeshua.

Mithra's followers were promised immortality and he had been entombed and rose from the dead, proving that immortality was available to those who believed in him. The promise of immortality and his rising from the dead were also the central tenets of Yeshua's message as the early church promulgated it. Those weren't the central tenets of Yeshua's message as he gave it, but the early church was intent on converting people because they were certain Yeshua was going to return any minute to establish the Kingdom of God and as many people as possible needed to be converted to get them into the fold before the return. The promise to entice them to convert was eternal life in Yeshua's Kingdom of God.

But Mithras already promised eternal life in Mithras' Kingdom of God, so why should the Mithraites convert to following Yeshua? Paul and the other followers of Yeshua outside of the Jerusalem church took care of the problem. They just made some adjustments in the story of Yeshua's life so the pagan believers in Mithras would feel at home with the Jewish Messiah. In the earliest sources (Paul's letters, written around 50 CE to 65 CE, a very early gospel termed the Q source we know from sayings in Luke and Matthew that are not in Mark, written before 70 CE, and Mark, the earliest gospel, written just after 70 CE), there was no miraculous birth and only modest supernatural occurrences in Yeshua's life. By the time Matthew and Luke wrote their gospels (around 90 CE), the story was quite different; Yeshua had a host of supernatural events surrounding his birth and death. The question is, where did these events suddenly come from?

We find them in Mithras. The missionaries promoting Yeshua as the messiah for humankind simply wrote them into the narrations about Yeshua.

Paul and the Mystery Religions

 

[URAVIP2ME]

RE: that of a dying resurrecting godman

There is no Scripture ^ that says such a thing.

Scripture is consistent in stating that God resurrected Jesus.

 

[godnotgod]

RE: that of a dying resurrecting godman

There is no Scripture ^ that says such a thing.

Scripture is consistent in stating that God resurrected Jesus.

.....which is not the point. What is of importance here is the theme of resurrection of the body itself into a heavenly realm. Whether God raised the crucified host, or whether he raised himself up is completely irrelevant. Resurrection of the physical body was an idea prevalent in many cultures of that period, and was applied to many god men (Osiris, Attis, Mithras, etc, etc,.). Yeshua's mystic Essene cult gave no credence to bodily resurrection nor to blood sacrifice. This is consistent with the Buddhist (Theraputae) doctrines from the Far East which so heavily influenced the Nazorean Essenes which Yeshua led. St. Paul simply superimposed both themes over Yeshua's teachings and persona to create a new religion and a new persona which came to known as Jesus and Christianity.

What few people realize, is that the Essene teaching was a three-tiered affair, with initiates coming in on the first tier. These initiates had no understanding of the deeper inner meanings of the other two. When they broke with the Essenes to form early Christianity, they took with them only the first tier of the teaching. This first tier, coupled with St. Paul's overwriting of the teaching, became a superficial, evangelical, apocalyptic, and salvific doctrine for the masses. This is consistent with why new Essene initiates would come seeking relief from their suffering due to their ignorance. It is this set of doctines which was based upon belief and which became the orthodox teachings of Christianity. Mystical Essene practice, on the other hand, was not concerned with salvation so much as spiritual awakening, which only came about after penetrating into the second and third tiers. Mystic practice involves getting in touch directly with the living spirit, or gnosis; it is not so much belief about God, but direct union with God.

 

[Thief]

Better learn to play while the world is young.

Otherwise, your overly-rigid assembly might become unglued with the slightest laughter.

Remember, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy!"

I'm not making any jokes.
You will stand up at the hour of your death...in spirit...or you won't.
If you want to lay in your coffin and rot....go ahead.
I believe in life after death.
I will continue in spirit...God willing.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.....which is not the point. What is of importance here is the theme of resurrection of the body itself into a heavenly realm.

Huh? Doesn't 1st Corinthians 15:50 say: flesh and blood can Not inherit the kingdom of God?

Jesus did not resurrect himself. According to all Scripture God resurrected Jesus. Jesus existed in the heavenly spirit realm before coming to earth. At his resurrection Jesus was resurrected back in the spirit but at first Jesus stayed within the vicinity of the earth. Because he would have been invisible to his followers Jesus used different materialized human bodies in order to appear to them. After 40 days Jesus left the earthly scene without a human body. Jesus did Not take flesh and blood to heaven with him.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm not making any jokes.
You will stand up at the hour of your death...in spirit...or you won't.
If you want to lay in your coffin and rot....go ahead.
I believe in life after death.
I will continue in spirit...God willing.

According to Daniel (12:2,13) Daniel looked forward to 'standing up' at the end of the days. Daniel looked forward to that 'many' asleep in the dust of the ground would awaken to everlasting life.

So Daniel believed in life after death, but that the life after death would not occur right away. Or as Acts 24:15 says there 'is going to be' a resurrection.

