Debate a Muslim

[Meow Mix]

What? By God. Pretty ladies should not be working night shift. It gives too much heartache to your friends worrying about them. How inconsiderate of you??? Be it women or men, all are affected by it. Everyone will be worrying about you. Tsk tsk.

Night work is great for paying for grad school. Plus it’s work-from-home, so I don’t have to wear real pants. If it weren’t for roommates I wouldn’t even wear PJ’s or shorts haha ^.^

You don’t want to know how I paid for early undergrad. We’ll say it involved wearing less than shorts.

Yeah. You are right. Being taught to open doors for ladies you get into a habit of opening doors for everyone. And bald old men sometimes do look at you like you're some kind of freak. Yet, not like the younger men. They dont even know if you opened a door or not.

I wonder how much of that is regional. People around here open doors for everybody, all the time. Though I get what you mean about people saying thanks. This is one if those awkward moments for me sometimes as I’m incapable of saying thanks, so I get dirty looks sometimes.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I'm sure you see your error without me explaining it to you.

Well, my wife and children are not my ennemies.
Only the wives and children of Muhammad were his ennemies. He captured some and got them as sex slaves, the others he manipulated, married at 9, was given as a gift. One was even his daughter in law, and he saw her naked, and actually "received a revelation from Allah", to tell his adopted son to divorce her.
Even the 9 year old Aisha said she found that Allah was quick to give a revelation to help Muhammad on things he , muhammad, wanted.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I'm sure you see your error without me explaining it to you.

Are you against divorce? A fair one at that?

It's 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 women. I don't see where you get the "as many slaves as wives" part.

What's the problem? The divorce again?

It says the opposite. I'm confident you can see that.

Dont you see the problem of simple moral?
Allah told Muslims that they have the right to exchange there wifes!
It is sick man!

 

[Starlight]

Well, my wife and children are not my ennemies.
Only the wives and children of Muhammad were his ennemies. He captured some and got them as sex slaves, the others he manipulated, married at 9, was given as a gift. One was even his daughter in law, and he saw her naked, and actually "received a revelation from Allah", to tell his adopted son to divorce her.
Even the 9 year old Aisha said she found that Allah was quick to give a revelation to help Muhammad on things he , muhammad, wanted.

Aisha was not 9 years old when prophet Muhammad constumated the marriage. That is false and fabricated hadiths.
Many muslim scholars today has found much and good evidence that Aisha was much older when prophet Muhammad constumated the marriage with her.
Some people fabricated false hadiths because they was enemies of islam. They wanted to attack prophet Muhammad and because of this they fabricated false hadiths about him.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I'm sure you see your error without me explaining it to you.

Are you against divorce? A fair one at that?

It's 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 women. I don't see where you get the "as many slaves as wives" part.

What's the problem? The divorce again?

It says the opposite. I'm confident you can see that.

Well, why did Muhammad have so much women.
See the following summary I made on Muhammads' wifes and sex slaves.
Unfortunately I have to make a seperate post for this document

 

[firedragon]

Night work is great for paying for grad school. Plus it’s work-from-home, so I don’t have to wear real pants. If it weren’t for roommates I wouldn’t even wear PJ’s or shorts haha ^.^

You don’t want to know how I paid for early undergrad. We’ll say it involved wearing less than shorts.

Now now. I was trying to make pun of female inferiority and you are supposed to get angry with me. You cannot divert the attention. Its unfair.

I wonder how much of that is regional. People around here open doors for everybody, all the time. Though I get what you mean about people saying thanks. This is one if those awkward moments for me sometimes as I’m incapable of saying thanks, so I get dirty looks sometimes.

I was kidding. Its true though that the habit of opening doors become a non-sexist thing after a while. But no one gets angry for it. They are all cool.

 

[blü 2]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. I don't know how this works, but here we go.

- You can post your objections (or questions) against Islam here – it's scripture, theology, philosophy, law, politics, spirituality, or history –, bring your best supportive arguments & a white flag (or a prayer mat) for future use.

Good luck!

Thanks for the offer.

I have some questions, and whether I have a problem will, I dare say, depend on the answers.

