Debate a Muslim

[sun rise]

In which case nobody would have call it a miracle.
People woudl have said……….oh Jesus survived the cross, they woudl have not call it a resurrection.-

Sure they would have - he appeared to be dead. Whether he was truly dead or appeared to be dead is a matter of faith.

 

[epronovost]

Sure but not the kind of “resurrection” that would impress anyone.

Of course it impresses. Most people are completely uneducated, don't travel outside of the village of their birth and there is no such things as newspapers or stuff like that. Most people know nothing about medicine which is often associated with sorcery or first aid techniques. Imagine a person who sees another doing a bunch of strange action like "kissing" and "massaging" a corpse all the while praying and suddenly John's son who had drowned breathes and lives again. That's the sort of thing you would talk about for the rest of your life. That's amazing; a freakin' miracle. It's something that you didn't even knew was possible that just happened before your eyes like a cart rolling up hill (which is also a thing that can happen).

 

[leroy]

Sure they would have - he appeared to be dead. Whether he was truly dead or appeared to be dead is a matter of faith.

1 Jesus was crucified; this was a well-known method of execution.

2 to make sure, he was pinched with a spear

3 he was buried

4 everybody thought he was dead, including his family and close disciples

5 Jesus himself claimed to have resurrected (why would he lie)

The evidence for his death is conclusive,


In order to claim that Jesus didn’t die you would have to build a complex and weird “flat earth like” theory

1 somehow Jesus survived the cross and the spear

2 nobody noticed that we wisent dead

3 he survived for 3 days in a cold tomb, with all those injuries, without food, water nor medical attention

4 Jesus escaped from the tomb, somehow he moved the rock and punched the guards

5 Jesus lied to everybody and told them that he resurrected.

6 People believed him

Each of this points by itself is unlikely, to say that each of these points happened is ridiculous.

 

[firedragon]

Ever watched the documentary Slave in Dubai?

Too old. Todays data. This year? 2020??

 

[Rival]

Of course it impresses. Most people are completely uneducated, don't travel outside of the village of their birth and there is no such things as newspapers or stuff like that. Most people know nothing about medicine which is often associated with sorcery or first aid techniques. Imagine a person who sees another doing a bunch of strange action like "kissing" and "massaging" a corpse all the while praying and suddenly John's son who had drowned breathes and lives again. That's the sort of thing you would talk about for the rest of your life. That's amazing; a freakin' miracle. It's something that you didn't even knew was possible that just happened before your eyes like a cart rolling up hill (which is also a thing that can happen).

What about all the dead who apparently came out of their graves and started walking around? Was that not as impressive or..?

 

[epronovost]

What about all the dead who apparently came out of their graves and started walking around? Was that not as impressive or..?

Except nobody talks about it in any historical record. Not more than there is any historical record of Achilles being invisible except for a tiny weakness on his right heel.

 

[Rival]

Except nobody talks about it in any historical record. Not more than there is any historical record of Achilles being invisible except for a tiny weakness on his right heel.

I just find it odd how Christians go on about Jesus being resurrected but apparently all those other dudes who came out of their graves don't count

 

[epronovost]

Too old. Todays data. This year? 2020??

There are no data for 2020 as far as I know, data analysis are always a year or two passed. If you checked out on the links I provided to the latest data are from 2019 I believe. We might get 2020 data pretty soon though.

PS: why do you think data from the past decades are "too old"?

 

[firedragon]

data analysis are always a year or two passed.

Alright. Give me 2018/19

 

[epronovost]

I just find it odd how Christians go on about Jesus being resurrected but apparently all those other dudes who came out of their graves don't count

Indeed, if you were to accept claims of resurrection, Jesus is far from unique. Hell, half of his miracles were basically stuff that was done by prior prophets or which have their own versions in other mythology. Ancient Egyptians have the whole galore of resurrection, walking/separating water, making rain, taming savage beasts, healing the incurable, etc.

