December?

[sojourner]

canaanite worship is far removes from true worship. and the true God does not want his people to be involved with pagan things, and that has always been the case .

(Exodus 33:2) And I will send an angel ahead of you and drive out the Ca´naan·ites, the Am´or·ites, and the Hit´tites and the Per´iz·zites, the Hi´vites and the Jeb´u·sites;​

(Joshua 3:10) After that Joshua said: "By this YOU will know that a living God is in YOUR midst, and that he will without fail drive away from before YOU the Ca´naan·ites and the Hit´tites and the Hi´vites and the Per´iz·zites and the Gir´ga·****es and the Am´or·ites and the Jeb´u·sites.
(Deuteronomy 7:1) "When Jehovah your God at last brings you into the land to which you are going so as to take possession of it, he must also clear away populous nations from before you, the Hit´tites and the Gir´ga·****es and the Am´or·ites and the Ca´naan·ites and the Per´iz·zites and the Hi´vites and the Jeb´u·sites, seven nations more populous and mighty than you are.......................

Our best archaeological placement of the invasion of Canaan is ca. 1250 b.c.e. If Joshua and Judges are true, then they would corroborate the story. However, Judges does not corroborate Joshua. Joshua states that the conquest was total, and that Jerusalem was captured. Judges states in 1:1-20 that the conquest was not total, and that Jerusalem was burned. However, Judges 1:21-36 states that the conquest was only partial, and that Jerusalem was not captured. II Samuel 5 corroborates Judges 1:21-36.

There is no burn layer in Jerusalem from that time period. There is nothing in the archaeological record to indicate an invasion of an ethnically different group. There are no extra-Biblical corroborative writings.

This is not an ivasion, it's not a mass immigration. Israel is not a distinctive social group, but revolutionized Canaanites, showing a different theological ideology.

However, what is evident in the archaeological record is that Canaanite worship and Hebrew worship practices were not significantly different from each other.

Philip Davies (University of Sheffield) asserts that Ezra and Nehemiah came from Babylonia in the mid-400's with a copy of the Torah. What we now have in the Pentateuch is invented history, brought to Jerusalem from the Persian beaurocrats who have come to rule the strategic area around Jerusalem. Abraham was from the Shiite region of moder Iraq. How convenient that we now have a story that says to the local people, "Your God, YHWH, gave us this land." This whole story is Persian imperial propaganda, to justify their claims over this area of land.

Whether Davies is completely correct or not, it certainly fits with what we know from the archaeological record.

The Canaanite creator-god, El, is the same El from which the name "Jehovah" is derived (in conjunction with the Hebrew name YHWH.)

 

[may]

The Canaanite creator-god, El, is the same El from which the name "Jehovah" is derived (in conjunction with the Hebrew name YHWH.)

Jehovah’s very name testifies to his truthfulness. The divine name means "He Causes to Become." This identifies Jehovah as the one who progressively becomes the Fulfiller of all that he promises. No one else is in that position. Because Jehovah is the Supreme One, nothing can thwart the realization of his purposes. Not only is Jehovah truthful but he alone has the power and the wisdom to make all that he says come true.

In 1473 B.C.E., Joshua led the Israelites into the Promised Land. In a powerful exhortation uttered before his death, Joshua entreated the whole nation: "Now if it is bad in your eyes to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, whether the gods that your forefathers who were on the other side of the River served or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are dwelling." Then, referring to his family, he continued: "As for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah."—Joshua 24:15.
Earlier, Jehovah had urged Joshua to be courageous and strong, instructing him not to deviate from obedience to God’s Law. Rather, by reading the book of the Law in an undertone day and night, Joshua would be able to make his way successful. (Joshua 1:7, 8) And so it proved to be. Joshua’s choice led to blessings. "Not a promise failed out of all the good promise that Jehovah had made to the house of Israel," Joshua declared. "It all came true."—Joshua 21:45.​

In contrast, consider the situation in Israel some 700 years later. By that time, many Israelites were following pagan customs.

 

[sojourner]

Jehovah’s very name testifies to his truthfulness. The divine name means "He Causes to Become." This identifies Jehovah as the one who progressively becomes the Fulfiller of all that he promises. No one else is in that position. Because Jehovah is the Supreme One, nothing can thwart the realization of his purposes. Not only is Jehovah truthful but he alone has the power and the wisdom to make all that he says come true.

