See now it's my turn, I'd have put you in your 20's if I had to guess by avatar ^.^
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Debate a Muslim
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See now it's my turn, I'd have put you in your 20's if I had to guess by avatar ^.^
firedragon
Veteran Member
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 )
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 )
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die.(Leviticus 24:10-16 )
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 )
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 )
Haha thanks. That is a picture of me last year in the summer.
@firedragon he don't believe in Bible brother. I'm always rooting for you but this time it does not make sense.
So an atheist said something which made you feel insulted and you decided to retaliate against Christians? ROFL
firedragon
Veteran Member
Haha. Got it Got it.
Your Quran is just as intolerant and nonsensical as the Bible, there is no difference. Way to ignore the verse I quoted, talk about denial. Should I quote others?
firedragon
Veteran Member
So an atheist makes such a cherry picking, insulting, cheap job and since he is speaking against Islam, you camp with him? ROFL.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Nope. I didnt ignore. I gave a full explanation. Since you are making a bogus statement, let me cut and paste again.
Cherry Picking
Lo and behold, the Quran has a verse that says kill them Polytheists. Quran chapter 9:5.
The internet is full of lists. You can search and find what you like. So, one goes online and searches for something like “Violence in Islam” of course you will find a list that suits your search. Then you pick one of the Juicy ones and post it here and there feigning you have read the whole Quran and this particular verse sums them all up.
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
But oh, what is this thing about the restricted months? Is there a context to this verse?
Let’s go back a few verses. Just a few verses for a start.
9:1 A revocation is made by God and His messenger to those with whom you have made a pledge from among the polytheists.
Baraathun/revocation/a freedom of obligation/disassociation.
Why is this disassociation? Is it BECAUSE they are so called Polytheists?
9:3 And a proclamation from God and His messenger to the people, on the day of the greater Pilgrimage: “That God and His messenger are innocent from the polytheists.” If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution.
Not really. This is a people who had a treaty with you and they broke it.
Then the Quran says “Except those who kept the pledges in the treaty”. Thus, none of this is about all the polytheists.
9:4 Except for those with whom you had made a pledge from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they support anyone against you; you shall continue the pledge with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous.
So you give them 4 months as a period of reconciliation. They have broken the treaty, you have given them time, and there is no option but to battle.
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Then comes the mercy if they are seeking your protection.
9:6 And if any of the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctity. This is because they are a people who do not know.
9:8 How is it that when they come upon you they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts deny, and the majority of them are wicked.
They are not called polytheists because of their belief alone, it is because they are cheaters as a people. They broke a pledge and they did not keep their promises.
As long as they are upright with you, you are upright with them. 9:7.
9:12 And if they break their oaths after making their pledge, and they challenge the authority of your Dheen; then you may kill the leaders of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.
You are allowed only the leaders of the oath-breaking, aggressive nation who fought you and attacked you first. Which means those who fight you. The governance. Not every tom, dick and harry.
They are the aggressors. They attacked you first. Not that you are to go seeking all over the world and find all the polytheists and kill them. Read.
9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths, and obsessed to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Are you concerned about them? It is God who is more deserving that you be concerned with if you are believers.
You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed.
4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from yourself a Supporter, and grant us from yourself a Victor!”
You must fight on behalf of the weak
4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from Yourself a Supporter, and grant us from Yourself a Victor!”
Charities to be used for just cause
9:60 The charities are to go to the poor, and the needy, and those who work to collect them, and those whose hearts have been united, and to free the slaves, and those in debt, and in the cause of God, and the wayfarer. A duty from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
You cannot kill unjustly
17:33 And do not kill, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory. Just cause to kill is aggression, but you are not allowed to be the aggressor.
2:190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.
2:191 And kill them wherever you overcome them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
2:193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God’s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.
Iqra. Read.
2:263 Kind words and forgiveness are far better than a charity that is followed by harm. God is Rich, Compassionate.
2:264 O you who believe, do not nullify your charities with insult and harm; like the one who spends his money in vanity to show off to the people, and he does not believe in God and the Last Day. His example is like a stone on which there is dust, then it is subjected to a heavy rain which leaves it bare. They cannot do anything with what they have earned; and God does not guide the rejecting people.