First, when a Muslim gentleman arrives in paradise and is presented with dozens of virgins for his pleasure ─

Where do the virgins come from? Are they volunteers, or press-ganged, or created for purpose?

Second, are there circumstances where ladies arrive in paradise and are presented with dozens of male virgins for their pleasure?

If not, why not?
`

 

[SA Huguenot]

Polygamy in Islam?
Muhammad married 16 women IN 12 Years, Married to 13 at once.

Mohammad was originally a monogamist for 25 years.
He married his wealthy, twice-divorced distant cousin, Khadijah in 595 AD.

Khadijah was ± 28 and Muhammad was ± 26.

1. Ibn Ishaq, cited in Al-Hakim, Mustadrak vol. 3 p. 182. Ibn Kathir, Al-Bidaya wa’l-Nihaya vol. 5 p. 293
He remained married to her for 24 years until her death in 619 AD.
2. Guillaume/Ishaq 82-83, 106-107, 111, 113-114, 160-161, 191, 313-314. Ibn Hisham note 918.
3. Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 127-128; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 3-4 Bewley/Saad 8:9-12, 39, 151-152.

After the death of Khadijah, in 619 AD, Muhammad received a revelation and asked Abu Baker for Aisha’s hand in Marriage.
Aisha was 6 Years old. Muhammad did not consume the marriage until her 9th year.
4. Sahih Bukhari 2:26:740. Guillaume/Ishaq 148, 309, 530. Ibn Hisham note 918. Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 128-130; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 169-170. Bewley/Saad 8:39-42, 152.

1. In the meantime Muhammad married Sawa
Year: 619 AD
Name: Sawda bint Zam'a.
Muhammad: 49
Wife: 40.
She was obese and not very attractive. He would later have nothing to do with her.
5. Sahih Bukhari 2:26:740. Guillaume/Ishaq 148, 309, 530.

2. Aisha
Year: 622 AD
Name: Sayyidah Aisha
Muhammad: 53
Wife: 9
She was Muhammad’s favorited wife and he spent most of his time at her. Once he married her, he disliked his first wife Sawa (after Kadijah), and Sawa gave up her night with Muhammad in favour of Aisha so she would not be divorced. All this was confirmed through divine revelations.

It is said the reason why Muhammad wanted to divorce Sawa was that Sawa was old, however, she was 9 years younger than Muhammad!

6. Al Bukhari 3:47:755 / 5:59:462 / 7:62:164 / 6:60:281 / 5:57:119 Guillaume/Ishaq 116, 223, 279-280, 311, 457, 464-465, 468, 493-499, 522, 535-536, 544, 649-650, 667, 678-688 Ibn Hisham note 918 Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 128-131; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 171-174. Bewley/Saad 8:43-56, 151

3. …Hafsa…
Year: 625 AD
Name: Hafsa bint Umar.
Muhammad: 54
Wife: 19
Daughter of his wealthy friend Umar
She eventually was the custodian of the autograph-text of the Qur'an.

7. Guillaume/Ishaq 218, 301, 679 Ibn Hisham note 918 Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 131-132; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 174-175 Bewley/Saad 8:56-60, 152

4. …Zaynab bint Khuzayma…
Year: 625 AD
Name: Zaynab bint Khuzayma.
Muhammad: 54
Wife: 28
She was a middle-class widow known as "Mother of the Poor" because of her commitment to charity work.
She died later that same year she married.
8. Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 138; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 63-64. Bewley/Saad 8:82, 152.

5. Hind (Umm Salama)
Year: 626 AD
Name: Hind (Umm Salama) bint Abi Umayya.
Muhammad: 56
Wife: 28
An attractive widow with four young children, Hind had been rejected by her aristocratic family in Mecca because they were so hostile to Islam.

9. Guillaume/Ishaq 146, 147, 150-153, 167-169, 213-214, 462, 529, 536, 546, 589, 680. Ibn Hisham note 918 Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 132; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 175-177. Bewley/Saad 8:61-67, 152.

6. Zaynab bint Jahsh
Year: 627 AD
Name: Zaynab bint Jahsh.
Muhammad: 56
Wife: 37
Zaynab was the daughter in law of Muhammad by his adopted son Zayd ibn Harithah, and his biological cousin.
Zayd was pressured into a divorce. Muhammad announced new revelations that an adopted son did not count as a real son, so Zaynab was not his daughter-in-law, as a prophet, he was allowed more than the standard four wives.