In 1473 B.C.E., Joshua led the Israelites into the Promised Land. In a powerful exhortation uttered before his death, Joshua entreated the whole nation: "Now if it is bad in your eyes to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, whether the gods that your forefathers who were on the other side of the River served or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are dwelling." Then, referring to his family, he continued: "As for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah."—Joshua 24:15.
Earlier, Jehovah had urged Joshua to be courageous and strong, instructing him not to deviate from obedience to God’s Law. Rather, by reading the book of the Law in an undertone day and night, Joshua would be able to make his way successful. (Joshua 1:7, 8) And so it proved to be. Joshua’s choice led to blessings. "Not a promise failed out of all the good promise that Jehovah had made to the house of Israel," Joshua declared. "It all came true."—Joshua 21:45.​

In contrast, consider the situation in Israel some 700 years later. By that time, many Israelites were following pagan customs.

The archaeological record does not corroborate that date of 1473. It also does not corroborate that there was significant difference in worship practices between the various tribes of Canaan.:no:

None of this has much (if anything) to do with the validity of celebrating the Nativity on December 25. We are not celebrating "Jesus' birthday," with all of the well-wishes, candles and cakes that come with such a celebration. Rather, we celebrate the Incarnation. Because of that, we believe that the good fortune is not Jesus', but ours. The Nativity is patently not a pagan celebration. We don't hold that December 25 is the "real date." There is nothing pagan about the celebration of the Incarnation. Whatever you might choose to think.

 

[may]

The archaeological record does not corroborate that date of 1473. It also does not corroborate that there was significant difference in worship practices between the various tribes of Canaan.:no:

None of this has much (if anything) to do with the validity of celebrating the Nativity on December 25. We are not celebrating "Jesus' birthday," with all of the well-wishes, candles and cakes that come with such a celebration. Rather, we celebrate the Incarnation. Because of that, we believe that the good fortune is not Jesus', but ours. The Nativity is patently not a pagan celebration. We don't hold that December 25 is the "real date." There is nothing pagan about the celebration of the Incarnation. Whatever you might choose to think.

as i said earlier, mixing true with false is not good in the eyes of the most high.

 

[gmelrod]

But the most important part of worship is intent. If people intend to give glory to god and use the image of his son to do so the date on which that happens is unimportant. If God desired us to celibrate the festival of his son's birth on a specific date then he would have suplied the date. Jesus himself practiced changing the intent of riuals. He turned the celebration of passover into the eucharist.

 

[may]

Jesus' Birth--The Real Story - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site
The real Jesus is often lost in Christmas celebrations. Why, there is no record that he ever even told the disciples his date of birth; nor is there any indication that his followers celebrated his birthday.............. good link

 

[wizanda]

On a hunch i think it was September

 

[may]

On a hunch i think it was September

or maybe beginning of october

 

[wizanda]

We could check the census times of the Romans, as they purposely insisted everyone attended at certain time of the year, as the story of Mary and Joseph shows.....
Then if we can find that, we are within a closer timeline.....doubt it would be in the middle of winter though, so autumn would make more sense, then they could TAX us more as they are still doing….bit easier now though as we all have a NI number given us at birth to buy and trade…..

 

[sojourner]

as i said earlier, mixing true with false is not good in the eyes of the most high.

This corroborates or refutes my argument in what way?

 

[may]

The real Jesus is often lost in Christmas celebrations. Why, there is no record that he ever even told the disciples his date of birth; nor is there any indication that his followers celebrated his birthday.
It was not Jesus’ birth but his death—and its history-making significance—that he commanded his followers to commemorate. (Luke 22:19, 20) No, it was not as a helpless baby in a manger that Jesus wished to be remembered, for he is nothing of the kind now. More than 60 years after his execution, Jesus revealed himself in vision to the apostle John as a mighty King riding into battle. (Revelation 19:11-16) It is in that role, as Ruler of God’s heavenly Kingdom, that we need to get to know Jesus today, for he is a King who will change the world.​

 

[Truth_Faith13]

may - can I ask you - is there a day of the year that you do celebrate something, if so what? - I want to try something! Thanks

 

[sojourner]

The real Jesus is often lost in Christmas celebrations. Why, there is no record that he ever even told the disciples his date of birth; nor is there any indication that his followers celebrated his birthday.
It was not Jesus’ birth but his death—and its history-making significance—that he commanded his followers to commemorate. (Luke 22:19, 20) No, it was not as a helpless baby in a manger that Jesus wished to be remembered, for he is nothing of the kind now. More than 60 years after his execution, Jesus revealed himself in vision to the apostle John as a mighty King riding into battle. (Revelation 19:11-16) It is in that role, as Ruler of God’s heavenly Kingdom, that we need to get to know Jesus today, for he is a King who will change the world.​

Celebrating the Incarnation has tremendous theological significance, for it reinforces what grace is and where it comes from. Grace is imparted to us because God became one of us -- "God with us." We are not saved by some military leader (as your post seems to indicate.) We are saved by the very presence of God with us.

