Debate a Muslim

[epronovost]

Very old news as I said.

It was published in 2012, less then 10 years ago. That's not very old

This is the problem with making such profound statements without knowing the reality. No one can keep a passport in the UAE. It is illegal. It was made illegal I think maybe many years ago. So its wrong to say that they are keeping passports, they are not allowed to leave, etc etc. So knowing this is old news, dont repeat it again and again.

If the government knows anyone is keeping a passport in the UAE they will face serious consequences. No body is perfect. No country is perfect. Just because these people are Muslim you demonised them and said many things you have only researched after you said it.

It was already illegal (since 2007) so before the documentary you dismissed as "to old" was filmed. It keeps being practiced despite being illegal because, as demonstrated by three of my sources, the enforcement of those laws are inadequate. The sources I provided you confirmed this. This is the main problem in the UAE, too little actions from the government to stop slavery despite having laws on the book that prohibits it. Stop deflecting and minimizing the issue. The UAE, unlike many other countries in the region, is extremely wealthy, isn't at war and has a stable government. It has no excuses to rank so lowly when we take into account those factors. It could easily outperform France for example.

Of course you assume many things about a person because they speak of one country you pulled up.

I pulled up Qatar, you asked plenty of questions about the UAE, but none about Qatar or any other Muslim majority country. These two were just examples to my main point. All Middle Eastern countries have more or less serious problems with slavery most of which comes from foreign worker (except notably in Bangladesh and Pakistan and a few others). The UAE is one of the better one in the region, but still pretty bad (and under studied). Situation is a lot worst in Pakistan for example.

You have no clue of what you are talking about, and are simply driven by your bias. So you will first start with that premise, then go about looking for anything to support your bias. Many people are doing that.

Excuse me? I provided you with plenty of sources to defend my position that many Muslim majority countries like Qatar and the UAE have a serious problem of slavery, especially slavery of foreign workers and then provided you with half a dozen respected sources on the subject. You didn't seem to have read half of them since I had to chew them for you. That entire comment of yours seems to show an ugly bias from you. You laughed at a reality, were shown that it was indeed real and now attempt to dismiss it without quoting any relevant source and now accuse me of being biased in saying the truth about a sad social reality. You accuse me of demonizing because they are Muslim without any proof of the thing and without even acknowledging that my accusation are in line with the data on the subject from respected sources. You assume that any criticism of a Muslim country (or countries) is derived from prejudice toward Muslim and not from acknowledgement of problematics. It's a dishonest tactic and an attempt to "poison the well".

 

[firedragon]

It was published in 2012, less then 10 years ago. That's not very old

Not in the country you are talking about. They are very very very new. But of course if you intend only to demonise them you will not accept anything that hinders you.

It was already illegal (since 2007) so before the documentary you dismissed as "to old" was filmed.

Great. So you finally did some googling. Good for you. You should have done that prior to making those statements about Muslims and the UAE as your tool. Nevertheless, its still old. If it was illegal prior to that, they should be blamed for not implementing their law properly. But yeah, now they do better.

I pulled up Qatar, you asked plenty of questions about the UAE

Because see, unlike you who makes facade claims prior to knowing the subject, I will talk deeper about a subject I know better. I dont know much about Qatar, but I know about the UAE. So I will talk about them. For example, I dont know much about Eritrea which is a Christian majority country which I know a little bit about, but I know the United States much better. So I will talk about the U.S. I dont know much about the African continent much but I know the asian continent better. I may not talk much about a religion like Ayyanayaka or maybe some red Indians native religions, and I will speak about Christianity much better because I know the subject much better. That does not make me a Christian.

None of this means I am from somewhere. I dont care where you are from, as long as you are a decent human being and speaks what you know and have studied.

Excuse me? I provided you with plenty of sources to defend my position

No you didnt.

1. How many in the UAE have their passports kept?
2. How many in the uAE are forbidden to leave
3. you provided yourself many other countries who are not muslim who were worse than the UAE by far.

2 questions you have not answered yet. And the third point you proved yourself. So your genetic fallacy and the anti muslim bias was proven, but not what you claimed which are these three points.

Have a good day.

 

[epronovost]

Not in the country you are talking about.

How could a documentary produced in 2012 could have been released earlier than 2012? Later, certainly, but not prior. The documentary

Slaves of Dubai

Great. So you finally did some googling. Good for you. You should have done that prior to making those statements about Muslims and the UAE as your tool. Nevertheless, its still old. If it was illegal prior to that, they should be blamed for not implementing their law properly. But yeah, now they do better.

I already knew that. That's why I said, as did all of my sources, that the UAE doesn't implement its laws with rigor and keeps many of its laws on foreign worker vulnerable to exploitation when it comes. I mentioned it clearly in post #553 and all of my sources mentioned it clearly to had you read them. You are being dishonest by actively ignoring large stretches of what I say and for not reading my sources. You would also know that I already quoted an article on Human Rights in the UAE that mentioned this information, but you didn't read it. It was also mentioned as a recommendation, with several other points in Human Rights Watch report the the government of the UAE, but you didn't read this one either.