10. Guillaume/Ishaq 215, 495. Ibn Hisham note 918. Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 134; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 180-182. Bewley/Saad 8:72-81, 152.
7. ***Rayhana***
Year: 627 AD
Name: Rayhana bint Zayd ibn Amr
Muhammad: 57
Wife: 20
Her first husband was one of the 600-900 Qurayza men whom Muhammad beheaded in April 627.
Muhammad enslaved all the women and selected Rayhana for himself because she was the most beautiful.
When she refused to marry him, he kept her as a “concubine instead”. She died shortly before Muhammad in 632.
11. Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 137, 141; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 164-165. Bewley/Saad 8:92-94, 153

8. ***Al Jariya***
Year: 627 AD
Name: Al Jariya
Muhammad: 57
Wife: Teens
She was a domestic slave belonging to Zaynab bint Jahsh, who made Muhammad a present of her.
She seems to have been an " who did not have a regular turn on his roster.
She was a slave captured during the Genocide of the Qurayza tribe.
12. Ibn al-Qayyim, Za’d al-Ma’ad 1:114.

9. ***Juwayriyah***
Year: 628 AD
Name: Juwayriyah bint Al-Harith
Muhammad: 59
Wife: 17
The daughter of an Arab chief, she was taken prisoner when Muhammad attacked her tribe without reason and warning.
13. Guillaume/Ishaq 490-493. Ibn Hisham note 918. Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 133; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 182-184. Bewley/Saad 8:83-85, 152

10. …Ramlah…
Year: 628 AD
Name: Ramlah bint Abi Sufyan.
Muhammad: 59
Wife: 34
She was a daughter of Abu Sufyan, the Meccan chief who led the resistance against Muhammad, but she had been a teenaged convert to Islam.
14. Guillaume/Ishaq 146, 527-528, 529, 543. Ibn Hisham note 918. Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 133-134; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 177-180. Bewley/Saad 8:68-71, 153.



11. ***Safiyah***
Year: 628 AD
Name: Safiyah bint Huyayy.
Muhammad: 59
Wife: 16
She was the beautiful daughter of a Jewish chief, Huyayy ibn Akhtab.
Muhammad married her on the day he defeated the last Jewish tribe in Arabia, only hours after he had supervised the slaying of Kinana her second husband.
Muhammad roasted Kinana alive to find out the location of the tribe’s treasury, then beheaded him.
His earlier victims had included her father, brother, first husband, three uncles and several cousins.
15. Guillaume/Ishaq 241-242, 511, 514-515, 516-517, 520. Ibn Hisham note 918. Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 134-135; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 184-185. Bewley/Saad 8:85-92, 153.

12. …Maymunah…
Year: 629 AD
Name: Maymunah bint Al-Harith
Muhammad: 59
Wife: 35
She was a middle-class widow from Mecca who proposed marriage to Muhammad.
16. Guillaume/Ishaq 531, 679-680. Ibn Hisham note 918. Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 135; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 185-186. Bewley/Saad 8:94-99, 153.

13. ***Mariyah***
Year: 629 AD
Name: Mariyah bint Shamoon al-Quptiya.
Muhammad: 60
Wife: Teens
She was one of several slaves whom the Governor of Egypt sent as a present to Muhammad.
He kept her as a concubine despite the objections of his official wives, who feared her beauty.
Mariyah bore Muhammad a son, Ibrahim.
17. Guillaume/Ishaq 653. Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 137, 141; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 193-195. Bewley/Saad 8:148-151.

14. ***Mulayka***
Year: 630 AD
Name: Mulayka bint Kaab.
Muhammad: 60
Wife: 13
Her family resisted the Muslim invasion of Mecca. Needing to appease the conqueror, they gave him the beautiful Mulayka as a bride.
When she realised that Muhammad's army had killed her father, she demanded a divorce, which he granted her.
She died a few weeks later.
18. Bewley/Saad 8:106, 154. Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, p. 165

15. …Fatima…
Year: 630 AD
Name: Fatima al-Aliya bint Zabyan al-Dahhak
Muhammad: 60
Wife: Teenager
She was the daughter of a minor chief who had converted to Islam.
Muhammad divorced her after only a few weeks "because she peeked at men in the mosque courtyard."
Fatima had to work for the rest of her life as a dung-collector, and she outlived all Muhammad's widows.
19. Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 138; Al-Tabari, Vol. 39, pp. 186-188. Despite the confusion over the name, she is probably also the woman referred to in Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, pp. 136-137 and the “Fatima bint Shurayh” of Al-Tabari, Vol. 9, p. 139
20. Bewley/Saad 8:100-101, 153.

