Debate a Muslim

[epronovost]

But the verse doesnt say that. Some Muslims interpret it to mean that at the time the witnesses are called for testimony when there is a future dispute since this is a money matter, a woman can get pregnant, or she could be feeding a child, she maybe in labour which are all things not possible for men biologically. So this woman may not be able to come. Thats why two women should be there to witness a financial transaction on record.

That seems like a odd excuse. A man could be absent following an injury or disease, out on a business trip, busy taking care of his farm, taking care of his young children. Pregnant women can do all sorts of things. One of my sister is actively working while being pregnant of her first child. Pregnancy doesn't make you incapable of moving or understanding paperwork. Why prudence for one and not the other?

 

[Meow Mix]

Sis. What you read on the internet is bogus apologetics. The way you worded your question is testimony of your epistemic catastrophe.

Anyway, there are many Muslims around the world who believe the mans say is final. There are many muslims who think women are stupid by nature. But if you go deeper into sociology of religion, this is a causality, not a correlation of societal baggage, and it is universal to all people in the world. For example, in some Buddhist societies the women are considered child bearers and the men are the masters. What?? Where did that come from? Does Buddhism teach anything of the sort? Well, that's a whole other discussion I suppose.

I know that different people within a belief have different beliefs about things, I was asking an individual what his thoughts were. ^.^

Lets go to the ontology, and since this thread is about Islam, I will discuss the Qur'an with you.

1. NO. The man does not have the last word in "family discussions". There is nothing of the sort in the Qur'an, but the Quran says "Among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquillity and contentment with each other. He places in your heart love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are signs for people who think." (30:21)

But of course if you search the internet for "misogyny in Quran" or something you would find verses that helps you with that picture. This is nature apologetics and evangelism. You will find websites that help you with demonising this theology. No problem. Maybe a thread on this is good. But of course some people are there in this forum who would say "no no. I think this verse says women are stupid" and end with their justification which is "in my opinion". You will see.

I have seen both sides, just as I have seen sexist Christians and non-sexist Christians, and so on. I'm aware.

2. NO. There is a verse that says "bring a witness from the males and two from the females". There are two ways people interpret this. Non-Muslims generally make this "a woman is stupid" so her witness is only half of a man. They have made a mathematical division of two women and one man and come to that very convenient conclusion because of course it helps their cause. There are some Muslims who also come up with the same conclusion because they probably like their women to think they are stupid to fill their ego.

But the verse doesnt say that. Some Muslims interpret it to mean that at the time the witnesses are called for testimony when there is a future dispute since this is a money matter, a woman can get pregnant, or she could be feeding a child, she maybe in labour which are all things not possible for men biologically. So this woman may not be able to come. Thats why two women should be there to witness a financial transaction on record.

So, what if an infertile woman, or a gay woman, shows up to witness a financial transaction? Is her testimony alone good enough?

 

[oldbadger]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. I don't know how this works, but here we go.

- You can post your objections (or questions) against Islam here – it's scripture, theology, philosophy, law, politics, spirituality, or history –, bring your best supportive arguments & a white flag (or a prayer mat) for future use.

Good luck!

Hello Ghazaly... it's ok here.
I'm a Deist. That just means that (I think that) everything is a part of God, but all so vast and massive that the only Boss around here is Mother Nature.

Question: There are differing Muslims. I know of Shia, Sunny and Amadija (spelling?) Muslims. Which are you?

 

[Tiberius]

2. NO. There is a verse that says "bring a witness from the males and two from the females". There are two ways people interpret this. Non-Muslims generally make this "a woman is stupid" so her witness is only half of a man. They have made a mathematical division of two women and one man and come to that very convenient conclusion because of course it helps their cause. There are some Muslims who also come up with the same conclusion because they probably like their women to think they are stupid to fill their ego.

But the verse doesnt say that. Some Muslims interpret it to mean that at the time the witnesses are called for testimony when there is a future dispute since this is a money matter, a woman can get pregnant, or she could be feeding a child, she maybe in labour which are all things not possible for men biologically. So this woman may not be able to come. Thats why two women should be there to witness a financial transaction on record.