That is why Jesus could liken that his friend Lazarus was just asleep in the grave until he would be resurrected days later. - John 11:11-14,
Martha (John 11:24) knew the grand-scale resurrection would not be until the 'last day' or the resurrection day of Jesus 1000-year rule over earth.

By age 12 Jesus knew well the Hebrew OT Scriptures, so Jesus was educated to know Solomon's words at Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 that the dead know nothing.
Jesus would have also known the Psalms such as: 6:5 that in death there is no remembrance; 13:3 the dead sleep the sleep of death; 115:17 the dead do not praise God; 146:4 at death thoughts perish.

This would have meant that Jesus believed that while he was buried in the grave (Acts 2:27,31) that he would be in a deep sleep-like state until God resurrected him days later although David (Acts 2:34 ) was still awaiting a resurrection.

 

[godnotgod]

I'm not making any jokes.
You will stand up at the hour of your death...in spirit...or you won't.

Joke or no-joke, the bottom line is that you know nothing of the sort. That is only your belief. The question is: what is that belief based upon?

"I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,
And in short, I was afraid."

TS Elliot, "The Love Song of J Alfred Prufrock"

If you want to lay in your coffin and rot....go ahead.
I believe in life after death.
I will continue in spirit...God willing.

When you are dead, there is no one to rot in any coffin. If "you" rot in your coffin, there is someone there. Only the corpse rots. Where is this "you" or "I' that lives, dies, and rots, or even goes on in "life after death"?

Have you found him yet? When you do, please do return and show him to me, OK? I'll bet he's a real cute feller.

You can believe anything you wish, even that there is a "you" that goes on after death and lives on in infamy. That does not make it true, and you won't know until you are dead. Howd'ya like them oranges?

Your ego is stubborn. It likes the adulation and attention. It does not want to die. It wants to go on forever. But your ego is a product of time and place. Die it must, for it cannot live where there is no time or place, and that is Eternity. Alas, you, like all the rest, will also rot away. Good, bad, and ugly; no one escapes. Not even Jesus. Thank Gawd!

Rotting is good. Without rot, life cannot exist. It is part of the cyclical functioning of the universe, of which you are but a temporary manifestation, a mere orange that is an outgrowth of the larger orange tree that is the Universe. Dig it!

You were born, therefore you shall die. That is a certainty. If you wish to get off the endless wheel of births and deaths, of coming and going, what can you do? Can you show me the path where there is no coming and there is no going?

The Human Route

"Coming empty-handed, going empty-handed -- that is human.
When you are born, where do you come from?
When you die, where do you go?
Life is like a floating cloud which appears.
Death is like a floating cloud which disappears.
The floating cloud itself originally does not exist.
Life and death, coming and going, are also like this.
But there is one thing which always remains clear.
It is pure and clear, not depending on life and death.
What is that one pure and clear thing?"

Zen Master Seung

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

When death comes, I'll be ready no matter where I am. Where will I be headed when I die? I'll let you know when I begin that journey. Just keep in mind that each journey begins with a single step. As I have not reached the point of death yet, I have no foresight to see what lies beyond that point of my journey.

 

[godnotgod]

Huh? Doesn't 1st Corinthians 15:50 say: flesh and blood can Not inherit the kingdom of God?

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15

[in other words, the dead bodies of mankind will be resurrected and transformed into bodies that will not rot]
*****

"Most denominations of Christian theology teach the concept of eternal life after death, provided through the atonement of Christ, thus it is generally believed that when a person's body dies, the soul is separated from the body and continues to exist forever. The term resurrection of the dead is generally used to refer to the idea that the dead bodies of all or some of humanity will be reformed and reanimated at the end of the world. This phrase is included at the end of the Nicene Creed. The Apostles' Creed explicitly ends with an affirmation of belief in "the resurrection of the body".

Those who hold it applies to all mankind also call it the General Resurrection, on the grounds that it involves mankind in general.

Various Christian sects disagree on the exact nature of the resurrection."

Wikipedia
*****

Assumption of Mary

"According to the belief of Christians of the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches and by some Anglicans, the Assumption of Mary was the bodily taking up of the Virgin Mary into Heaven at the end of her life. The Catholic Church teaches as dogma that Mary, "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory."[1] This doctrine was dogmatically and infallibly defined by Pope Pius XII on November 1, 1950, in his Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus. This belief is known as the Dormition by the Orthodox."

Wikipedia

Sounds pretty fleshy to me!

​

Jesus did not resurrect himself. According to all Scripture God resurrected Jesus.

► John 10:18

"No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

• Jesus says that the commandment was that He lay down His Life and that He take back His Life.

• If the command was that He willingly lay down His Life--that He also willingly take back His life?

• In order to obey a command it must be in ones power or ability to do so!

Jesus existed in the heavenly spirit realm before coming to earth. At his resurrection Jesus was resurrected back in the spirit but at first Jesus stayed within the vicinity of the earth. Because he would have been invisible to his followers Jesus used different materialized human bodies in order to appear to them. After 40 days Jesus left the earthly scene without a human body. Jesus did Not take flesh and blood to heaven with him.

