Debate a Muslim

[Shakeel]

Then whats your position on this?

I see you want to be the one asking the questions again, but can't address the things I actually say. That's nothing new.

My position is that of the Qur'an. If the Qur'an says two women then it is two women. I don't waste time making excuses for it. I'm not sorry. I don't believe women have a desire to bear wittness in such things anyway so the complaint is silly to begin with.

 

[Shakeel]

Exactly. That is why in some Islamic Fikh there is a thing called ta'weel ul masaari. Which concept is that general rules are general rules but through technological development these regulations have a change in nature of it.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

So you agree women can bear wittness even if pregnant or breast feeding?

 

[firedragon]

I see you want to be the one asking the questions again, but can't address the things I actually say. That's nothing new.

Who are you?

My position is that of the Qur'an. If the Qur'an says two women then it is two women. I don't waste time making excuses for it. I'm not sorry. I don't believe women have a desire to bear wittness in such things anyway so the complaint is silly to begin with.

Of course. The Quran says two women and that's it. But since you have a lot of objections, the answers are given through interpretation. So whats your issue now? Please explain.

 

[firedragon]

That has nothing to do with what I said.

So you agree women can bear wittness even if pregnant or breast feeding?

Depends on a lot of things. Sometimes they are able to. If you really wish to press it, they can even give witness from the hospital when they are giving birth through the internet. Maybe in the future they will invent technology where even a vegetable can give some testimony over some kind of technology.

You never know. So what now?

 

[Meow Mix]

What an argument!! People can argue endlessly about everything.

@firedragon I could argue with you until the heat death of the universe, it's what I do.

(I'm just kidding. It'd at least be slightly less than that)

In any case, in situations where laws discriminate, it feels like such cases should at least be clear; because otherwise (as we see), people interpret them in bad ways and use these things as divine writ to interpret them in bad ways.

In any case I'm just glad laws in my country aren't based on ancient religion (though they are based on old white men that thought women shouldn't vote and that they could own other people, which is problematic to say the least, but at least this document is able to be changed and updated, etc.)

 

[Meow Mix]

You say they wouldn't be able to bear wittness due to being pregnant or breast feeding. Women can actually do almost anything during that time. There is no reason they can't be witnesses.

What is your interpretation of why it takes two women to one man for financial witnessing?

 

[firedragon]

@firedragon I could argue with you until the heat death of the universe, it's what I do.

(I'm just kidding. It'd at least be slightly less than that)

In any case, in situations where laws discriminate, it feels like such cases should at least be clear; because otherwise (as we see), people interpret them in bad ways and use these things as divine writ to interpret them in bad ways.

In any case I'm just glad laws in my country aren't based on ancient religion (though they are based on old white men that thought women shouldn't vote and that they could own other people, which is problematic to say the least, but at least this document is able to be changed and updated, etc.)

what is the law in your country about testimony for a financial transaction?

 

[Meow Mix]

what is the law in your country about testimony for a financial transaction?

I have no idea about the specifics, but I'm certain it isn't discriminatory based on sex. (USA)

 

[firedragon]

I have no idea about the specifics, but I'm certain it isn't discriminatory based on sex. (USA)

Lol. Alright. How about maternity leave? Is there any?

 

[Meow Mix]

Lol. Alright. How about maternity leave? Is there any?

There is; but I'm also of the opinion there should be paternity leave as well.

 

[Shakeel]

Who

the person you're discussing with. Do you know how discussions work? There a guides to that in Google. They can teach you to be good at discussing and even debating. By good I mean tolerable and useful.

But since you have a lot of o

I have no objections. I don't think interpretation is necessary here. It says what it means. It isn't written in code.

So whats your issue now? Please explain.

Okay. I'll repeat it again. Maybe write it down, okay? You say women can't bear wittness while pregnant or breast feeding. What do you think makes them incapable of bearing wittness while pregnant or breast feeding?

Depends on a lot of things. Sometimes they are able to.

No, no, no. They are as a rule able to.

How many women have you met that couldn't have have done that and why couldn't they have?

If you really wish to press it, they can even give witness from the hospital when they are giving birth through the internet.

There is no such hurry to giving witness.

What is your interpretation of why it takes two women to one man for financial witnessing?

I don't invent my own interpretations.

The verse 2:282 says ".. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her.. ."

 

[firedragon]

There is; but I'm also of the opinion there should be paternity leave as well.

I am asking for specifics, which I think is only fair.

 

[Rival]

There is; but I'm also of the opinion there should be paternity leave as well.

We have it in the UK.

 

[Meow Mix]

I don't invent my own interpretations.

The verse 2:282 says ".. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her.. ."

Earlier, you stated "no" to the question on whether women were intellectually inferior.

How do you reconcile these two things; this verse with its clear implications that women are intellectually inferior, and your "no" answer?

 

[firedragon]

the person you're discussing with. Do you know how discussions work? There a guides to that in Google. They can teach you to be good at discussing and even debating. By good I mean tolerable and useful.

See. You are making a lot of ad hominem so I dont know who you are to make all of these kind of statements. Thats why I asked. Do you know me personally?

No, no, no. They are as a rule able to.

How many women have you met that couldn't have have done that and why couldn't they have?

Thats a personal question so judging by the way you are using ad hominem as argument, there is no way I am gonna share anything personal with you.

There is no such hurry to giving witness.

How do you know that in case there is a court date? No hurry?

 

[firedragon]

We have it in the UK.

How many months maternity leave, and how many months paternity leave? I mean paid leave.

 

[Shakeel]

Earlier, you stated "no" to the question on whether women were intellectually inferior.

How do you reconcile these two things; this verse with its clear implications that women are intellectually inferior, and your "no" answer?

Do you think if I have a poorer memory than you that I'm intellectually inferior to you? Or if someone is better at mathematics than you that they are intellectually superior it you?

I believe men and women are different. I believe they have their strengths and weaknesses. Those do not make either of them generally superior or inferior.

 

[Rival]

How many months maternity leave, and how many months paternity leave? I mean paid leave.

2 weeks. That's government mandated and paid. I don't know if certain private companies allow more. Maternity leave is much longer and also paid. Not sure how long it is.

I wasn't responding to you though, I was just telling MM it's a thing here.

 

[Shakeel]

How do you know that in case there is a court date? No hurry?

No hurry. The court is run by humans. They make all kinds of solutions.

 

[firedragon]

2 weeks. That's government mandated and paid. I don't know if certain private companies allow more. Maternity leave is much longer and also paid. Not sure how long it is.

I wasn't responding to you though, I was just telling MM it's a thing here.

I understand sis.