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Define Christianity

Betho_br

Active Member
Christianity according to "Christians":

  1. Prosperity Theology
    Distorted Biblical Foundation: Malachi 3:10 ("Bring all the tithes into the storehouse... and I will pour out such a blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it"), John 10:10 ("I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly").
  2. Liberation Theology
    Distorted Biblical Foundation: Luke 4:18-19 ("The Spirit of the Lord is upon me... to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind...").
  3. Tithing Theology (Levitical Faith)
    Distorted Biblical Foundation: Hebrews 7:5-10 - The Levites, who are "of the lineage of Levi, who receive the priesthood," have the right to receive tithes, as Abraham gave to Melchizedek.
  4. Seedtime and Harvest
    Distorted Biblical Foundation: Galatians 6:7 ("For whatever a man sows, that he will also reap") and Mark 4:20 (Parable of the Sower).
  5. Positive Confession Doctrine
    Distorted Biblical Foundation: Proverbs 18:21 ("Death and life are in the power of the tongue"), Romans 4:17 ("God... calls those things which do not exist as though they did").
  6. Belief in Material Blessings as a Sign of God's Approval
    Distorted Biblical Foundation: Deuteronomy 28:1-14, where material blessings are promised for obedience to God's Law.
  7. Theology of Christian Empire
    Distorted Biblical Foundation: Matthew 28:19-20 ("Go therefore and make disciples of all nations").
  8. Using the Poor as a Pretext for Greed
    Distorted Biblical Foundation: John 12:8 ("For the poor you have with you always").
 

Betho_br

Active Member
Still missing: 1) Christianity according to what they said Jesus said... 2) Christianity according to bad a) translations b) interpretations of Paul. 3) The Christianity of misinterpretations of the Apostolic Fathers... 4) The Christianity of heresies... and many others...
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I wish that Christianity was based upon John 3:16, but sadly, it is based upon the following four doctrines:

1) Jesus is God
2) Jesus is the only way to God
3) Jesus rose from the dead
4) Jesus is going to return to earth
You know, the one thing that can be guaranteed in this thread, is that no matter what someone says, someone else will disagree with it. LOL One might even wonder why a Jew would even get involved in this discussion. Maybe I'm a masochist. :)

I try to draw as large a circle for "Christian" as I can without reducing it to a meaningless word. As a Jew, to me Christians is simply anyone who follows Jesus. However, if I have to tighten up my definition, I would say that a Christian is anyone who believes that Jesus is the Messiah who died for their sins.

I think that some of the things you mentioned are typical of mainstream, orthodox Christianity, but that there are always outlier Christian churches.

For example, the deity of Jesus has been the mainstream view since at least the second century, and Trinitarianism from the fourth century. But there are Christians who don't accept this, such as Jehovah's Witnesses.

The exclusivity of Christianity is very strong in the more conservative churches, but there are plenty of liberal Christian churches that simply don't accept this teaching.

One of the things that was trickiest for me, is that I see Christianity as a muddled sort of monotheism. However, Mormons don't fit into that definition, because they are henotheists.

For all of these reasons, I try like I said to draw my circle as large as possible, but I then tend to divide it into two groups: Christian denominations that are mainstream, orthodox sorts, and outlier churches. And please know that when I say outlier, I really don't mean it in any negative way. Popularity doesn't indicate truth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You know, the one thing that can be guaranteed in this thread, is that no matter what someone says, someone else will disagree with it. LOL One might even wonder why a Jew would even get involved in this discussion. Maybe I'm a masochist. :)
One might also wonder why a Baha'i would even get involved in this discussion. Maybe I'm a masochist. ;)
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah, he did not fulfill the

What you do with the word of Jesus ia entirely up to you
I believe as I have heard Jewish people say that there are two concepts of The Messiah: 1. The suffering servant 2: The one who resues Israel fro trouble. Jesus reflects the first concept as laid out for us in Isa 53. He will also fulfill the second concept when He returns to win the Battle of Armageddon where the whole world is fighting Israel.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The core definition could be that its adherents, while they may recognize some beliefs, doctrines and rules, rarely follow them, believe in them or even acknowledge them.

The worst thing is that they worship a man.

The second worst could be that they don't do even that "right".
I believe we worship God who is in a man and in us.

I believe we ought to worship as Jesus instructed: "in spirit and truth."
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I believe as I have heard Jewish people say that there are two concepts of The Messiah: 1. The suffering servant 2: The one who resues Israel fro trouble. Jesus reflects the first concept as laid out for us in Isa 53. He will also fulfill the second concept when He returns to win the Battle of Armageddon where the whole world is fighting Israel.

How about all the prophecies he didn't meet?
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I believe as I have heard Jewish people say that there are two concepts of The Messiah: 1. The suffering servant 2: The one who resues Israel fro trouble.
It depends what you mean. When Jewish people acknowledge that there was a time this idea was discussed, then yes, you are correct. But if you think Judaism today expects two different messiahs that you describe above, you are mistaken. I suspect you have misunderstood them, or you are talking to Messianic Jews who practice Christianity and not Judaism.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Still missing: 1) Christianity according to what they said Jesus said... 2) Christianity according to bad a) translations b) interpretations of Paul. 3) The Christianity of misinterpretations of the Apostolic Fathers... 4) The Christianity of heresies... and many others...
Point to ponder:

"Baptise" etymology:

baptize (v.)