2:265 And the example of those who spend their money seeking the grace of God, and to save their souls, is like the example of a garden that is on a high ground and is subjected to a heavy rain, and because of that it produces double its crop. And if no heavy rain comes, then it still gives enough. And God is Seer of what you do.
Peace
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
2:191 Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. (Fight the unbelievers until they either convert or are dead.)
4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil.
4:91 Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.
4:101 "The disbelievers are an open enemy to you."
8:39 "Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah."
9:5 "Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush."
9:29 "Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah."
9:73 "Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end."
9:123 "Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you."
60:13 "Be not friendly with a folk with whom Allah is wroth, (a folk) who have despaired of the Hereafter."
66:9 "Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
And that's not including the almost countless times disbelievers have been told they will go to hell and be the owners of the fire and have a painful doom. Apparently Allah likes dealing out the death and suffering himself.
This is a good book: Jihad, The Holy War of Islam and Its Legitimacy in the Quran | Al-Islam.org
You are an open minded guy Tiberius. Give that a book read.
I did not camp with anyone lol
firedragon
Veteran Member
The question was "Of course not. Where does there Quran say "pagans should be put to death for being pagans"?"
You will not find one single verse that says "pagans should be put to death for being pagans".
Cherry picking cut and paste?
Read up.
Cherry Picking
Lo and behold, the Quran has a verse that says kill them Polytheists. Quran chapter 9:5.
The internet is full of lists. You can search and find what you like. So, one goes online and searches for something like “Violence in Islam” of course you will find a list that suits your search. Then you pick one of the Juicy ones and post it here and there feigning you have read the whole Quran and this particular verse sums them all up.
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
But oh, what is this thing about the restricted months? Is there a context to this verse?
Let’s go back a few verses. Just a few verses for a start.
9:1 A revocation is made by God and His messenger to those with whom you have made a pledge from among the polytheists.
Baraathun/revocation/a freedom of obligation/disassociation.
Why is this disassociation? Is it BECAUSE they are so called Polytheists?
9:3 And a proclamation from God and His messenger to the people, on the day of the greater Pilgrimage: “That God and His messenger are innocent from the polytheists.” If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution.
Not really. This is a people who had a treaty with you and they broke it.
Then the Quran says “Except those who kept the pledges in the treaty”. Thus, none of this is about all the polytheists.
9:4 Except for those with whom you had made a pledge from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they support anyone against you; you shall continue the pledge with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous.
So you give them 4 months as a period of reconciliation. They have broken the treaty, you have given them time, and there is no option but to battle.
9:5 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the Communion, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Then comes the mercy if they are seeking your protection.
9:6 And if any of the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the words of God, then let him reach his sanctity. This is because they are a people who do not know.
9:8 How is it that when they come upon you they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts deny, and the majority of them are wicked.
They are not called polytheists because of their belief alone, it is because they are cheaters as a people. They broke a pledge and they did not keep their promises.
As long as they are upright with you, you are upright with them. 9:7.
9:12 And if they break their oaths after making their pledge, and they challenge the authority of your Dheen; then you may kill the leaders of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.
You are allowed only the leaders of the oath-breaking, aggressive nation who fought you and attacked you first. Which means those who fight you. The governance. Not every tom, dick and harry.
They are the aggressors. They attacked you first. Not that you are to go seeking all over the world and find all the polytheists and kill them. Read.
9:13 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths, and obsessed to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Are you concerned about them? It is God who is more deserving that you be concerned with if you are believers.
You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed.
4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from yourself a Supporter, and grant us from yourself a Victor!”
You must fight on behalf of the weak
4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from Yourself a Supporter, and grant us from Yourself a Victor!”
Charities to be used for just cause
9:60 The charities are to go to the poor, and the needy, and those who work to collect them, and those whose hearts have been united, and to free the slaves, and those in debt, and in the cause of God, and the wayfarer. A duty from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
You cannot kill unjustly
17:33 And do not kill, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory. Just cause to kill is aggression, but you are not allowed to be the aggressor.
2:190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.
2:191 And kill them wherever you overcome them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the disbelievers.
2:192 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
2:193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God’s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.
