Debate a Muslim

[Polymath257]

Great. So in 2020 they started giving a 10 day leave for fathers. Great achievement. Many other countries were giving two weeks to a month way back in 1950's and are still continuing. So finally Switzerland caught up. So now its time to upgrade the leave to match with a Womans.

Great going. I wish you all the best in your future endeavours.

OK, now that is settled, let's deal with women being witnesses.

 

[viole]

Great. So in 2020 they started giving a 10 day leave for fathers. Great achievement. Many other countries were giving two weeks to a month way back in 1950's and are still continuing. So finally Switzerland caught up. So now its time to upgrade the leave to match with a Womans.

Great going. I wish you all the best in your future endeavours.

I don't know what you mean. We vote several times per year on basically everything. From wether cows should keep their horns, or Muslim women should keep their veil. My agreement rate with the rest is about 70% (I lost when I voted that cows should keep their horns, but won when I voted that women should show their faces). That means, I am on the losing side 3 times out of 10. Which is good. I would not have applied for Swiss citizenship if I did not have some agreement with the Volk here.

So, what? That is what direct democracy is all about.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Polymath257]

I don't know what you mean. We vote several times per year on basically everything. From wether cows should keep their horns, or Muslim women should keep their veil. My agreement rate with the rest is about 70% (I lost when I voted that cows should keep their horns, but won when I voted that women should show their faces). That means, I am on the losing side 3 times out of 10.

So, what? That is what direct democracy is all about.

Ciao

- viole

There is also the issue that a law that turns out to be bad or incomplete can be changed or refined later.

That isn't the case for religious doctrines.

 

[viole]

There is also the issue that a law that turns out to be bad or incomplete can be changed or refined later.

That isn't the case for religious doctrines.

Exactly. Religious doctrines are considered unchanging. Actually, they even believe that is evidence that they are true

Ciao

- viole

 

[Polymath257]

Exactly. Religious doctrines are considered unchanging. Actually, they even believe that is evidence that they are true

Ciao

- viole

When that is *precisely* the reason they are bad. They cannot be changed to suit the circumstances.

 

[firedragon]

I don't know what you mean. We vote several times per year on basically everything. From wether cows should keep their horns, or Muslim women should keep their veil. My agreement rate with the rest is about 70% (I lost when I voted that cows should keep their horns, but won when I voted that women should show their faces). That means, I am on the losing side 3 times out of 10. Which is good. I would not have applied for Swiss citizenship if I did not have some agreement with the Volk here.

So, what? That is what direct democracy is all about.

Ciao

- viole

Thats great. You live in a great country. Very good.

 

[firedragon]

When that is *precisely* the reason they are bad. They cannot be changed to suit the circumstances.

According to which school of thought is it not changeable or as you said "cannot be changed"?

 

[viole]

Thats great. You live in a great country. Very good.

Thanks. Where are you from? Iran?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Polymath257]

According to which school of thought is it not changeable or as you said "cannot be changed"?

Is it a religious dictate? And can you change the rules of religion?

And, if they can be changed, do you agree they should be?

Specifically, should one woman be allowed to be a witness without another woman as another witness?

 

[firedragon]

Is it a religious dictate? And can you change the rules of religion?

Haha. Yes yes.

Rules of "religion" can change, has changed, and can change in the future.

Islam was not known as a religion to Muslims until God really knows when. So even the use of the word Religion is not appropriate for islam. The real word for religion would be Milleth or/and madhab. This is the Fusha atthurath which means the old language of the Qur'an. The word Dheen used in the Qur'an doesnt mean religion. It is an English translation made to easily relate but the actual meaning is "system". The problem with this kind of thing is, just go through this thread and you will know, googling is everything. I know that googling is probably the only option but you should also know that it is extremely superficial and shallow. Well, you probably won't accept it anyway.

Nevermind that. Its irrelevant I suppose. I will speak from the traditional islamic perspective of religious scholars and their interpretations and inferences on the subject of Islam. Masaar atthaweel, is probably one of the oldest teachings in Islam. It means traveling or on the move, interpretation.

Later.

 

[viole]

- More disgustingly is your advocacy for child out-wed-lock open sex.

Well, at least Christians do not have a pedophile prophet (pbuh).

Ciao

- viole

 

[Polymath257]

Haha. Yes yes.

Rules of "religion" can change, has changed, and can change in the future.