Some of us know Jesus as God With Us, as our king who already has changed the world through grace.

To forget that Jesus was born among us is to forget that grace was ever given to us. I think that's shaky (and dangerous) theological ground upon which to stand.

 

[may]

may - can I ask you - is there a day of the year that you do celebrate something, if so what? - I want to try something! Thanks

tell me what you want to try Jehovahs witnesses memorialize Jesus death as he asked us to. with nothing attached to it .

 

[Truth_Faith13]

wait and see! So you celebrate easter - I dont mean the bunny side of it (that being pagan in your eyes), but you would celebrate good friday etc?

 

[may]

Celebrating the Incarnation has tremendous theological significance, for it reinforces what grace is and where it comes from. Grace is imparted to us because God became one of us -- "God with us." We are not saved by some military leader (as your post seems to indicate.) We are saved by the very presence of God with us.

Some of us know Jesus as God With Us, as our king who already has changed the world through grace.

To forget that Jesus was born among us is to forget that grace was ever given to us. I think that's shaky (and dangerous) theological ground upon which to stand.

the bible does not teach that Jesus is God , that is very shaky ground indeed. and the bible teaches that Jesus most certainly is a warrior king . stick to the bible and we cant go wrong.
And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest. revelation 6;2 we are NOW in the lords day . the book of revelation is being revealed , and Jesus is a warrior king in the heavens . thrilling times indeed . some are in darkness to the revealing . but some are enlightened indeed. make no mistake about it , this warrior king will come off victorious
(Revelation 17:14) These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him [will do so]."
(Revelation 19:11) And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness.................. Jesus is nolonger a babe in a manger , he is a mighty king .

 

[wizanda]

Crown = Diadem or Dimensions
New name of Christ, old name of God and the city (which will be born :angel2 = Is given to that person and dwells in them….
His old name was Yeshua!! = Salvation....
Don't swear and use (jesus) it means 'man beast’ or Bar-jesus means fake prophet!!!

 

[sojourner]

the bible does not teach that Jesus is God , that is very shaky ground indeed. and the bible teaches that Jesus most certainly is a warrior king . stick to the bible and we cant go wrong.
And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest. revelation 6;2 we are NOW in the lords day . the book of revelation is being revealed , and Jesus is a warrior king in the heavens . thrilling times indeed . some are in darkness to the revealing . but some are enlightened indeed. make no mistake about it , this warrior king will come off victorious
(Revelation 17:14) These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him [will do so]."
(Revelation 19:11) And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness.................. Jesus is nolonger a babe in a manger , he is a mighty king .

Then, in what way are we to celebrate Jesus at all? Why should we worship Jesus? Why should we follow Jesus, if grace is not to be found in him? If these times are, indeed, the eschaton, and Jesus' spiritual power is only now to be activated, why bother to show up 2000 years ago? Why bother to become human at all?

No, Jesus is no longer a baby, and yet, at the same time, he is the eternal Christ Child, deserving of our adoration.

 

[sojourner]

Crown = Diadem or Dimensions
New name of Christ, old name of God and the city (which will be born :angel2 = Is given to that person and dwells in them….
His old name was Yeshua!! = Salvation....
Don't swear and use (jesus) it means 'man beast’ or Bar-jesus means fake prophet!!!

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Don't spend too much time picking over the name, or you'll miss the joy of the Rose of Sharon.

 

[may]

Then, in what way are we to celebrate Jesus at all? Why should we worship Jesus? Why should we follow Jesus,quote]revelation 7;9-10 putting out trust in the NOW reigning king Jesus christ is the way to show Glory to Jehovah and Jesus christ Daniel 2;44 daniel 7;13-14 i have got my symbolic palm branch and i am making it known who to put our trust in , back when Jesus was born was back then , but NOW he is a reigning king with great arthority in the heavenly kingdom goverment . recognizing this king that Jehovah has put on the throne will lead to great blessings . Rejecting the fact that Jesus was given the kingship in 1914 inline with bible prohecy and chronology ,will mean that people are rejecting the one with the legal right . it is the only way to salvation . staying in the darkness will not lead to everlasting life .