Okay, so if that's not why you needs two women witnesses, then why? I find myself unconvinced by your attempted explanation. After all, it says that two women are needed to provide witness. It doesn't say, "You only need a witness statement from one woman, but you better be prepared and have two women witnesses ready to go just in case one woman can't make it."

It also assumes that there's nothing that could happen to make a male witness unavailable.

So yeah, there still seems to be a huge double standard there, regardless of your claims to the contrary.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Sis. What you read on the internet is bogus apologetics. The way you worded your question is testimony of your epistemic catastrophe.

Anyway, there are many Muslims around the world who believe the mans say is final. There are many muslims who think women are stupid by nature. But if you go deeper into sociology of religion, this is a causality, not a correlation of societal baggage, and it is universal to all people in the world. For example, in some Buddhist societies the women are considered child bearers and the men are the masters. What?? Where did that come from? Does Buddhism teach anything of the sort? Well, that's a whole other discussion I suppose.

Lets go to the ontology, and since this thread is about Islam, I will discuss the Qur'an with you.

1. NO. The man does not have the last word in "family discussions". There is nothing of the sort in the Qur'an, but the Quran says "Among His signs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquillity and contentment with each other. He places in your heart love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are signs for people who think." (30:21)

But of course if you search the internet for "misogyny in Quran" or something you would find verses that helps you with that picture. This is nature apologetics and evangelism. You will find websites that help you with demonising this theology. No problem. Maybe a thread on this is good. But of course some people are there in this forum who would say "no no. I think this verse says women are stupid" and end with their justification which is "in my opinion". You will see.

2. NO. There is a verse that says "bring a witness from the males and two from the females". There are two ways people interpret this. Non-Muslims generally make this "a woman is stupid" so her witness is only half of a man. They have made a mathematical division of two women and one man and come to that very convenient conclusion because of course it helps their cause. There are some Muslims who also come up with the same conclusion because they probably like their women to think they are stupid to fill their ego.

But the verse doesnt say that. Some Muslims interpret it to mean that at the time the witnesses are called for testimony when there is a future dispute since this is a money matter, a woman can get pregnant, or she could be feeding a child, she maybe in labour which are all things not possible for men biologically. So this woman may not be able to come. Thats why two women should be there to witness a financial transaction on record.

Well, Let me start by saying that Muhammad and Allah loved to capture women as sex slaves, and forced them into poligamy against their will.
Muhammad had at least 15 women at one time, of which about 7 were Jewish slave women who Muhammad took aftrer he massacred their tribes, husbands, and sold of their children.

Here is a small summary I made from the Quran (or as Muslims believe, Allahs own message) itself if you dont believe me.
Your Wives are your enemy.
(64: 14-15) O you who have believed, indeed, among your wives and your children are enemies to you, so beware of them. But if you pardon and overlook and forgive - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Your wealth and your children are but a trial, and Allah has with Him a great reward.

Muslim Men can beat their women if they fear the slightest arrogance. (4: 34)
(4: 34) Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Exchange your wife. (4: 20)
(4: 20) But if you want to replace one wife with another and you have given one of them a great amount [in gifts], do not take [back] from it anything. Would you take it in injustice and manifest sin?

2 or 3 or 4 women and as many slaves as wives! (4: 3)
(4: 3) And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].

Third divorce – consummation with another man before returning to first husband. (2: 230)
(2: 230) So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), He cannot, after that, re-marry her until after she has married another husband and He has divorced her. In that case there is no blame on either of them if they re-unite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah. Such are the limits ordained by Allah, which He makes plain to those who understand.

Muslims may “marry” married female captives. (4: 24)
(4: 24) And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess.