16. ***Tukana***
Year: 630 AD
Name: Tukana al-Quraziya
Muhammad: 62
Wife: Teenager
She was a member of the defeated Qurayza tribe whom Muhammad selected as one of his personal slaves.
She appears to have been another "unofficial" concubine without a regular turn on the roster.
After Muhammad's death, she married Abbas.
21. Majlisi, Hayat al-Qulub 2:52. Ibn al-Qayyim, Zaad al-Ma’ad 1:114

Sick sex trafficking in Islam and Quran practiced by Muhammad!
Muhammad and Muslims are allowed to have female sex slaves!
Q 33: 50 O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses (female slaves) from what Allah has returned to you and …

Muslims can rape a married Female sex slave.
Q 4: 25And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess (female married slaves). [This is] the decree of Allah upon you...Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

Muslims can pimp out female sex slaves.
Q 24: 33 … And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity …And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Muhammad was allowed to inflict massacre upon people to gain slaves, not before!
Q 8: 67 – 70 It is not for a prophet to have captives [of war] until he inflicts a massacre [upon Allah ‘s enemies] in the land. … If not for a decree from Allah that preceded, …

 

[Shakeel]

There is scientific evidence that in affairs like memory, logic, mathematical reasoning, and so forth that there is no effective difference between the sexes.

I don't hold such studies reliable. They mostly seem to be intented to unnecessarily console one of the two sexes. Also one would have to analyse them deeply to get any kind of a definitive answer, if there was one. As they state exactly what they measured and when, you see most of the tests are restricted to certain things, situations and circumstances.

Nevertheless, a quick Google search gives you a ton of studies that claim one of the sexes to be better at this or that.

I believe Allah knows best.

 

[Shakeel]

He married his wealthy, twice-divorced

Twice widowed.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I'm sure you see your error without me explaining it to you.

Are you against divorce? A fair one at that?

It's 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 women. I don't see where you get the "as many slaves as wives" part.

What's the problem? The divorce again?

It says the opposite. I'm confident you can see that.

Ha, you just dont get it do you?
Allah says that if a Muslim man divorced his wife the third time, which is the final time, then she first has to mary and sleep with another man, and get divorced before you can reconcile the marrage.
Come on, you know what I am talking about!
You even have Imaams that will help you to adhere to this law of Allah.
Say you divorced your wife the third time, but you realise that it was a mistake, and you know you love each other and need to get married again, there is no whay to do so, except to go to one of these imaams, let her marry him quick, have sex with him, and he then divorces her, so you can marry her again!
The women who sleep with a stranger to save their marriage
They call it the practice of Halala!

Tell us more!

 

[SA Huguenot]

I'm sure you see your error without me explaining it to you.

Are you against divorce? A fair one at that?

It's 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 women. I don't see where you get the "as many slaves as wives" part.

What's the problem? The divorce again?

It says the opposite. I'm confident you can see that.

Oh I forgot about the nice way Muslim apologists interperate this verse.
Friend, it says that you should not force your slave girl into prostetution for monitary gain.
If you do so, Allah will forgive you!
it will not make sense if you want to imply, as Muslim scholars does, to say if this slave girl who is married to you practices prostetution because she wants to stay chaste, Allah will forgive her.
Sory friend, It says that Allah will allow Muslim men to pimp their slave girls to get money.
No whay out of this one.

 

[Shakeel]

Well. Thats a whole other discussion. Why women are not running things is a completely different topic. Its a good topic, so please do open a new thread on that.

