Debate a Muslim

[Ghazaly]

Yes, it is. Maybe it isn't good enough for you, I don't know, but it is a course on sharia in a university.

- You don't say. That's exactly the whole goddamn point. There is zero alternative worldview allowed. Case in point.

 

[firedragon]

Anyhow, it is a fact that the Quran existed long before Muhammad in Persia. Muhammad perhaps never existed and the religion was made up by Hakim in 691.

The oldest manuscripts of the Quran anyhow dates from 300 after Muhammad.

Lol.

 

[Ghazaly]

You should also understand that there are other Islamic scholars who speak very different. I am not blaming a non-muslim for asking these questions. But most of the questions are not from scholarly sources at all, its from anti islamic websites.

Which scholar are you referring to? And you said about a Sahih hadith. Is it also Sarih? Which hadith anyway? Sorry I can't see the exact verse in your link by the way.

Most of these cut and pastes are bogus apologetics. I dont mind analysing what scholars say. But take a look at the thread, and the cut and pastes of lists. Its not scholarship, its from apologetic websites. I like to get into specifics of scholarship with whatever anyone is quoting. Thus, it is much better if one verse is taken in context, and said with what methodology it is rendered in a particular way. I hope you understand.

See, I am not very appreciative of people making cases based on what they say is "mainstream". There could be many nuances. I appreciate your depth in this matter, but there are many things to consider. Tafseer is most importantly based on Quran bi Quran. So analysis is more important than appealing to authority, favourable or not.

Hope you understand.

- I assume your comments were about my post. You accusations are a sign of a complete inability to defend otherwise. I can emphatically say that your knowledge of the religion is virtually non-existent, it's cute. Though, I don't mind debating a Muslim too. Do share, what objections do you have against what I said? Clearly you don't subscribe to the Four Madhhabds, otherwise you'd've realized this is basic stuff.

 

[SA Huguenot]

What's up with the nasty formatting!!!

- First of all, why are mentioning a Hadith that supports what I just said in my post? Indeed, women are materially deficient & morally efficient. Nice twist of facts there. You're taking a hadith of the Prophet (pbuh) urging women to give charity & be grateful to their husbands, to mean something else instead –for obvious ulterior motives (hate). Same with the the other twist about Hell.. the majority of women going to Hell are those who don't give charity & aren't grateful to their husbands.

- Second of all, Aql does not mean intelligence, it means Reason, as in the rational faculty, which women obviously lack in favor of greater emotional propensity. The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Allah Most High said, 'I Am Allah, I Am the Most-Merciful (Rahman), I created the womb (rahim) & named it after my name [rahim from rahman]. So whoever keeps good relations with it, I keep good relation with him, and whoever severs it, I am finished with him'." The womb is the source of mercy in the world through which Allah's Mercy is expanded.

- Third of all, we understand traditions in light of overall message & all other traditions. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) honored women more than any other in history. Even upon his death bed he kept insisting on their rights: "the last of his advice of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) three things he kept repeating until his tongue stammered and his speech faded, he kept saying, [...] Allah Allah [fear God] for your women [...]". He (pbuh) honored those who honor women, saying: "The most perfect man in his faith among the believers is the one whose behavior is most excellent; and the best of you are those who are the best to their wives.". He prescribed the equity between men & women saying: “Verily, women are but the equivalent of men. Those honorable among men will honor them, and those dishonorable among men will dishonor them”. He enjoined Muslim to treat their women kindly even in the little things: “There is a reward for a man who offers his wife a drink”, &: “The act of putting a bite into your wife’s mouth is a charitable deed”. Add to that his (pbuh) wise advice to men in kindling dealing with women ”A believer must not hate his wife ; if he dislikes one of her qualities, he will be pleased with another”, & respecting their privacy : "[he] forbade that a man should come to his family like (an unexpected) night visitor doubting their fidelity and spying into their lapses.".

- Finally, I see that you're Christian. What does your Bible say about women:

• Little girls are to be killed or raped: "And now, slay every male among the infants, indeed, slay every woman knowing a man by the lying of a male, and all the infants among the women who have not known the lying of a male you have kept alive for yourselves." (Numbers 13:17-18)
• Girls who fornicate to be burnt alive: "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profanes her father: she shall be burnt with fire.". (Leviticus 21:9)
• Women are impure & those who touch them defile themselves: "Those are those (men) who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes." (Revelation 14:4)
• Women are the glory of men: "A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. [...] the head of the woman is man." (1 Corinthians 11:6-7)

- Go home before I rain you with so much Bible "God's wrath" you'll start saying the Shahada.

Haha!
The old Muslim scholar trick, what does the Bible say!
Well, open another thread to discuss it with me, and I will gladly answer.

But for you to think this is an answer to cover up Muhammd's bad treatment of women is really so far fetched.

Now, I dont know why you would insist that the words used in the Arabic somehow means something else, because the most highly educated Muslims in the UAE translated these hadith, and screwtinised by Muslim scholars all over the world, with certifications of the Islamic universities in the islamic world.
Now, how the heck did these highly trained Islamic scholars make such a bad translation error when it comes to Muhammad telling women they are defficient in their minds?

Do you realy want me to believe your excuse, or the clams by highly educated Islamic scholars?
Never my friend.
Even if you tell me that your prophet said that women are deficient in their reason or logic, I will say it is a blatant BS!

Women reasons 100 times better than any man.

But what about Muhammad killing hundreds of inocent men, and taking their women as sex slaves.
and remember, tell me about Muhammad and Allah who did those atrocities, and leave the Bible out of your answer.
As I said, I will gladly answer you on another thread on the Bible.

What you are attempting to do is to say...
Muhammad murdered inocent tribes of Jews, and raped their women, but dont worry, the same happened in Israel 2000 years before Muhammad.

