Debate a Muslim

[SA Huguenot]

God being non-existent, made up, pagan god hubaal, conceding, all of this is just showing your complex. They are not arguments.

Whats your argument?

I rest my case.
Here we have a Muslim who challenged everyone on this forum to "bring it on", and when I say, lets talk about Q 4:157, he will do everything to run away!

If a Muslim cant even explain one very simple verse from the Quran that destroys Islam.

Sahih International:
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Mohsin Khan:
And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]:

Therefore, here we find another Muslim Scholar realising he is fighting a loosing battle.

 

[firedragon]

It starts with "So, I have heard:"

who told you this? Please brother, dont make such bogus statements.

It begins with "Ekan samayang" which means "One time".

 

[firedragon]

I rest my case.
Here we have a Muslim who challenged everyone on this forum to "bring it on", and when I say, lets talk about Q 4:157, he will do everything to run away!

If a Muslim cant even explain one very simple verse from the Quran that destroys Islam.

Sahih International:
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Mohsin Khan:
And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]:

Therefore, here we find another Muslim Scholar realising he is fighting a loosing battle.

Still no arguments. Just some ad hominem and a cut and paste. Here. Ill show you cut and paste and rhetoric.


Killing at Jericho

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 )

God Kills an Extended Family

“You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'” Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam’s wife, “Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him.” (1 Kings 14:9-16 )

Mass Murder

The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 )

The Angel of Death

That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 )

Kill Your Neighbors

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, “All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” And all the Levites came. He told them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.” The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” (Exodus 32:26-29 )

Kill the Family of Sinners

And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.” [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] “So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster’s Bible)

Kill Followers of Other Religions

While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD’s anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: “Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel.” So Moses ordered Israel’s judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man’s body and into the woman’s stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 )

Murder

At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself.” Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, “The LORD is God! The LORD is God!” Then Elijah commanded, “Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don’t let a single one escape!” So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 )

Kill All of Babylon

“Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22 )

Micah Kills a Whole Town

Then, with Micah’s idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel’s son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 ) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)

 

[SA Huguenot]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. I don't know how this works, but here we go.

- You can post your objections (or questions) against Islam here – it's scripture, theology, philosophy, law, politics, spirituality, or history –, bring your best supportive arguments & a white flag (or a prayer mat) for future use.

Good luck!

Hi Ghazaly.
Your Muslim brother seems to be very carefull not to discuss the Nails in the coffin of Islam, or Quran 4:157.
You challenged me to post my objections to Islam, a white flag, or a prayer mat.
This you did in great confidence that no one can demonstrate that Islam have evidence of fatal flaws, attempting thereby to claim, even before discussing the 'objections to Islam', that anyone comming to the front will have to submit to the authority of what you will produce in argument, and such a person will convert to Islam.
Well, I want you to explain Q4:157 to me where Muhammad pretended to reveal the words of Allah, where Allah presumptiously says:

The Jews did not crucify Jesus, and they did not kill him, but I Allah made it to appear as if Jesus was on the cross.
The people who say Jesus was crucified and died, are confused, for certainly they did not crucify or kill Jesus!

I think you should open a thread called Quran 4:157, where we can debate this huge problem in Islam's foundation.

I accept your challenge, and hope you follow up on your invitation.
If not, I will accept that you admit defeat and agree that the Quran is false, as did your Brother, Firedragon.
Greetings

 

[SA Huguenot]

Still no arguments. Just some ad hominem and a cut and paste. Here. Ill show you cut and paste and rhetoric.


Killing at Jericho

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it. They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything. (Joshua 6:20-21 )

God Kills an Extended Family

“You have done more evil than all who lived before you. You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves. And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike. I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone. I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'” Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam’s wife, “Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die. All Israel will mourn for him and bury him. He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam. And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam. This will happen today, even now! Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream. He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles. He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him.” (1 Kings 14:9-16 )

Mass Murder

The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 )

The Angel of Death

That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp. Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 )

Kill Your Neighbors

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, “All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” And all the Levites came. He told them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.” The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.” (Exodus 32:26-29 )

Kill the Family of Sinners

And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me. And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done. When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.” [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.] “So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it. And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day. (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster’s Bible)

Kill Followers of Other Religions

While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD’s anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: “Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel.” So Moses ordered Israel’s judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man’s body and into the woman’s stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 )

Murder

At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command. O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself.” Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust. It even licked up all the water in the ditch! And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, “The LORD is God! The LORD is God!” Then Elijah commanded, “Seize all the prophets of Baal. Don’t let a single one escape!” So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there. (1 Kings 18:36-40 )

Kill All of Babylon

“Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22 )

Micah Kills a Whole Town

Then, with Micah’s idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel’s son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 ) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)

Sorry Firedragon.
You admitted defeat on Q4:157.
You dont count anymore.
You had your chance to explain the Nails in the Coffin of Islam.
You admitted that you cant.
Greetings.