It isn't because they might become pregnant and breast feed?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Aisha was not 9 years old when prophet Muhammad constumated the marriage. That is false and fabricated hadiths.
Many muslim scholars today has found much and good evidence that Aisha was much older when prophet Muhammad constumated the marriage with her.
Some people fabricated false hadiths because they was enemies of islam. They wanted to attack prophet Muhammad and because of this they fabricated false hadiths about him.

I find it ridiculous that Muslims will say Sahee Bukhari is false and fabricated concerning the age of Aisha.
Please note that the book I worked from was authenticated and published as the concice collection of the CORRECT HADITH!
https://www.amazon.com/Sahih-Al-Bukhari-Muhammad-1-Jan-1995-Hardcover/dp/B011T6WCTA

The other Ahadith was at least 50 years to 300 years after Bukhari.
Then again, when Muslims speak to each other on Muhammads' marrage with Aisha, it is a glorious act Muhammad consumed the marrage with her on age 9, because it came from Allah.

 

[Starlight]

I find it ridiculous that Muslims will say Sahee Bukhari is false and fabricated concerning the age of Aisha.
Please note that the book I worked from was authenticated and published as the concice collection of the CORRECT HADITH!
https://www.amazon.com/Sahih-Al-Bukhari-Muhammad-1-Jan-1995-Hardcover/dp/B011T6WCTA

The other Ahadith was at least 50 years to 300 years after Bukhari.
Then again, when Muslims speak to each other on this matter, it is a glorious act Muhammad did, because it came from Allah.

Sahih hadiths by Bukhari was written 200 years after Prophet Muhammad's death. And after Prophet Muhammad's death many enemies of islam fabricated false hadiths, so no, all sahih hadiths is not correct.

 

[Shakeel]

Ha, you just dont get it do you?
Allah says that if a Muslim man divorced his wife the third time, which is the final time, then she first has to mary and sleep with another man, and get divorced before you can reconcile the marrage.
Come on, you know what I am talking about

I understand, but I'm asking what is the problem? Is it unreasonable? Maybe it's good two people who have decided on divorce three times so far as to pronounce it that they will go their own ways?

Say you divorced your wife the third time, but you realise that it was a mistake, and you know you love each other and need to get married again, there is no whay to do so, except to go to one of these imaams, let her marry him quick, have sex with him, and he then divorces her, so you can marry her again!

This is haram, actually. But if you marry another man, as you would be expected to, and it doesn't work out either, you can go back to your previous husband. It isn't rare for people to realize the good in their marriage after trying it with someone else.

Friend, it says that you should not force your slave girl into prostetution for monit

No, it says, Allah will forgive the women.

it will not make sense if you want to imply, as Muslim scholars does, to say if this slave girl who is married to you practices prostetution because she wants to stay chaste, Allah will forgive her.

Who says that?
It means if someone forces their slave to prostitution, she will be forgiven.

 

[Ghazaly]

So...only public preaching of Islam is allowed, and not of atheism or hinduism? [...]. Correct?

- If you're going to spent that much effort typing all this you should've probably read what I said. Try one more time.

'Natural selection is defined as a process by which species of animals and plants that are best adapted to their environment survive and reproduce, while those that are less well adapted die out.'
Source: What is natural selection?

- Your point? Go on. Make your argument.

Well I'm not American, i'm Australian and I don't support the death penalty at all, ...."

- Sure! And..!? I don't see the objection. You're sharing your personal feelings. How are you feelings relevant to the state & its laws & policies? Even if, how are they justifiable? Why then are Sharia laws comparatively not justifiable? You haven't provided an argument nor an objection. If you wish to object, you must show:

1. that your position is relevant
2. what this entails
3. why is this good
4. what my position entails
5. why is it bad

And I'm sure that there is plenty of violent crime in Muslim countries as well

- There are people in Muslim countries as well, so yeah. Point was, violent crimes rate in the US are significantly higher than in Muslim countries (or most countries for that matter), oftentimes an order of magnitude higher.

Are you suggesting debate is banned in universities and education in Australia?

- Western secular system in general does not allow for any alternative worldview, in any systematic institution. In academia all competing worldviews are thwarted at the door. For instance, I can not go into a university & offer a Sharia course & teach it, for that violates the 'secular' doctrine of the institution. Debate is not about having the occasional event, it's about having competing worldview in intense constant debate & sharing of ideas.