"to administer the rite of baptism to," c. 1300, from Old French batisier "be baptized; baptize; give a name to" (11c.), from Latin baptizare, from Greek baptizein "immerse, dip in water," also figuratively, "be over one's head" (in debt, etc.), "to be soaked (in wine);" in Christian use, "baptize." This is from baptein "to dip, steep, dye, color," which is perhaps from PIE root *gwabh- (1) "to dip, sink." Christian baptism originally was a full immersion. Related: Baptized; baptizing.
also from c. 1300

Entries linking to baptize

baptise (v.)

chiefly British English spelling of baptize; for spelling, see -ize. Related: Baptised; baptising.

baptism (n.)

"initiatory sacrament of the Christian faith, consisting in immersion in or application of water by an authorized administrator," c. 1300, bapteme, from Old French batesme, bapteme "baptism" (11c., Modern French baptême), from Latin baptismus, from Greek baptismos, noun of action from baptizein (see baptize). The -s- was restored in late 14c.
The signification, qualifications, and methods of administration have been much debated. The figurative sense of "any ceremonial ablution as a sign of purification, dedication, etc." is from late 14c. Old English used fulluht in this sense (John the Baptist was Iohannes se Fulluhtere).
Phrase baptism of fire "a soldier's first experience of battle" (1857) translates French baptême de feu; the phrase originally was ecclesiastical Greek baptisma pyros and meant "the grace of the Holy Spirit as imparted through baptism;" later it was used of martyrdom, especially by burning.

baptist (n.)

c. 1200, "one who baptizes," also (with capital B-) a title of John, the forerunner of Christ; see baptize + -ist. As "member of a Protestant sect that believes in adult baptism upon profession of faith," generally by full immersion (with capital B-), attested from 1654; their opponents called them anabaptists (see Anabaptist).
christen
c. 1200, "to baptize into the Christian church," from Old English cristnian "to baptize," literally "to make Christian," from cristen "Christian" (see Christian). Especially to baptize and name as an infant, hence "give a name to at baptism" (mid-15c.) and the general sense of "g

dip
Old English dyppan "to plunge or immerse temporarily in water, to baptize by immersion," from Proto-Germanic *daupejanan...(source also of Old Norse deypa "to dip," Danish døbe "to baptize," Old Frisian depa, Dutch dopen, German taufen, Gothic...daupjan "to baptize"), related to Old English diepan "immerse, dip," and probably a causative of Proto-Germanic *deup- "deep...

Sabian
a Gnostic sect akin to the later Mandæans (if the word derives, as some linguists think it does, from Arabic ch'bae "to baptize...

Anabaptist
Modern branches (notably Mennonites and Amish) baptize only once (adults) and do not actively seek converts....

name
"word by which a person or thing is denoted," Old English nama, noma "name, reputation," from Proto-Germanic *naman- (source also of Old Saxon namo, Old Frisian nama, Old High German namo, German Name, Middle Dutch name, Dutch naam, Old Norse nafn, Gothic namo "name"), from PIE r

mane
"growth of long hair on the back of the neck and shoulders," characteristic of the horse, lion, and some other animals, Old English manu "mane of a horse," from Proto-Germanic *mano (source also of Old Norse mön, Old Frisian mana, Middle Dutch mane, Dutch manen, Old High German m

amen
Old English, from Late Latin amen, from Ecclesiastical Greek amen, from Hebrew amen "truth," used adverbially as an expression of agreement (as in Deuteronomy xxvii.26, I Kings i.36), from Semitic root a-m-n "to be trustworthy, confirm, support." Compare similar use of Modern Eng

mean
"intend, have in mind;" Middle English mēnen, from Old English mænan "intend (to do something), plan; indicate (a certain object) or convey (a certain sense) when using a word," from Proto-West Germanic *menjojanan (source also of Old Frisian mena "to signify," Old Saxon menian "

call
mid-13c., "cry out; call for, summon, invoke; ask for, demand, order; give a name to, apply by way of designation," from Old Norse kalla "cry loudly, summon in a loud voice; name, call by name," from Proto-Germanic *kall- (source also of Middle Dutch kallen "speak, say, tell," Du

addict
1530s (implied in addicted) "to devote or give up (oneself) to a habit or occupation," from Latin addictus, past participle of addicere "to deliver, award, yield; make over, sell," properly "give

Does it mean that baptising as is understood now, did not exist in "Jesus' " times?

Regards
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
That's Roman Christianity. Original Christianity predates that and had a different theology. For example, the original Christians did not observe the Trinitarian baptismal formula of the Roman Church.