1. How many in the UAE have their passports kept?
2. How many in the uAE are forbidden to leave
3. you provided yourself many other countries who are not muslim who were worse than the UAE by far.

2 questions you have not answered yet. And the third point you proved yourself. So your genetic fallacy and the anti muslim bias was proven, but not what you claimed which are these three points.

Have a good day.

I already did. I gave you the break down, but it seems that you have trouble with mathematics so I'll do it for you.

First there around 15 000 slaves in the UAE. Around 65% are forced workers. The rest are in forced marriage situation. 65% of 15 000 is around 9750 person. Those forced workers cannot leave their employers (and thus the country) either because their passport has been seized or a crippled with immigration debts, two practices illegal under the UAE law, but so weakly enforced almost 10 000 at minimum suffer from it. Not being able to leave your employer is a precondition to be considered a forced worker.

That other non-Muslim country are worst, doesn't mean Muslim country are bad and thus deserving of criticism. In the case of the UAE, money, stability and peace aren't obstacles. Of course Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Yemen have atrocious records compared to the UAE (or basically almost anybody else), but these are expected from country torn apart by war and impoverished. The same holds true for Eritrea for example which is one of the poorest country in the world, is in a state of quasi war with Ethiopia and with a tyrannical, completely corrupt and incompetent government at its head. Qatar and the UAE are rich, peaceful and stable countries. They don't have excuses. They could and should do just as well if not better than wealthy European, North American, Oceanian democracies.

 

[firedragon]

How could a documentary produced in 2012 could have been released earlier than 2012?

Good question. Who said that?

I already knew that. That's why I said, as did all of my sources, that the UAE doesn't

Didnt.

I already did.

No you didnt.

That other non-Muslim country are worst, doesn't mean Muslim country are bad and thus deserving of criticism.

Thats not the question Your form was "UAE is bad because they are muslim". Thats the definition of bigotry. And it shows with your manner of handling non muslim countries.

 

[epronovost]

Thats not the question Your form was "UAE is bad because they are muslim". Thats the definition of bigotry. And it shows with your manner of handling non muslim countries.

Quote the passage where I claim the "UAE is bad because they are Muslim" instead of "the UAE is bad because its a dictatorship with human rights record, has a problem of slavery that isn't excusable due to poverty, war and instability". Without any quote showing it clearly, you are throwing accusations in the air and showing only your bigotry and your incapacity to tolerate criticism of some Muslim States by people who aren't Muslims.

PS: I did provide you the number, now twice. Do I get an acknowledgment that this has been done or will you deflect again. Will you also acknowledge that my critique of the UAE is based on the inaction of the government to enforce its laws despite having the means to do it or will you also refuse to acknowledge that?

 

[Shakeel]

Of course it impresses. Most people are completely uneducated, don't travel outside of the village of their birth and there is no such things as newspapers or stuff like that. Most people know nothing about medicine which is often associated with sorcery or first aid techniques. Imagine a person who sees another doing a bunch of strange action like "kissing" and "massaging" a corpse all the while praying and suddenly John's son who had drowned breathes and lives again. That's the sort of thing you would talk about for the rest of your life. That's amazing; a freakin' miracle. It's something that you didn't even knew was possible that just happened before your eyes like a cart rolling up hill (which is also a thing that can happen).

I don't know. I think you might underestimate the people before you. I think they'd be insulted by how little you think of them.

 

[firedragon]

Quote the passage where I claim the "UAE is bad because they are Muslim"

Go back to the original post of yours which was questioned. Why did you bring the UAE up? Consider it.

Peace.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Go back to the original post of yours which was questioned. Why did you bring the UAE up? Consider it.

Peace.

Here is my problem. If we go for the standard of no true Scotsman, then there are no problems with any ideology, because any problem of any ideology is not a part of the ideology.
In effect there is no wrong with X, because anything done in the name of X, is not a part of X, because I am the Objective, Rational and True source of understanding X.

Peace

 

[Marcion]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. I don't know how this works, but here we go.

- You can post your objections (or questions) against Islam here – it's scripture, theology, philosophy, law, politics, spirituality, or history –, bring your best supportive arguments & a white flag (or a prayer mat) for future use.

Good luck!

Thanks!
I have no objections to Islam whatsoever (and I wouldn't dare) and I even like Sufism a lot.

There are some things about Islam that puzzle me though.

* Muslims are mostly not vegetarians, they kill innocent animals for food. Why is this acceptable to muslims?
* The Islamic Shariah law seems quite cruel and feels like a type of revenge. Is it part of Islam to take revenge?
* Allah is the Almighty and surely beyond place and time and yet muslims are instructed to pray to Allah in the direction of one particular spot on earth. Would Allah demand that of muslims and why is that needed?
* Islam does not prescribe meditation or yoga asana's (postures) as a means to serve or find Allah. Their form of prayer however seems like a mixture of half prostration to Allah (and in a worldly direction) as a ritual submission and also a very simple short form of yogic asana's. Why not go all the way and do proper (full) prostration to Allah, proper yogic asana's or even proper meditation?
* Muslims are advised to do pilgrimage to Mecca and do a collective ritual turning around a stone. This ritual seems to be a remnant of a similar Indian type of ritual turning in the same direction around a stone phallus ("lingam") which symbolizes Shiva (God). Why, if Allah is Almighty and not to be objectified, is there any need to go on pilgrimage and perform a ritual around a special or holy stone on a fixed spot? Is this not also a type of stone or image worship?