Pimp your slave girl
(Q 24: 33) But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess (female slaves) – then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity …And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Allah gave slave girls to Muhammad / and any believing women?
(33:50)Prophet, We have made lawful for you your wives …, slave girls whom God has given to you as gifts, the daughters of your uncles and aunts, both paternal and maternal, who have migrated with you. The believing woman, who has offered herself to the Prophet and whom the Prophet may want to marry, will be specially for him, not for other believers. We knew what to make obligatory for them concerning their wives and slave girls so that you would face no hardship. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.

Prophets cannot take slaves if they did not massacre the inhabitants
(Q 8: 67 – 70) It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah ‘s enemies] in the land. … If not for a decree from Allah that preceded, …

 

[Shakeel]

Your Wives are your enemy.
(64: 14-15) O you who have believed, indeed, among your wives and your children are enemies to you, so beware of them. But if you pardon and overlook and forgive -

I'm sure you see your error without me explaining it to you.

Exchange your wife. (4: 20)
(4: 20) But if you want to replace one wife with another and you have given one of them a great amount [in gifts], do not take [back] from it anything. Would you take it in injustice and manifest sin?

Are you against divorce? A fair one at that?

2 or 3 or 4 women and as many slaves as wives! (4: 3)
(4: 3) And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].

It's 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 women. I don't see where you get the "as many slaves as wives" part.

Third divorce – consummation with another man before returning to first husband. (2: 230)

What's the problem? The divorce again?

Pimp your slave girl
(Q 24: 33) But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess (female slaves) – then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity …And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

It says the opposite. I'm confident you can see that.

 

[firedragon]

Okay, so if that's not why you needs two women witnesses, then why? I find myself unconvinced by your attempted explanation. After all, it says that two women are needed to provide witness. It doesn't say, "You only need a witness statement from one woman, but you better be prepared and have two women witnesses ready to go just in case one woman can't make it."

It also assumes that there's nothing that could happen to make a male witness unavailable.

So yeah, there still seems to be a huge double standard there, regardless of your claims to the contrary.

well. If you want to really get into regression like "something could happen to the man", well then something could happen to 10 men, anything could happen to 2, this regression is infinite. If someone wishes to argue you can argue like that. About anything and everything.

But its only rational to think a woman has more things under her belt. More responsibilities and the ones I stipulated are biological.

 

[firedragon]

Well, Let me start by saying that Muhammad and Allah loved to capture women as sex slaves, and forced them into poligamy against their will.
Muhammad had at least 15 women at one time, of which about 7 were Jewish slave women who Muhammad took aftrer he massacred their tribes, husbands, and sold of their children.

Here is a small summary I made from the Quran (or as Muslims believe, Allahs own message) itself if you dont believe me.
Your Wives are your enemy.
(64: 14-15) O you who have believed, indeed, among your wives and your children are enemies to you, so beware of them. But if you pardon and overlook and forgive - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Your wealth and your children are but a trial, and Allah has with Him a great reward.

Muslim Men can beat their women if they fear the slightest arrogance. (4: 34)
(4: 34) Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

Exchange your wife. (4: 20)
(4: 20) But if you want to replace one wife with another and you have given one of them a great amount [in gifts], do not take [back] from it anything. Would you take it in injustice and manifest sin?

2 or 3 or 4 women and as many slaves as wives! (4: 3)
(4: 3) And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].

Third divorce – consummation with another man before returning to first husband. (2: 230)
(2: 230) So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), He cannot, after that, re-marry her until after she has married another husband and He has divorced her. In that case there is no blame on either of them if they re-unite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah. Such are the limits ordained by Allah, which He makes plain to those who understand.

Muslims may “marry” married female captives. (4: 24)
(4: 24) And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess.

Pimp your slave girl
(Q 24: 33) But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess (female slaves) – then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity …And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Allah gave slave girls to Muhammad / and any believing women?
(33:50)Prophet, We have made lawful for you your wives …, slave girls whom God has given to you as gifts, the daughters of your uncles and aunts, both paternal and maternal, who have migrated with you. The believing woman, who has offered herself to the Prophet and whom the Prophet may want to marry, will be specially for him, not for other believers. We knew what to make obligatory for them concerning their wives and slave girls so that you would face no hardship. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.