Except for the very first sentence and the part about the 40 days, where is any of this in the Bible?

Luke 24:39

39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."


*****

Mark 16:14-19


14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.


19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.


[as far as I know, one must have a body in order to sit....uh....tell me...uh...exactly who is that sitting at the left hand of God?]
*****



The Christian doctrine of The Ascension holds that Jesus ascended to heaven in the presence of his Eleven Apostles following his resurrection, and that in heaven he sits at the right hand of God the Father.

The most influential account of the Ascension... is in Acts of the Apostles[1:1-11] where Jesus is taken up bodily into heaven forty days after his resurrection as witnessed by his apostles, after giving the Great Commission with a prophecy to

return.


Acts 1

Jesus Taken Up Into Heaven

9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.


10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."


The canonical account of Jesus ascending bodily into the clouds contrasts with the Gnostic tradition, by which Jesus was said to transcend the physical realm and return to his home in the spirit world.
*****


Yes, ladies and gentlemen, by all accounts, Christianity is THE religion of the FLESH, deny it though they try!

 

[Thief]

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15

[in other words, the dead bodies of mankind will be resurrected and transformed into bodies that will not rot]
*****

"Most denominations of Christian theology teach the concept of eternal life after death, provided through the atonement of Christ, thus it is generally believed that when a person's body dies, the soul is separated from the body and continues to exist forever. The term resurrection of the dead is generally used to refer to the idea that the dead bodies of all or some of humanity will be reformed and reanimated at the end of the world. This phrase is included at the end of the Nicene Creed. The Apostles' Creed explicitly ends with an affirmation of belief in "the resurrection of the body".

Those who hold it applies to all mankind also call it the General Resurrection, on the grounds that it involves mankind in general.

Various Christian sects disagree on the exact nature of the resurrection."

Wikipedia
*****

Assumption of Mary

"According to the belief of Christians of the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches and by some Anglicans, the Assumption of Mary was the bodily taking up of the Virgin Mary into Heaven at the end of her life. The Catholic Church teaches as dogma that Mary, "having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory."[1] This doctrine was dogmatically and infallibly defined by Pope Pius XII on November 1, 1950, in his Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus. This belief is known as the Dormition by the Orthodox."

Wikipedia

Sounds pretty fleshy to me!

​

► John 10:18

"No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."

• Jesus says that the commandment was that He lay down His Life and that He take back His Life.

• If the command was that He willingly lay down His Life--that He also willingly take back His life?

• In order to obey a command it must be in ones power or ability to do so!

Except for the very first sentence and the part about the 40 days, where is any of this in the Bible?

Luke 24:39

39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."


*****

Mark 16:14-19


14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.


19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.


[as far as I know, one must have a body in order to sit....uh....tell me...uh...exactly who is that sitting at the left hand of God?]
*****



The Christian doctrine of The Ascension holds that Jesus ascended to heaven in the presence of his Eleven Apostles following his resurrection, and that in heaven he sits at the right hand of God the Father.

The most influential account of the Ascension... is in Acts of the Apostles[1:1-11] where Jesus is taken up bodily into heaven forty days after his resurrection as witnessed by his apostles, after giving the Great Commission with a prophecy to

return.


Acts 1

Jesus Taken Up Into Heaven

9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.


10They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."


The canonical account of Jesus ascending bodily into the clouds contrasts with the Gnostic tradition, by which Jesus was said to transcend the physical realm and return to his home in the spirit world.
*****


Yes, ladies and gentlemen, by all accounts, Christianity is THE religion of the FLESH, deny it though they try!

There you go making assumptions...again.

God is spirit. The Sons of God are spirit.
The incorruptible body is spirit.
As for the Gospel accounts...not everyone believes them.

The flesh must be surrendered.
You will stand up in spirit...or rot in your grave.

 

[godnotgod]

When death comes, I'll be ready no matter where I am. Where will I be headed when I die? I'll let you know when I begin that journey. Just keep in mind that each journey begins with a single step. As I have not reached the point of death yet, I have no foresight to see what lies beyond that point of my journey.

Good man!:cigar:

What do you mean, "I'll be ready no matter where I am."? What does being ready entail? Will you always make certain you are wearing clean underwear?

St. Peter: "Yes, I see your name is here on the roster...Heavenly Heathen, eh?"
HH: "Uh...yes...that would be...me!"
St. Peter: "Very good, then....you may enter...."
HH: "Aw-right! (HH begins to rush ahead)
St. Peter: "....but first we need to do a drawer check....drop 'em"
HH: "....but..." (HH sheepiishly drops his skibbies...
St. Peter and the Heavenly Host: (gasping) "Heaven forbid...for Shame!...they're....OMG!...get out!"
HH: "but....I just washed them last week...."
St. Peter: "Downstairs with the rest of them!":rainbow1:


"Leave your soul slightly ajar in anticipation of the ecstatic moment"
Sufi saying