In practice where apostates are killed the killing of apostates is often carried out by vigilantes at the instigation of the Mulsim divines.

- I bring you state actions & you bring me individual action!? Such incidents are extremely rare, & often end in execution of the murderers, such as in the case of Faraj Fodah who was assassinated & his assassin was sentenced to death. Killing Christian apostates is not uncommon in the West either. But why is any of this relevant to Sharia & apostasy laws!? You have American pastors calling for killing gays & Muslims, what does that have to do with US law!

There wrong assumption that deceptive factors need to be removed for truth to prevail shows that they have no confidence in the Quranic claim of 2:256 and 21:18 ....

- Concession much? One: this is most appropriate for Western intellectual institutions. The fact that they don't allow alternative worldview shows the zero confidence in the truth of their claims, in your own words. Two: removing deceptive factors does not entail removing opposite worldviews; On the complete contrary, it entails inviting competing worldviews on the highest level, that's what the Quran is referring to. It's easy to trick the masses who don't have enough knowledge to defend against your propaganda. If your ideas have any merit, go to the university (like Dar Hikma in Baghdad) & prove your worth against the other scholars instead of preying on the weak minded.

Apostates who were loyal to the state and law abiding have been accused of being disloyalty to the state as a pretext to kill and/or persecute them

- Again, I'm speaking from principle & you're speaking from hypothetical example. Islamic political theorists' (like al-Muwardi) position on apostasy is known, it relates to threats against the integrity of the state. In fact, there are no recoded incidents of individual apostates being executed for just being apostates in pre-colonial Islamic history. Abu Bakr Razi, the famous doctor, apostatized & wrote books criticizing the faith before he returned to it. Abu Alaa Maari, the famous poet, did the same. He wasn't even fired from his position... They all died peacefully in bed.

, and as I drew your attention to above I'm morally opposed to the death sentence (except where for example a killer can't be safely isolated).In my opinion

- Sure sure! How is this any relevant to the state. What you're saying is unattainable. No death penalty is war is suicide.

This doesn't really answer whether the woman has equal say in the relationship; though

- It strictly does. Obligatory duty is within stated benefits, anything else is not obligatory by Sharia. Obligation entails sin upon failure to uphold. There are 5 types rulings in Sharia:

• Wajib – obligatory = reward upon commission & sin upon omission.
• Mandub – recommended = reward upon commission.
• Mubah – permissible = no reward & no sin.
• Makruh – discouraged = reward upon omission.
• Mahdhur – prohibited = sin upon commission & reward upon omission.

- Beyond stated benefits, the duties conforming to the rules I mentioned would fall under Mandub (recommended), as in the wife is rewarded in doing them but does not sin if she does not do them.

(and also, does the husband have an obligation to fulfill the wife's sexual needs too?

- Yes, but not necessary immediately, for obvious reasons. Something between 40 days & 4 months being the legal limit according to different opinions on the matter.

... lawnmower . Does the man have final say, or is it sometimes the woman that has the final say, sometimes the man, sometimes a compromise, etc?

- This is a question of Muaashara – intimacy. The Prophet (pbuh) had enjoyed affection, compassion, forebearence, love, patience, kindness, compromise & sacrifice among couples. What I mentioned in the previous post are matters pertain to legal rights & legal recourse. Beyond that, what's good in life is also good in marriage.

Why with financial testimony (Ishhad) does it look like 2 women's testimony is worth one man's?

- Because it is, & ultimately because Allah (swt) says so in the Quran: "And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of them [i.e., the women] errs, then the other can remind her." (2:282). The Quran is the primary source of legislation in Sharia, followed by the Sunnah, Ijma (consensus), Qiyas (analogical reasoning), Aql (reason) & Istihsan (good customs).