 

[epronovost]

Alright. Give me 2018/19

I already did. Do you want me to post it again?

Here it is for 2018

Country Data | Global Slavery Index

There is a little bit more recent stuff from Amnesty International, but it doesn't focus on slavery

Everything you need to know about human rights in United Arab Emirates

All in all, there has been little studies conducted on the subject recently. There was a surge of study from 2006 to 2012 (when the documentary Slaves in Dubai was released), but not a whole lot in the last 5 years or so. Most of the focus has been on the world's largest economies and some sub-Saharan countries which were critically unresearched before that.

 

[firedragon]

I already did. Do you want me to post it again?

Here it is for 2018

Country Data | Global Slavery Index

There is a little bit more recent stuff from Amnesty International, but it doesn't focus on slavery

Everything you need to know about human rights in United Arab Emirates

All in all, there has been little studies conducted on the subject recently. There was a surge of study from 2006 to 2012 (when the documentary Slaves in Dubai was released), but not a whole lot in the last 5 years or so. Most of the focus has been on the world's largest economies and some sub-Saharan countries which were critically unresearched before that.

1. So how many people are not allowed exit as you said?
2. How many peoples passports have been taken and forcefully kept by mandate?
3. What is the comparison with other countries? Like Italy, U.S, China, Russia, UK, India, Israel, South Africa, etc?

 

[epronovost]

1. So how many people are not allowed exit as you said?
2. How many peoples passports have been taken and forcefully kept by mandate?
3. What is the comparison with other countries? Like Italy, U.S, China, Russia, UK, India, Israel, South Africa, etc?

I just gave you a resources with all of those information, but okay. I'll break it down. There are approximately 15 000 people in the UAE living in slavery or 1.67 person per 1000 as a proportion. The most common way to keep people into slavery is for their employer to seize the passports of migrant workers. Another popular technique is to illegaly charge foreign worker an immigration fee that must then be reimbursed. This is technically against the law in the UAE, but there isn't enough enforcement of such rule nor enough oversight from the government and major businesses to not deal with agency or proxies that do such practices. About 65% of those 15 000 people are forced workers. The rest are people forced into marriage.

How does the UAE compare to other countries. The level of vulnerability of the UAE to slavery is of 26.80 out of 100; so quite good. If we compare it to the US; the US has a level of vulnerability of 15.88 out of 100 though there is a LOT more slaves in raw numbers in the US then in the UAE with approximately 400 000 slaves in the US or 1.26 person per 1000 (so a lower proportion). If you want to compare it to another Middle Eastern country, like Israel for example, the UAE compares much more favorably. Israel has a much higher level of vulnerability at 36.42 and a larger proportion of slaves to its general population at around 3.86 per 1000. If you want to compare it to a western European country, like France for example, the UAE is much more vulnerable than the 5th Republic, which scores at around 15.26 out of 100, though there are more slaves in France per capita at 2.01 per 1000. This is due to the fact that the French government is very good at dismantling slave-traders organization and rescuing slaves, but the migrant crisis generated by the war in Libya, Mali and Syria has increased the number of very vulnerable people trying to flee to France using dubious sources. If we compare it to Australia, the UAE compares very poorly since Australia has a ridiculously small vulnerability at 4.27/100 and almost no slaves on its territory 0.65 per 1000. If we compare the UAE to a East European country like Russia, it emerges much better. Russia's vulnerability is almost twice higher and has five times the number of slaves per capita though it's also twice poorer unlike the precedent examples which were about as wealthy. Compared to China, the UAE emerges much better since both Russia and China have similar numbers with China coming out a bit better. The same goes for South Africa which has a smidge better than Russia, but worst than China despite being poorer than both those countries. It's per capita number of slaves is lower than of both those countries. South Africa is the case of a country with too little resources to tackle the problem, but honest intentions. The single worst country in the world is, without much surprise, Eritrea also colloquially known as "Africa's North Korea". Its the 10th poorest country in the world and ruled by one of the most oppressive regime there is.