 

[firedragon]

Here is my problem. If we go for the standard of no true Scotsman, then there are no problems with any ideology, because any problem of any ideology is not a part of the ideology.
In effect there is no wrong with X, because anything done in the name of X, is not a part of X, because I am the Objective, Rational and True source of understanding X.

Peace

VERY GOOD.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

VERY GOOD.

I am glad that we have established that I am the True, Objective, Rational source of X and since the world is X, I have the correct understanding, because I say so.

 

[leroy]

There is no historical evidence for that except mention in Bible, and it is a myth and not historical evidence.

ok and why would you say that the Bible is myth rather than history?

 

[firedragon]

I am glad that we have established that I am the True, Objective, Rational source of X and since the world is X, I have the correct understanding, because I say so.

Very good. All yours.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

ok and why would you say that the Bible is myth rather than history?

Because we don't know with history if Jesus lived at all and if Jesus lived, the historical Jesus is the Biblical Jesus. For that you need belief and faith.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Very good. All yours.

So Now I declare that you are the True, Rational and Objective source of understanding Islam, because you say so and you can decide all cases of a not True Muslim.

 

[firedragon]

* Muslims are mostly not vegetarians, they kill innocent animals for food. Why is this acceptable to muslims?

If you are a vegetarian, and you dont like people eating meat, its your prerogative. If you think you should have a debate whether you are in a higher moral ground or something because you are a vegetarian, it should be done extensively. New thread.

* The Islamic Shariah law seems quite cruel and feels like a type of revenge. Is it part of Islam to take revenge?

Which Shariah are you speaking about? Be specifics please. What is your epistemology? This is too vague of a statement rather than a question.

* Allah is the Almighty and surely beyond place and time and yet muslims are instructed to pray to Allah in the direction of one particular spot on earth. Would Allah demand that of muslims and why is that needed?

It is not necessarily needed because in the Quran it states very clearly that It is not al Bir or righteousness to turn in this direction or that, whats important is to do a lot of actions stipulated in it. It is not a need. The direction of prayer for muslims is a unification of human beings, not a need of God.

* Islam does not prescribe meditation or yoga asana's (postures) as a means to serve or find Allah. Their form of prayer however seems like a mixture of half prostration to Allah (and in a worldly direction) as a ritual submission and also a very simple short form of yogic asana's. Why not go all the way and do proper (full) prostration to Allah, proper yogic asana's or even proper meditation?

It doesnt say "dont do yoga either". So why not type of questions can start there, then another person will come and ask why not practice chi gong, body building, wushu, or even kalari. So anyone can do all of this if they want. But "why not do this or that" is irrelevant to questioning a particular theology.

* Muslims are advised to do pilgrimage to Mecca and do a collective ritual turning around a stone. This ritual seems to be a remnant of a similar Indian type of ritual turning in the same direction around a stone phallus ("lingam") which symbolizes Shiva (God). Why, if Allah is Almighty and not to be objectified, is there any need to go on pilgrimage and perform a ritual around a special or holy stone on a fixed spot? Is this not also a type of stone or image worship?

No. Someone taught you wrong. Muslims are not advised to do a "ritual turning around a stone".

You have to question your sources of knowledge. Your questions are loaded.

peace.

 

[Aupmanyav]

ok and why would you say that the Bible is myth rather than history?

Start from God snapping his fingers for six days, creating man from mud to creating woman from his rib, what else Bible be other than a book of myths?

Because we don't know with history if Jesus lived at all and if Jesus lived, the historical Jesus is the Biblical Jesus. For that you need belief and faith.

Hi, Mikkel, you were missing for some time. Welcome back.

 

[firedragon]

Thank you. You have managed to evade my questions or you have answered them with fallacies.
So my questions remain questions. Perhaps some other muslims will be able to answer them and satisfy my curiosity.
Thank you for your efforts all the same.
Namaskar!

I thought you were asking questions, not making statements expecting others to say "yes sir".

Your questions are loaded. Fallacious. Your knowledge is absolutely false. I mean, not just ignorant, I mean you have learned from the wrong sources.

So its upto you if that is your way. Attamannah laka yawm jayd.

 

[leroy]

Because we don't know with history if Jesus lived at all and if Jesus lived, the historical Jesus is the Biblical Jesus. For that you need belief and faith.

history? please define what you mean by history

 

[leroy]

Start from God snapping his fingers for six days, creating man from mud to creating woman from his rib, what else Bible be other than a book of myths?Hi, Mikkel, you were missing for some time. Welcome back.

so the Bible is myth (rather than history) because it contains miracles? is that your claim?