Thats not an answer, but a strawman!

 

[firedragon]

Good question. He contradict himself

Absolutely.

 

[SA Huguenot]

I read your statements. There were a lot of opinions and ifs and buts. I have a simple question:-
I am Muslim in a Muslim majority country who no longer think Quran is the word of God but Gita is. So I change my religion, construct a temple of Krishna and invite people for a religious celebration of my God Krishna during Holi. Am I allowed to do this or not if that country follows the ideal Quran and the ideal Sharia. If not why not? Please be concise and clear.

I am creating a specific case to study what you believe is right or wrong from your view of Islam.

You will be executed!
If you dont tell anyone, you will be sent to hell by Allah!

 

[firedragon]

I assume your comments were about my post.

No

You accusations are a sign of a complete inability to defend otherwise.

Which one?

I can emphatically say that your knowledge of the religion is virtually non-existent, it's cute.

Great achievement.

Though, I don't mind debating a Muslim too. Do share, what objections do you have against what I said?

I didn't address you.

Clearly you don't subscribe to the Four Madhhabds, otherwise you'd've realized this is basic stuff.

Why?

 

[SA Huguenot]

Lol.

Well prove me wrong.
What is the date of the oldest complete quran manuscript ?

 

[firedragon]

Well prove me wrong.
What is the date of the oldest complete quran manuscript ?

Nah. Clear the contradiction /in post #142

 

[Link]

My question: how can you trust "Ilmel Rijaal" when Quran shows reputation is unreliable and it's not for the righteous to even show off their purity/righteousness nor for people to claim it on their behalf?

 

[Ghazaly]

Haha!
The old Muslim scholar trick, what does the Bible say!
Well, open another thread to discuss it with me, and I will gladly answer

- The old ostrich head in the sand trick. This does not save your case one bit.

But for you to think this is an answer to cover up Muhammd's bad treatment of women is really so far fetched.

- Bare assertions are signs of defeat. Let it go.

Now, I dont know why you would insist that the words used in the Arabic somehow means something else, because the most highly educated Muslims in the UAE translated these hadith, and screwtinised by Muslim scholars all over the world, with certifications of the Islamic universities in the islamic world.
Now, how the heck did these highly trained Islamic scholars make such a bad translation error when it comes to Muhammad telling women they are defficient in their minds?

- You're beating a dead horse, repeating the same tricks yet again. Or do you have amnesia? Aql is Reason, not intelligence (thakaa).

Do you realy want me to believe your excuse, or the clams by highly educated Islamic scholars?
Never my friend.
Even if you tell me that your prophet said that women are deficient in their reason or logic, I will say it is a blatant BS!

- You're entitled to be wrong. You have yet to address anything I said "highly educated scholars" is no rebuttal to anything. I accept your concession.

Women reasons 100 times better than any man.

- Find one for me, from Aristotle to Einstein.

But what about Muhammad killing hundreds of inocent men, and taking their women as sex slaves.

- No such thing. You're thinking of Biblical prophets.

and remember, tell me about Muhammad and Allah who did those atrocities, and leave the Bible out of your answer.
As I said, I will gladly answer you on another thread on the Bible.

- This tells me you are a bit aware of what's in the Bible you can't deal with...

What you are attempting to do is to say...
Muhammad murdered inocent tribes of Jews, and raped their women, but dont worry, the same happened in Israel 2000 years before Muhammad.

- No such thing. You're getting delirious, you gotta check that amnesia.

 

[Starlight]

Well prove me wrong.
What is the date of the oldest complete quran manuscript ?

The problem is that you first wrote:
SA Huguenot said: ↑
Anyhow, it is a fact that the Quran existed long before Muhammad in Persia. Muhammad perhaps never existed and the religion was made up by Hakim in 691.

But then you wrote:
SA Huguenot said: ↑
The oldest manuscripts of the Quran anyhow dates from 300 after Muhammad.

 

[Ghazaly]

No
Which one?
Great achievement.
I didn't address you.
Why?

- What Madhhab do you adhere to?

 

[firedragon]

But what about Muhammad killing hundreds of inocent men, and taking their women as sex slaves.
and remember, tell me about Muhammad and Allah who did those atrocities, and leave the Bible out of your answer.
As I said, I will gladly answer you on another thread on the Bible.

Try These

Quran and New Testament, are they the same in authorship, manuscript evidence, textual reliability?

Textual Criticism conundrum of the Qur’an

 

[firedragon]

- What Madhhab do you adhere to?

Not relevant.

 

[Ghazaly]

Not relevant.

- That's what I thought.

 

[firedragon]

- That's what I thought.

Great.

 

[Link]

I believe in Sunnah but believe it's to be taken as insights to Quran and help you perceive insights to Quran. Where Quran is implicit, Sunnah is explicit, where sometimes Sunnah is implicit Quran is explicit, but in no case should Ilmel Rijaal factor in by methodology of reputation of men.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The problem is that you first wrote:
SA Huguenot said: ↑
Anyhow, it is a fact that the Quran existed long before Muhammad in Persia. Muhammad perhaps never existed and the religion was made up by Hakim in 691.

But then you wrote:
SA Huguenot said: ↑
The oldest manuscripts of the Quran anyhow dates from 300 after Muhammad.

Short term memory, I suspect.

 

[Shakeel]

- You don't say. That's exactly the whole goddamn point. There is zero alternative worldview allowed. Case in point.

What is the problem with it? Do you judge it based on the list of contents or...? All religions (that people are interested in) are taught in many universities in the world, but people have to choose to go there. No one really cares about it.

However, I don't think it would be useful to offer studies on Hinduism in every university in a Muslim country. Do you?