 

[firedragon]

Sorry Firedragon.
You admitted defeat on Q4:157.
You dont count anymore.
You had your chance to explain the Nails in the Coffin of Islam.
You admitted that you cant.
Greetings.

Mass Murder

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ (1 Samuel 15:2-3 )

You Have to Kill

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 )

The Danites Kill the Next Town

But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 )

God Kills Some More

Then the LORD said to me, “Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn’t help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, ‘But where can we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.’ “I will send four kinds of destroyers against them,” says the LORD. “I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.” (Jeremiah 15:1-4 )

God Promises More Killing

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.(Ezekiel 35:7-9 )

The Angel of Death

My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 )

Destruction of Ai

Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city.” So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: “Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, ‘The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.’ Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders.” So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.

Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn’t realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.

Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city.” Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.

When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 )

 

[firedragon]

Hi Ghazaly.
Your Muslim brother seems to be very carefull not to discuss the Nails in the coffin of Islam, or Quran 4:157.
You challenged me to post my objections to Islam, a white flag, or a prayer mat.
This you did in great confidence that no one can demonstrate that Islam have evidence of fatal flaws, attempting thereby to claim, even before discussing the 'objections to Islam', that anyone comming to the front will have to submit to the authority of what you will produce in argument, and such a person will convert to Islam.
Well, I want you to explain Q4:157 to me where Muhammad pretended to reveal the words of Allah, where Allah presumptiously says:

The Jews did not crucify Jesus, and they did not kill him, but I Allah made it to appear as if Jesus was on the cross.
The people who say Jesus was crucified and died, are confused, for certainly they did not crucify or kill Jesus!

I think you should open a thread called Quran 4:157, where we can debate this huge problem in Islam's foundation.

I accept your challenge, and hope you follow up on your invitation.
If not, I will accept that you admit defeat and agree that the Quran is false, as did your Brother, Firedragon.
Greetings

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 )

Kill Old Men and Young Women

“You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD. “With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. “As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem,” says the LORD. “Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy,” says the LORD. “I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out,” says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 )

More Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.(Isaiah 13:15-18 )


4) Miscellaneous Murders

More of Samson’s Murders

(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ***; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 )

Peter Kills Two People

There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren’t lying to us but to God.” As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, “Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?” “Yes,” she replied, “that was the price.” And Peter said, “How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too.” Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 )

 

[Aupmanyav]

That was a snapshot. How in the world will you get the same image from google image? Think practically.
I am sorry that I dont have links. I dont think there are links anyway. If you can scan it and get the text out that's great. I dont know how I can help you with that. You can scan and do what you want or ask someone who knows the language. Its all upto you. I understand though. No problem.

Think practically. If you have inserted an image, you have taken it from some source. Tell me what that source was. The google search for the image mentions that it may be about Vitamin B12 and not about what Buddha said. Or did you select a random image in a language that neither you nor me understand and posted it? That will not be a fair discussion.

As for who has written a particular thing is not important for us. What is written is important. Is it something that makes sense or is it non-sense masquerading as spiritual wisdom. We do not know who wrote BhagawadGita. It is credited to Lord Krishna who is hardly historical. We do not know who wrote Mahabharata. It has been credited to a mythological sage, VedaVyasa. But we have no history of VedaVyasa except myths. But it is OK with us, because we do not give importance to the name of the writer.

So what you are doing is saying "Since I accept it and sounds good, I attribute it to the Buddha, or some disciple, or anyone for that matter to authenticate it". Which means you are not even taking your own advice.

Yes, to accept something, I must find it good, well supported by evidence, beneficial to me in the long run and not harmful to others, otherwise I would not accept it.

 

[firedragon]

Think practically. If you have inserted an image, you have taken it from some source. Tell me what that source was.

What do you want me to do? This is the Pali Tipitaka from Abhidamma, Sutta and Vinaya Pitaka. Any day, any time, you could refer this to any expert or layman and question me. I am not a person who has internet links for everything and as I said, I have no clue if there are any internet links for these.