Iqra. Read.
2:263 Kind words and forgiveness are far better than a charity that is followed by harm. God is Rich, Compassionate.
2:264 O you who believe, do not nullify your charities with insult and harm; like the one who spends his money in vanity to show off to the people, and he does not believe in God and the Last Day. His example is like a stone on which there is dust, then it is subjected to a heavy rain which leaves it bare. They cannot do anything with what they have earned; and God does not guide the rejecting people.
2:265 And the example of those who spend their money seeking the grace of God, and to save their souls, is like the example of a garden that is on a high ground and is subjected to a heavy rain, and because of that it produces double its crop. And if no heavy rain comes, then it still gives enough. And God is Seer of what you do.
Peace
firedragon
Veteran Member
Oh yes you did. Lol. The hate spreading camp. Enemy of the enemy is your friend right?
This so called friend of yours said "little Allah" in disrespect. Did you try asking why? When he cherry picked a verse did you ask why? Of course not.
@Tiberius we are living in a generation that has forgotten norms of language.
Mutahari (r) clarifies:
B- Unconditional verses about Jihad
I said that some of the Qur’anic instructions about jihad against kuffar (disbelievers) are unconditional, which means they state only this: “O Prophet Fight with the Kuffar and the hypocrites.” Or, in the case the verse pertaining to which we recited, after a period which is given to the polytheists (four months), if they have not adopted Islam or haven't migrated, then they are to be killed. (Note: Whether this migration means to the surroundings of Mecca and around, or elsewhere, is a question to be discussed late.) Or that verse with which we began our discussion and which is about the People of the Book.
« Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth» (9:29).
or another verse:
« O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. » (9:73).
If we were to pay attention only to this verse, we would say that Islam fully instructs the Muslims to fight against kuffar and hypocrites and they (Muslims) must never be in a state of peace with them, that Muslims must fight them, as vehemently as they can. They must fight them. If we maintain this rhetoric, we will come to believe that the Qur’an unconditionally tells us to fight the non-Muslims.
I stated, however, that there is a scholastic rule that when both an unconditional and a conditional command exist, i.e. when there is an instruction that in one place is unconditional but in another place has a condition attached, then, according to the ulama’, the unconditional must be interpreted as the conditional. The verses I have just recited are unconditional.
Other verses exist that are conditional, meaning that they read like this: “O Muslims. Fight against those polytheists for the reason that they are in aggression against you, because they are in a state of war with you, and therefore you definitely have to fight against them.”
Thus it becomes clear that where the Qur’an says: “O Prophet Fight against the kuffar and hypocrites,” it means that we must fight those kuffar and hypocrites who are fighting us and who will continue fighting if we fight them.
C- Conditional Verses
In Suratul-Baqarah, the Qur’an tells us:
« Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.» (2:190)
The Qur’an calls to those of faith, to fight those who will fight them - i.e. fight them because they are fighting - but do not violate the limit. What does this mean, not to violate the limit? Does it mean to not be the transgressor?
The obvious meaning of this verse is that we are to fight only those who are fighting us, not anyone else. Moreover, we are to fight only on the battleground, against a certain group of people (soldiers employed by the other side), the men of war whom they prepared for war against us. It is these who we are to fight, and we cannot turn away in cowardice. We must cross swords, exchange bullets, and fight.
But with everyone else – those who are not men of war, soldiers, not in a state of combat, including old men, women of all ages, and children – we cannot interfere, and we cannot transgress their rights. Acts of transgressions we are forbidden from doing include, among other things, ruining their economic resources (cutting down their trees, filling their canals).
Do not be misled to believe that the destruction of homes and property is inevitable if we are to engage in war with enemy soldiers. The question of avoiding these occasions is a separate issue. In Islam, military operations directed at damaging houses and other personal property are forbidden unless there is no other option.
Another conditional verse is the one we discussed from Suratul-Hajj. In fact these are five to six consecutive verses, and the first revealed verses on jihad. These verses say that because the other side has lifted its sword in opposition to us, we can do the same.