- If you're inquiring about the rationale not the impetus, then it's in the verse itself. To have more corroboration in testimony, for fear of lapses in memory – & not for anything relating to gender itself. To understand what this entails, we have to take a step back into the general structure of a Muslim society under Sharia. Women are believed to be morally efficient (ma'nawyyat) yet materially deficient (maddyyat), while men are believed to be material efficient & morally deficient. Therefore, Sharia materially compliments women (giving them priority rights), while it morally burdens them (with extra moral duties such as child rearing). Conversely for men. Thus, a woman has, by Sharia, a permanent right to material & physical security mandated onto her father, husband, son, brother...(if not, then the state). [& many other material rights not granted to the man]. Therefore, women, contrary to men, are never required by Sharia to work or provide. Thus they, hence contrary to men, can not be expected to be familiar with financial transactions. It follows, Ishhad, as a criteria of minimum testimony required for financial transactions, can only follow the norm of expectations, otherwise rendered less than reliable.

- As to specific cases where a woman is known to be familiar with said transactions & has a record of fulfilling them, then according to the rationale of the verse itself, their testimony is valid, for absence of the inattentiveness factor in the female witness offsets the need of another. This could also be thought of as 'expert testimony'. In case there were no men & only women present in the transaction, it does not necessarily entail the testimony is invalid, rather it entails a further step of verification by the judge. If the judge sees what satisfy a reliable testimony then it holds.

What about men and women that don't have stereotypical dispositions for Shahada?

- Shahada is a conclusive testimony. & that's a powerful & dangerous thing. What it entails is once you have Shahada, there is no further need for supplementary evidence. It means the case is established, not even the judge can undo that. There is no equivalent notion in Western laws, that's why it's probably harder to perceive. Think about a murder, Shahada is a corroborated testimony by two reliable (trustworthy & judicious) unmotivated (by interest, or kinship, or bias... in the case) independent witnesses. After Shahada the court needs no further evidence to convicted the murderer, which is why the conditions on it are so stringent.

- The reason why women according to the majority opinion are not allowed to testify in penalties is not only because of the nature of the criminal acts (gory & unpleasant) or because of the significant outcome this testimony entails (execution or severing hand...) –which may induce empathy in the woman's heart, but also because verifying a female's reliability is unfeasible. For instance, men are obligated to pray in the mosque, if a man is found out to skip his mosque prayers, then his Shahada is rejected, for someone who does not fear God to uphold his religious obligations, can not be trusted to fear God while testifying. A woman, on the other hand, is not required to pray in the mosque, & there is no way we can verify her prayers at home.

Are you implying there that according to your reading of the Quran

- This is not my reading. I'm speaking about the positions of the Four Madhhabs on these matters. Anything else is personal feelings.

and associated material that a couple can decide who will have to provide care and who will have to be dutiful and that this isn't mandated based on their gender? For example, my wife could promise me care in exchange of my dutifulness towards her? Are mutual care and dutifulness a possible arrangement where we both promise care and dutifulness to one another or must it be one in exchange of the other?

- There are two opinions regarding the issue of when either of the parties (wife or husband) fails to fulfill their duties, One: the other party is also absolved of theirs –for a contract is based on exchanged benefits; Two: it is not absolved of theirs, for if one side is sinning the other shouldn't. Either way, the reverse of rights is not sanctioned in Sharia. The wife may provide for her husband from her own grace, for which she is doubly rewarded (for provision & for charity, as the Prophet (pbuh) said), but this does not entail the husband has to obey his wife's sexual wishes. Obligation in Sharia is about sin & reward, do means reward, don't means sin. However, a husband may strike such a deal with his wife, it's just not binding in Sharia.

 

[Shakeel]

Dont you see the problem of simple moral?
Allah told Muslims that they have the right to exchange there wifes!
It is sick man!

They're allowed to get divorced and to marry again. Like you.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Oh, and just for info.
I dont have to google these facts to somehow find anti Muslim sites that is somehow false propaganda.
I summarised the Hadith al Bukhari, the Quran, and Muhammads' history from at least 3 writers.
I am personal friends with Ex Muslims who learned the truth about Islam after they themself discovered the true life of Muhammad, and the false compilation of the Quran.
All one has to do is to read the Islamic websites, and Muslim books to find the opposit of truth.
Greetings.
NS, I have nothing against Muslims, they are just people that still did not learn anything else but Islam.

 

[Shakeel]

For instance, I can not go into a university & offer a Sharia course & teach it, for that violates the 'secular' doctrine of the institution. Debate is not about having the occasional event, it's about having competing worldview in intense constant debate & sharing of ideas.

Introduction to Islamic law LA3028