Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
I am not teaching anything. You yourself said that you do not think Suttacentral is bogus. Then what is the problem in accepting what it says?
OK, I will leave these things here. Perhaps it is the matter of another topic.
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Debate a Muslim
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OK, I will leave these things here. Perhaps it is the matter of another topic.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I am not teaching anything. You yourself said that you do not think Suttacentral is bogus. Then what is the problem in accepting what it says?
OK, I will leave these things here. Perhaps it is the matter of another topic.
The thing is Aupmanyav, I never go to secondary sources unless its a subject I have no clue of. I have never studied off this website you refer to, and in fact I dont like English transliteration, the pronunciation is absolutely bad in English transliteration, and cannot even understand what the original really says. Anyway all that is not relevant.
I will find out why this website uses a few words that dont exist in the most authentic documents we have, but they may have a very valid reason, which I will find out.
But that's not relevant. None of that is relevant to the meaning of Kalama Sutta. You cut and pasted an English translation from a Wikipedia article and you added your own interpretation which I learned later is a common mistake a lot of people who read off internet memes think. And I believe you didnt even read that particular wikipedia article you cut and pasted. You presented a small portion of that page, but you had not even read the full page.
We call it richi meletti. Its greek for superficial analysis. Its a phenomena of the internet age. I would beg you to be more thorough in your analysis.
I am gonna leave this conversation. Have a good day. No hard feelings brother. Peace.
A
To be fair this avatar is probably 8 years old (holy crap it’s been that long already?)
I will wear a new one when I inevitably change it here in 30 minutes or so, whenever I get out of bed. Most have been from the last year or so. This last weekend (the one before this) was taken this weekend. They all look the same to me though but then again I see my face the most.
(Actually that’s not true, I have seen some older ones posted in Post your Pic I posted a decade ago and thought “who is this child!!”)
There are some who deserve good conversation, even if we disagree.
There are some who dont deserve anything but some random cut and pastes.
Anyway, I told you that you look very young. Aup just told you so.
To be fair this avatar is probably 8 years old (holy crap it’s been that long already?)
I will wear a new one when I inevitably change it here in 30 minutes or so, whenever I get out of bed. Most have been from the last year or so. This last weekend (the one before this) was taken this weekend. They all look the same to me though but then again I see my face the most.
(Actually that’s not true, I have seen some older ones posted in Post your Pic I posted a decade ago and thought “who is this child!!”)
firedragon
Veteran Member
You are such a sweetheart, yet an astrophysicist within. Deadly combination.
Someone who worships gods that are not the god of Abraham
[9:5] But when the forbidden 4 months are past, then fight and slay the Polytheists wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.Quran 9:5
I've got a copy of the Quran by doctor Muhammed Taqi-ud-Al-Hiiall, seems every second verse condemns unbelievers and "idolaters" to a fiery punishment.
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There are some who deserve good conversation, even if we disagree.
There are some who dont deserve anything but some random cut and pastes.
Anyway, I told you that you look very young. Aup just told you so.
Here you go @firedragon , this one is not 8 years old. You can see all the lines and ravages of time.
firedragon
Veteran Member
What about those who worship their own ego or desire?
firedragon
Veteran Member
So are you claiming this is "Because they are polytheists or idolators or is there another reason"? You have the Qur'an so please read it and tell me.
What does that have to do with anything. Should pagans be put to death or not?
If you take a magnifying glass and squint and then a hallucinate a little bit or something, I don't see lines and ravages.
It's because they don't worship your little allah, isn't it? I would probably fight against your cult if I were a Arabian pagan in the 6th century because it seems like bs.
I appreciate it. I have to remind myself often that I'm 37 and that's real close to the big 4-0. It's surreal sometimes how easy it is to just forget about time, I still feel like I'm in my 20's.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Of course not. Where does there Quran say "pagans should be put to death for being pagans"?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Ahhh. You are another one who is not here to make any decent discussion but just insult right. Little Allah? Lol. Here you go. People as cheap as you also deserve cut and pastes. Here we go again.
Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)
Death for Fornication
A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 )
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 )
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 )
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 )
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 )
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 )
Ah, so pagans should only be put death when they resist monotheistic tyranny? got it.
firedragon
Veteran Member
You are such a pleasant, beautiful person.
Are you seriously quoting Bible verses to a pagan? that is hilarious.
Same, I always forget I am way past 30 now. Always feel like I'm in my twenties.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Nope. You just made up a lie because of ignorance.
The chapter is about a broken treaty mate. Read. Dont just cherry pick. Oh but you dont intend to read but cherry pick and insult. This will be the only proper post I give you unless you resort to good, decent discussion.
Cherry Picking
Lo and behold, the Quran has a verse that says kill them Polytheists. Quran chapter 9:5.
The internet is full of lists. You can search and find what you like. So, one goes online and searches for something like “Violence in Islam” of course you will find a list that suits your search. Then you pick one of the Juicy ones and post it here and there feigning you have read the whole Quran and this particular verse sums them all up.
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
But oh, what is this thing about the restricted months? Is there a context to this verse?
Let’s go back a few verses. Just a few verses for a start.
9:1 A revocation is made by God and His messenger to those with whom you have made a pledge from among the polytheists.
Baraathun/revocation/a freedom of obligation/disassociation.
Why is this disassociation? Is it BECAUSE they are so called Polytheists?
9:3 And a proclamation from God and His messenger to the people, on the day of the greater Pilgrimage: “That God and His messenger are innocent from the polytheists.” If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution.
Not really. This is a people who had a treaty with you and they broke it.
Then the Quran says “Except those who kept the pledges in the treaty”. Thus, none of this is about all the polytheists.
9:4 Except for those with whom you had made a pledge from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they support anyone against you; you shall continue the pledge with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous.
So you give them 4 months as a period of reconciliation. They have broken the treaty, you have given them time, and there is no option but to battle.
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Then comes the mercy if they are seeking your protection.
9:6 And if any of the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctity. This is because they are a people who do not know.
9:8 How is it that when they come upon you they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts deny, and the majority of them are wicked.
They are not called polytheists because of their belief alone, it is because they are cheaters as a people. They broke a pledge and they did not keep their promises.
As long as they are upright with you, you are upright with them. 9:7.
9:12 And if they break their oaths after making their pledge, and they challenge the authority of your Dheen; then you may kill the leaders of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.
You are allowed only the leaders of the oath-breaking, aggressive nation who fought you and attacked you first. Which means those who fight you. The governance. Not every tom, dick and harry.
They are the aggressors. They attacked you first. Not that you are to go seeking all over the world and find all the polytheists and kill them. Read.
9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths, and obsessed to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Are you concerned about them? It is God who is more deserving that you be concerned with if you are believers.
You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed.
4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from yourself a Supporter, and grant us from yourself a Victor!”
You must fight on behalf of the weak
4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from Yourself a Supporter, and grant us from Yourself a Victor!”
Charities to be used for just cause
9:60 The charities are to go to the poor, and the needy, and those who work to collect them, and those whose hearts have been united, and to free the slaves, and those in debt, and in the cause of God, and the wayfarer. A duty from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
You cannot kill unjustly
17:33 And do not kill, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory. Just cause to kill is aggression, but you are not allowed to be the aggressor.
2:190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.
2:191 And kill them wherever you overcome them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
2:193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God’s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.
Iqra. Read.
2:263 Kind words and forgiveness are far better than a charity that is followed by harm. God is Rich, Compassionate.
2:264 O you who believe, do not nullify your charities with insult and harm; like the one who spends his money in vanity to show off to the people, and he does not believe in God and the Last Day. His example is like a stone on which there is dust, then it is subjected to a heavy rain which leaves it bare. They cannot do anything with what they have earned; and God does not guide the rejecting people.
2:265 And the example of those who spend their money seeking the grace of God, and to save their souls, is like the example of a garden that is on a high ground and is subjected to a heavy rain, and because of that it produces double its crop. And if no heavy rain comes, then it still gives enough. And God is Seer of what you do.
Peace
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