 

[Aupmanyav]

2 The historical evidence shows that appeared after he died.

There is no historical evidence for that except mention in Bible, and it is a myth and not historical evidence.

 

[firedragon]

I just gave you a resources with all of those information, but okay. I'll break it down. There are approximately 15 000 people in the UAE living in slavery or 1.67 person per 1000 as a proportion. The most common way to keep people into slavery is for their employer to seize the passports of migrant workers. Another popular technique is to illegaly charge foreign worker an immigration fee that must then be reimbursed. This is technically against the law in the UAE, but there isn't enough enforcement of such rule nor enough oversight from the government and major businesses to not deal with agency or proxies that do such practices. About 65% of those 15 000 people are forced workers. The rest are people forced into marriage.

How does the UAE compare to other countries. The level of vulnerability of the UAE to slavery is of 26.80 out of 100; so quite good. If we compare it to the US; the US has a level of vulnerability of 15.88 out of 100 though there is a LOT more slaves in raw numbers in the US then in the UAE with approximately 400 000 slaves in the US or 1.26 person per 1000 (so a lower proportion). If you want to compare it to another Middle Eastern country, like Israel for example, the UAE compares much more favorably. Israel has a much higher level of vulnerability at 36.42 and a larger proportion of slaves to its general population at around 3.86 per 1000. If you want to compare it to a western European country, like France for example, the UAE is much more vulnerable than the 5th Republic, which scores at around 15.26 out of 100, though there are more slaves in France per capita at 2.01 per 1000. This is due to the fact that the French government is very good at dismantling slave-traders organization and rescuing slaves, but the migrant crisis generated by the war in Libya, Mali and Syria has increased the number of very vulnerable people trying to flee to France using dubious sources. If we compare it to Australia, the UAE compares very poorly since Australia has a ridiculously small vulnerability at 4.27/100 and almost no slaves on its territory 0.65 per 1000. If we compare the UAE to a East European country like Russia, it emerges much better. Russia's vulnerability is almost twice higher and has five times the number of slaves per capita though it's also twice poorer unlike the precedent examples which were about as wealthy. Compared to China, the UAE emerges much better since both Russia and China have similar numbers with China coming out a bit better. The same goes for South Africa which has a smidge better than Russia, but worst than China despite being poorer than both those countries. It's per capita number of slaves is lower than of both those countries. South Africa is the case of a country with too little resources to tackle the problem, but honest intentions. The single worst country in the world is, without much surprise, Eritrea also colloquially known as "Africa's North Korea". Its the 10th poorest country in the world and ruled by one of the most oppressive regime there is.

You actually didnt substantiate what you claimed about not allowing workers to leave and forcefully keeping their passports. I think you are unable to.

Anyway, with all that you put up above, why demoniser the UAE because they are Muslim?

 

[epronovost]

You actually didnt substantiate what you claimed about not allowing workers to leave and forcefully keeping their passports. I think you are unable to.

I actually did. It's mentioned in the Wikipedia article I linked you, the Amnesty International report and the Human Rights Watch recommendations I also linked you. It's also one of the main points of the Slaves in Dubai documentary. The Global Slavery Index also underline it as a point of weakness of the UAE in its analysis (its under milestone 4 1.6.9 in reference to the kafala system).

All that to say I think I have provided you a mountain of proofs that there is a such a thing as modern slavery and that the countries of the Arabic Peninsula are quite vulnerable to it despite the fact they are amongst the richest nations in the world.

Anyway, with all that you put up above, why demoniser the UAE because they are Muslim?