Prophets cannot take slaves if they did not massacre the inhabitants
(Q 8: 67 – 70) It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah ‘s enemies] in the land. … If not for a decree from Allah that preceded, …

Well, as already said, "But of course if you search the internet for "misogyny in Quran" or something you would find verses that helps you with that picture. This is nature apologetics and evangelism. You will find websites that help you with demonising this theology."

So since your intention is that, this is what you get. Shallow surfing is quite common with people. If you wish to analyse, that's a whole different ball game. Depends again on your intent.

 

[firedragon]

That seems like a odd excuse. A man could be absent following an injury or disease,

Women can too. These are common to every human being. If you really wish to make that kind of argument.

 

[firedragon]

So, what if an infertile woman, or a gay woman, shows up to witness a financial transaction? Is her testimony alone good enough?

See, regulations and laws are not made thinking about every possible infinite case that could possibly exist.

In some countries, a driving license is only given after the age of 18. Someone could argue "what if s/he is 18 but is still not mature enough?", and another can argue "why not 17 and 364 days?". If someone intends to argue they could argue endlessly with enough and more hypothetical situations.

These are general regulations.

Anyway just to give you an insight into a very similar thinking of one of the Islamic scholars in the past called Ibn Kusai who said that in the case that a woman is barren, and has no menses anymore, and she is young enough to be a witness and able, she can give witness to a financial transaction all alone. Well, that's one point of view. He is taking a hypothetical view thinking just like you.

But then again, another atheist has argued in this very forum that maybe this woman, though she is barren and is having menopause, she might get some technological advancement to help her get pregnant and she won't be able to come and provide witness in a situation of a dispute.

What an argument!! People can argue endlessly about everything.

Once I wrote against a guy who believed that women should get married young and his argument was "why 18"? What if she wants to get married at 17 and 364 days? One day prior to that threshold? This is the level people can get to when they really intend to argue.

Laws and regulations are made generally. You can never have laws that suit every hypothetical availed to yourself.

 

[Shakeel]

well. If you want to really get into regression like "something could happen to the man", well then something could happen to 10 men, anything could happen to 2, this regression is infinite. If someone wishes to argue you can argue like that. About anything and everything.

But its only rational to think a woman has more things under her belt. More responsibilities and the ones I stipulated are biological.

And it is not unlikely both women become pregnant. What is it about pregnancy and breast feeding that you think makes women mental invalids?

 

[Shakeel]

Women can too. These are common to every human being. If you really wish to make that kind of argument.

It's your argument. They're using your argument against you and you're pointing it out as basically useless. Go figure.

 

[firedragon]

I'm a Deist. That just means that (I think that) everything is a part of God, but all so vast and massive that the only Boss around here is Mother Nature.

Pantheism?

 

[firedragon]

And it is not unlikely both women become pregnant. What is it about pregnancy and breast feeding that you think makes women mental invalids?

Why did you interpret it as "mental invalids"? Where is that stated? Please explain.

 

[Shakeel]

See, regulations and laws are not made thinking about every possible infinite case that could possibly exist.

Or even some everyday occurrences that are bound to happen more often than not?

 

[firedragon]

It's your argument. They're using your argument against you and you're pointing it out as basically useless. Go figure.

So tell me. Do you also think that women are mentally inferior to men?

 

[Shakeel]

Why did you interpret it as "mental invalids"? Where is that stated? Please explain.

You say they wouldn't be able to bear wittness due to being pregnant or breast feeding. Women can actually do almost anything during that time. There is no reason they can't be witnesses.

 

[Shakeel]

So tell me. Do you also think that women are mentally inferior to men?

No.

 

[firedragon]

No.

Then whats your position on this?

 

[firedragon]

You say they wouldn't be able to bear wittness due to being pregnant or breast feeding. Women can actually do almost anything during that time. There is no reason they can't be witnesses.

Exactly. That is why in some Islamic Fikh there is a thing called ta'weel ul masaari. Which concept is that general rules are general rules but through technological development these regulations have a change in nature of it.