As for who has written a particular thing is not important for us.

But you just gave the Kalama Sutta to justify your epistemology and you gave your own understanding of it, and you are going against your own idea. Its a contradiction.

Yes, to accept something, I must find it good, well supported by evidence, beneficial to me in the long run and not harmful to others, otherwise I would not accept it.

Its a good policy. But its better to not misrepresent things. And dont learn from memes. I can see that you learned about the content of the Kalama Sutta from a meme. Try to go to the source. There is no choice. And when you have been given some information, analyse it.

Have a great day.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. I don't know how this works, but here we go.

- You can post your objections (or questions) against Islam here – it's scripture, theology, philosophy, law, politics, spirituality, or history –, bring your best supportive arguments & a white flag (or a prayer mat) for future use.

Good luck!

I have no objections or questions against Islam. Rather I will question how come you treat Islam as it?

 

[Aupmanyav]

who told you this? Please brother, dont make such bogus statements.
It begins with "Ekan samayang" which means "One time".

Soma Thera: "I heard thus .." Kalama Sutta: The Instruction to the Kalamas, Kalama Sutta: The Buddha's Charter of Free Inquiry
Thanissaro Bhikkhu: "I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One, .." AN 3.65: Kalama Sutta
Bhikkhu Sujato: "So I have heard." SuttaCentral
Suttacentral: "Evaṁ me sutaṁ - Ekam samayam .." (I have heard - at one time ..) SuttaCentral

Do you think you know better than Suttacentral, Soma Thera, Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Bhikkhu Sujato about Buddhism?
A parallel text and Bhikkhu Bodhi start it with "Ekam Samayam". The authority and majority is with "Evaṁ me sutaṁ - Ekam samayam ..".

 

[Aupmanyav]

What do you want me to do? This is the Pali Tipitaka from Abhidamma, Sutta and Vinaya Pitaka. Any day, any time, you could refer this to any expert or layman and question me. I am not a person who has internet links for everything and as I said, I have no clue if there are any internet links for these.

But you just gave the Kalama Sutta to justify your epistemology and you gave your own understanding of it, and you are going against your own idea. Its a contradiction.

Its a good policy. But its better to not misrepresent things. And dont learn from memes. Try to go to the source. And when you have been given some information, analyse it.

But you sure had the link since you inserted the image in a post. Now you are not ready to give me that link.

I said earlier that it is not important for me as to who wrote the text. What is written is more important. It does not matter to me if "Kedamutti Sutta" was the conversation of Buddha with Kalamas or that a Bhikkhu made it up. The value is in what is written, if any, and not in the person who wrote it. I have not changed my view. See my posts 680, and 690.

Due to my basic knowledge in Sanskrit, I can many a times understand what is written in Pali. Where have I misrepresented things? I have links to the source also (Suttacentral). I know Kesamutti Sutta for the last 20 years and I have thoroughly analyzed it and accept the main principle.

Here are the contested lines: "Yadā tumhe, kālāmā, attanāva jāneyyātha: ‘ime dhammā akusalā, ime dhammā sāvajjā, ime dhammā viññugarahitā, ime dhammā samattā samādinnā ahitāya dukkhāya saṁvattantī’ti, atha tumhe, kālāmā, pajaheyyātha." (Suttacentral)

I quite understand why you are contesting these lines. You want to say that since in your view Muhammad was a wise person and if he said he got Quran from Allah, then it must be accepted as the truth.
In my view what a man said is to be analyzed and checked against evidence to establish that what that person said was true or false, and never without evidence.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Mass Murder

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ (1 Samuel 15:2-3 )

You Have to Kill

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 )

The Danites Kill the Next Town

But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 )

God Kills Some More

Then the LORD said to me, “Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn’t help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, ‘But where can we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.’ “I will send four kinds of destroyers against them,” says the LORD. “I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.” (Jeremiah 15:1-4 )

God Promises More Killing

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.(Ezekiel 35:7-9 )

The Angel of Death

My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out. (Exodus 23:23 )

Destruction of Ai

Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid or discouraged. Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city.” So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai. Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: “Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action. When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them. We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, ‘The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.’ Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you. Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded. You have your orders.” So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai. But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night.

Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel. They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city. That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city. Joshua himself spent that night in the valley. When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley. But he didn’t realize there was an ambush behind the city. Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten, and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them. In this way, they were lured away from the city. There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open.

Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city.” Joshua did as he was commanded. As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city. They quickly captured it and set it on fire. When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers. When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai. Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped. Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.

When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside. So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all. For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed. Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua. So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day. Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate. They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today. (Joshua 8:1-29 )

Anyhow, now that you admitted defeat, why dont you open a thread where the so called "Atrocities" you copy and paste everytime, can be discussed?
If you dont, well, it is a demonstration that you done have the courrage to even adress me with your silly argument.

Lets see, perhaps we now have a Muslim that can debate me on the Biblical problematic verses.
Perhaps I should prepare your baptism?

 

[firedragon]

Suttacentral: "Evaṁ me sutaṁ - Ekam samayam .." (I have heard - at one time ..) SuttaCentral

I am not saying I know better than anyone. Maybe you wish to argue about something and you are finding that something. Lol. The problem is, you propagated that the Buddha said not to listen to "parampara" which means what was handed down, or hear say etc etc. But now you are trying to argue that the Kalama Sutta is hear say saying "I have heard" or that the text says that.

Dont you see that you are defying yourself? You are claiming this is hear say, which says "dont follow hearsay".

• Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing (anussava), was from your own cut and paste.

Anyway. You are trying to appeal to authority. Its a logical fallacy.

This text you are quoting "Evam me sutam" does not exist in the text. So who ever you quote, you must consult and ask "where did you get that text from". And if its from the original text or what ever we have left, I will concede that the text says it. No problem.

But again, this would only make you inconsistent because you are saying one should not listen to hear say, you are saying the Sutta says "one should not listen to hear say", you even cut and pasted from a wikipedia page the line that says "hearsay", and now you are saying the whole thing is "hearsay".

You forgot that you trying to find some argument has argued against you.

Peace.

 

[Meow Mix]

At this point y’all should just arm wrestle or something.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am old person, completing 79 in September, not of the arm wrestling age, but I can argue it in a forum post. I am not completely senile.

But again, this would only make you inconsistent because you are saying one should not listen to hear say, you are saying the Sutta says "one should not listen to hear say", you even cut and pasted from a wikipedia page the line that says "hearsay", and now you are saying the whole thing is "hearsay".

No, I have not deviated from my path. The sutta says that what wise men say should be listened to but it does not say that it should be accepted without checking with evidence (even if it is supposed to have been said by a supposedly wise man). "attanāva jāneyyātha" (when you know for certain that it is like that), then only it should be accepted.

 

[Meow Mix]

I am old person, completing 79 in September, not of the arm wrestling age, but I can argue it in a forum post. I am not completely senile.

You might be able to beat me, I used to have relatively strong arms but I’ve been slacking ^.^

But I think this is between @SA Huguenot and @firedragon . I’m just teasing them since that conversation doesn’t seem to be working out haha.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You might be able to beat me, I used to have relatively strong arms but I’ve been slacking ^.^

But I think this is between @SA Huguenot and @firedragon . I’m just teasing them since that conversation doesn’t seem to be working out haha.

The problem I have with a debate of the truth of how understand a text as text says nothing about the text and its correspondence with rest of the world.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You might be able to beat me, I used to have relatively strong arms but I’ve been slacking ^.^

You are young, perhaps much younger than me. You should find time for exercise out of your daily routine.

 

[firedragon]

But you sure had the link since you inserted the image in a post. Now you are not ready to give me that link.

No. There is no link. Mate. Just because you are used to "links" and quick googling, dont think others are just lying.

Due to my basic knowledge in Sanskrit, I can many a times understand what is written in Pali. Where have I misrepresented things?

You put your own text, which was a misrepresentation.

I understand why you are contesting these lines. You want to say that since in your view Muhammad was a wise person and if he said he got Quran from Allah, then it must be accepted as the truth.

Nope. Its your imagination. Maybe you think others are just like you. I dont think any of these teachings have much of authenticity. So am only quoting the text which you have claimed were what the Buddha said.

In my view what a man said is to be analyzed and checked against evidence to establish that what that person said was true or false, and never without evidence.

Very good. I agree.

Here are the contested lines: "Yadā tumhe, kālāmā, attanāva jāneyyātha: ‘ime dhammā akusalā, ime dhammā sāvajjā, ime dhammā viññugarahitā, ime dhammā samattā samādinnā ahitāya dukkhāya saṁvattantī’ti, atha tumhe, kālāmā, pajaheyyātha." (Suttacentral)

What is contested about those "lines"? Tell me what "Atha" means.