In another verse of Surah at-Tawba, we are told:
«… fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together…» (9:36)
Mutahari (r) clarifies:
B- Unconditional verses about Jihad
I said that some of the Qur’anic instructions about jihad against kuffar (disbelievers) are unconditional, which means they state only this: “O Prophet Fight with the Kuffar and the hypocrites.” Or, in the case the verse pertaining to which we recited, after a period which is given to the polytheists (four months), if they have not adopted Islam or haven't migrated, then they are to be killed. (Note: Whether this migration means to the surroundings of Mecca and around, or elsewhere, is a question to be discussed late.) Or that verse with which we began our discussion and which is about the People of the Book.
« Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth» (9:29).
or another verse:
« O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. » (9:73).
If we were to pay attention only to this verse, we would say that Islam fully instructs the Muslims to fight against kuffar and hypocrites and they (Muslims) must never be in a state of peace with them, that Muslims must fight them, as vehemently as they can. They must fight them. If we maintain this rhetoric, we will come to believe that the Qur’an unconditionally tells us to fight the non-Muslims.
I stated, however, that there is a scholastic rule that when both an unconditional and a conditional command exist, i.e. when there is an instruction that in one place is unconditional but in another place has a condition attached, then, according to the ulama’, the unconditional must be interpreted as the conditional. The verses I have just recited are unconditional.
Other verses exist that are conditional, meaning that they read like this: “O Muslims. Fight against those polytheists for the reason that they are in aggression against you, because they are in a state of war with you, and therefore you definitely have to fight against them.”
Thus it becomes clear that where the Qur’an says: “O Prophet Fight against the kuffar and hypocrites,” it means that we must fight those kuffar and hypocrites who are fighting us and who will continue fighting if we fight them.
C- Conditional Verses
In Suratul-Baqarah, the Qur’an tells us:
« Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.» (2:190)
The Qur’an calls to those of faith, to fight those who will fight them - i.e. fight them because they are fighting - but do not violate the limit. What does this mean, not to violate the limit? Does it mean to not be the transgressor?
The obvious meaning of this verse is that we are to fight only those who are fighting us, not anyone else. Moreover, we are to fight only on the battleground, against a certain group of people (soldiers employed by the other side), the men of war whom they prepared for war against us. It is these who we are to fight, and we cannot turn away in cowardice. We must cross swords, exchange bullets, and fight.
But with everyone else – those who are not men of war, soldiers, not in a state of combat, including old men, women of all ages, and children – we cannot interfere, and we cannot transgress their rights. Acts of transgressions we are forbidden from doing include, among other things, ruining their economic resources (cutting down their trees, filling their canals).
Do not be misled to believe that the destruction of homes and property is inevitable if we are to engage in war with enemy soldiers. The question of avoiding these occasions is a separate issue. In Islam, military operations directed at damaging houses and other personal property are forbidden unless there is no other option.
Another conditional verse is the one we discussed from Suratul-Hajj. In fact these are five to six consecutive verses, and the first revealed verses on jihad. These verses say that because the other side has lifted its sword in opposition to us, we can do the same.
In another verse of Surah at-Tawba, we are told:
«… fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together…» (9:36)
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
I have enough demands on my time as it is, I don't have the time to go and read a book justifying a religion I don't believe in. In any case, I suspect that it's just going to be filled with other passages which are claimed to show that these passages I quoted don't count. I've seen the same tactics from other religions, and it's always unconvincing. Spin that is only done as damage control. I don't buy it.
Of course, if you have any specific claims that you'd like to post in this thread, I'd be happy to address them.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Some of the most prolific, educated and consistent scholars in this world are atheists. Why dont you try to be as good as them rather than resorting to these cheap attempts at some insults?
Make some decent analysis.
Make some decent analysis.
It's actually comes down to in summary of how language works. If you state the conditions, you don't have to repeat them. Because God does not repeat the conditions, you think it means you can fight without those conditions. This is wrong and would make mentioning conditions in the first place pointless.
I would have put a like on the post if I agreed with it.
I do not condone hatred of anyone.
firedragon
Veteran Member
You cut and pasted some cherry picked verses. The same verses have a context of the following verses, preceding verses, chapter, and the whole book. So when you cherry pick, you are intentionally misrepresenting a book. Intentionally.
And now you are rejecting some other work with an assumption it is similar in tactic to your own cut and paste.
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