I didn't "demonize" the UAE because they are Muslim. I "demonize" the UAE because its a dictatorship with a terrible human rights record. It doesn't treat migrant workers, women, children, prisoners and most of its population with dignity. Not all Muslim country or Muslim people have this sort of problem, but its true that the UAE isn't alone with this problem or even the worst at it. I also didn't bring the spotlight on the UAE (you simply asked so many questions about that specific country since I assume you live or come from there), but pointed the finger more actively at Qatar due the World Cup situation.

 

[firedragon]

It's also one of the main points of the Slaves in Dubai documentary.

Very old news as I said.

This is the problem with making such profound statements without knowing the reality. No one can keep a passport in the UAE. It is illegal. It was made illegal I think maybe many years ago. So its wrong to say that they are keeping passports, they are not allowed to leave, etc etc. So knowing this is old news, dont repeat it again and again.

If the government knows anyone is keeping a passport in the UAE they will face serious consequences. No body is perfect. No country is perfect. Just because these people are Muslim you demonised them and said many things you have only researched after you said it.

I didn't "demonize" the UAE because they are Muslim. I "demonize" the UAE because its a dictatorship with a terrible human rights record. It doesn't treat migrant workers, women, children, prisoners and most of its population with dignity. Not all Muslim country or Muslim people have this sort of problem, but its true that the UAE isn't alone with this problem or even the worst at it. I also didn't bring the spotlight on the UAE (you simply asked so many questions about that specific country since I assume you live or come from there), but pointed the finger more actively at Qatar due the World Cup situation.

Of course you assume many things about a person because they speak of one country you pulled up. This seems to be a pattern of people who have these kind of biases and some kind of hatred that will blind them. Lol. Let me show you how someone can make assumptions. Like you "assumed" I live in the UAE because your bias was taken up, I can ask you "Why are you speaking about the UAE and demonising them? Is it because you were chased out or something or applied for a job and didn't get it?". That is a very bad habit. I am sure you are just having a particular perception because of the internet. A lot of people do. But see, I will not ask questions like that because that is not the character I appreciate. You probably are who you are and I dont know if you are a billionaire who can buy over a country for yourself. I have no clue. So making such assumptions is pretty low.

You have no clue of what you are talking about, and are simply driven by your bias. So you will first start with that premise, then go about looking for anything to support your bias. Many people are doing that.

Typically, any analytical person will work the other way around. Its exploratory in approach.

 

[firedragon]

Of course it impresses. Most people are completely uneducated, don't travel outside of the village of their birth and there is no such things as newspapers or stuff like that. Most people know nothing about medicine which is often associated with sorcery or first aid techniques. Imagine a person who sees another doing a bunch of strange action like "kissing" and "massaging" a corpse all the while praying and suddenly John's son who had drowned breathes and lives again. That's the sort of thing you would talk about for the rest of your life. That's amazing; a freakin' miracle. It's something that you didn't even knew was possible that just happened before your eyes like a cart rolling up hill (which is also a thing that can happen).

You never know. If CPR was there in China, it could be that someone may have had something in Palestine. Maybe its not very highly probable, but its possible.

 

[epronovost]

You never know. If CPR was there in China, it could be that someone may have had something in Palestine. Maybe its not very highly probable, but its possible.

It probably was. There was healers in every society, but it wasn't common knowledge. Medicine was a mysterious discipline to the overwhelming majority of people. Even in China or other societies where we found extensive treaties on medicine dating back from Antiquity, the average person was a poor peasant for whom those things were completely unknown. Even for experts in medicine in Antiquity, their own trade was filled with supernatural processes and explanation like alchemy, spiritual energy, evil spirits and the like.

 

[firedragon]

It probably was. There was healers in every society, but it wasn't common knowledge. Medicine was a mysterious discipline to the overwhelming majority of people. Even in China or other societies where we found extensive treaties on medicine dating back from Antiquity, the average person was a poor peasant for whom those things were completely unknown. Even for experts in medicine in Antiquity, their own trade was filled with supernatural processes and explanation like alchemy, spiritual energy, evil spirits and the like.

True.