Islam was not known as a religion to Muslims until God really knows when. So even the use of the word Religion is not appropriate for islam. The real word for religion would be Milleth or/and madhab. This is the Fusha atthurath which means the old language of the Qur'an. The word Dheen used in the Qur'an doesnt mean religion. It is an English translation made to easily relate but the actual meaning is "system". The problem with this kind of thing is, just go through this thread and you will know, googling is everything. I know that googling is probably the only option but you should also know that it is extremely superficial and shallow. Well, you probably won't accept it anyway.

Nevermind that. Its irrelevant I suppose. I will speak from the traditional islamic perspective of religious scholars and their interpretations and inferences on the subject of Islam. Masaar atthaweel, is probably one of the oldest teachings in Islam. It means traveling or on the move, interpretation.

Later.

OK, so do you think *this* rule concerning women as witnesses *should* be changed? And is there a way to change it under Islamic law?

 

[leroy]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. I don't know how this works, but here we go.

- You can post your objections (or questions) against Islam here – it's scripture, theology, philosophy, law, politics, spirituality, or history –, bring your best supportive arguments & a white flag (or a prayer mat) for future use.

Good luck!

According to Christianity Jesus died on the cross

According to Islam, Jesus didn’t die on the cross

So this is a relevant difference between both religions and I think history strongly supports the Christian view,

 

[Shakeel]

Nope. Do you?

Ciao

- viole

No, but I made no claims about them. I do know the animals are on average kept in bad conditions all their lives and suffer of a lot of stress - something which in halal slaughter should not be the case.

 

[viole]

No, but I made no claims about them. I do know the animals are on average kept in bad conditions all their lives and suffer of a lot of stress - something which in halal slaughter should not be the case.

Well, we believe we should get rid of both. Bad conditions, and Halal. That is not a competition of what is less inhuman.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Shakeel]

No, I just said that we rule over our government. We can rule over their decisions about maternity leave, in the same way we rule them over their position about minarets, or their position that women dressed like Batman are OK.

We, the Volk, are in command.

Ciao

- viole

Wait, are you taking personal responsibility over the oppression of Muslim women?

 

[Shakeel]

Well, we believe we should get rid of both. Bad conditions, and Halal. That is not a competition of what is less inhuman.

Ciao

- viole

And what is the reason you object to halal slaughter? Do you know how that works?

 

[viole]

Wait, are you taking personal responsibility over the oppression of Muslim women?

Do you ask if I voted to ban face covering in Switzerland (except during pandemics and carnival)? Yes. I also went celebrating with my girlfriends when we won.
I also voted for the ban on minarets.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

And what is the reason you object to halal slaughter? Do you know how that works?

No. But I heard it is pretty cruel.

Ciao

- viole

 

[firedragon]

And, if they can be changed, do you agree they should be?

Of course it should be.

Specifically, should one woman be allowed to be a witness without another woman as another witness?

Rationally, it would depend on a lot of things. This was not considered as "allowed" first of all. This is the way you have perceived because of propaganda. Islamic law came way, way, way before any of the ahadith were ever written down on this matter. There is one hadith from Bukhari's kuthub as sahih. That hadith speaks of women having half the value in testimony. This was narrated ultimately (apparently) after Bukhari died, by his unvouched for (In islamic tradition someone has to vouch for someone elses scholarship) student called Firabry. And the manuscript tradition dates to approximately the 14th century which is 700 years after Muhammed. Anyway, it is predominantly Christian evangelists who demonised this and you have inherited that. No doubt.

No one said "women are not allowed". It is the person who signs the contract who is told to get two women as witnesses if not one man. So saying "it is not allowed" is a twist in it. Of course, you will not accept it.

So the idea is that women and men are equal in Gods eyes. But they have differences biologically and sociologically. You will of course look at it from where ever you are. And in the future, maybe they will have a machine to take care of the child, maybe they will have other highly superior technology where you won't even have to step out of the house to vote. Maybe they will develop surrogate robots to represent you in courts. Well, in that case, this law is unnecessary.

At the moment if you go to lets say a place in Asia where in a village a mother gives birth at home or at the local government funded hospital. Then she gets 4 to 5 months maternity leave. The father if he is employed or is a farmer or a businessman will have no choice but to go to work. The mother has no choice but to stay at home. Baby has to be fed 10 or 12 times a day. They will not use diapers because it is not something they use. It is not in their culture. They will have a white cloth they will tie around the baby like a napkin folded in the form of a panty. They will have them washed by hand and hung on a line all over their backyard. It is a very very common problem when there is a court case, the woman is unable to make it. It is very very common. Just that some people in the city of high rise cannot empathise with this because their perspective is very limited.

So yes. These kind of laws can, and must change.