The baptism of the "original Christians" involved holding the person under the water until they had a near-death experience, so yes: the baptismal formula has changed a bit.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
The baptism of the "original Christians" involved holding the person under the water until they had a near-death experience, so yes: the baptismal formula has changed a bit.
G Matthew already has the triune baptismal formula, so anyone claiming it wasn't used is going to have to tell me how he knows about pre 70AD baptismal formulae. Pre 60 possibly as the triune formula was obviously already agreed upon enough to make it into the gospel.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
The baptism of the "original Christians" involved holding the person under the water until they had a near-death experience, so yes: the baptismal formula has changed a bit.
Interesting, there's no association with a NDE for immersion in a mikveh. The immersion seems to have originated with the use of water for ritual cleanliness.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Does it mean that baptising as understand now did not exist in "Jesus' " times?
Regards
Sometimes one group will adopt a tradition of another group, but alter it slightly and giving it a different meaning than the original use. That makes it into something new. Based on something older. But still new.

First I will address the origins of baptism in Jewish immersion, then how christians reinterpreted the whole thing, and then finally answer your question of whether baptism existed in Jesus' time.

Christian baptism is inspired by Jewish immersion, but has become its own thing.

Historically among Jews (including some today), immersion (whether in a constructed mikvah, or in appropriate natural waters, such as the Jordan river) is primarily for ritual purity. This has nothing to do with sin. For example, a menstrual woman is ritually impure, but has not sinned. A mortician who cares for the bodies of the dead is ritually impure, but not only has he not sinned, but is doing a wonderful good work. Anyhow, the various forms of ritual impurity are addressed by these immersions.

A second far less common purpose for the mikveh is for repentance, although repenting does not require it, and this is not practiced in all Jewish traditions. The immersion by John the Baptist was of this sort.

And finally, in rare cases of conversion to Judaism, the final step is immersion. It symbolizes the convert's complete transformation and entry into the Jewish people. This immersion is seen as a spiritual rebirth, but it is not limited to that. Judaism does not pull religion out of its context of the entire culture of our People. Becoming a Jew is the complete assimilation of the ENTIRE culture of Israel, not just its religion.



Now, what Christians did was appropriate and reinterpret immersion. They altered the rite a little, some saying it must be done in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit, and others say it must be done in the name of Jesus. Some require full immersion, and others will simply pour or sprinkle. You get the idea.

Traditionally, it is still connected with repentance, although there are Christian groups that baptize babies that have nothing to repent from. Although few Christians would use these words, I would say that it has morphed into an entrance rite into the Christian church.

For most of the Christian world, baptism is the dividing line between who is a Christian and who is not. This is especially true for the older traditions: Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Oriental Orthodoxy, who believe baptism is salvific. The newer Protestant denominations put their own spin on it, seeing it as a metaphor for one's death to the old man, and rising to new life in Jesus, and as an external confession of faith.


Now let's deal with the question of whether baptism existed in Jesus' time. The answer depends on how loose or tight the circle of your definition is.

If you want to expand "baptism" to include Jewish immersion, then yes, baptism existed in Jesus' day. Indeed, it would mean that Jesus himself was baptised by John.

However, if you are using "baptism" the way it is commonly understood today, referring a Christian rite done the Christian way and meaning what Christians mean, then the answer is no. Christianity did not exist while Jesus was alive.

Since your post seems to stress baptism "as it is understood NOW," I think for you the answer is no.
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The baptism of the "original Christians" involved holding the person under the water until they had a near-death experience, so yes: the baptismal formula has changed a bit.
Isn't one's post in sarcasm of immersion for cleansing of the sins of the sinners, please, right??

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Define Christianity
Still missing: 1) Christianity according to what they said Jesus said... 2) Christianity according to bad a) translations b) interpretations of Paul. 3) The Christianity of misinterpretations of the Apostolic Fathers... 4) The Christianity of heresies... and many others...
Point to ponder:

"Baptise" etymology:

baptize (v.)

"to administer the rite of baptism to," c. 1300, from Old French batisier "be baptized; baptize; give a name to" (11c.), from Latin baptizare, from Greek baptizein "immerse, dip in water," also figuratively, "be over one's head" (in debt, etc.), "to be soaked (in wine);" in Christian use, "baptize." This is from baptein "to dip, steep, dye, color," which is perhaps from PIE root *gwabh- (1) "to dip, sink." Christian baptism originally was a full immersion. Related: Baptized; baptizing.
also from c. 1300

Entries linking to baptize

baptise (v.)

chiefly British English spelling of baptize; for spelling, see -ize. Related: Baptised; baptising.

baptism (n.)

"initiatory sacrament of the Christian faith, consisting in immersion in or application of water by an authorized administrator," c. 1300, bapteme, from Old French batesme, bapteme "baptism" (11c., Modern French baptême), from Latin baptismus, from Greek baptismos, noun of action from baptizein (see baptize). The -s- was restored in late 14c.
The signification, qualifications, and methods of administration have been much debated. The figurative sense of "any ceremonial ablution as a sign of purification, dedication, etc." is from late 14c. Old English used fulluht in this sense (John the Baptist was Iohannes se Fulluhtere).
Phrase baptism of fire "a soldier's first experience of battle" (1857) translates French baptême de feu; the phrase originally was ecclesiastical Greek baptisma pyros and meant "the grace of the Holy Spirit as imparted through baptism;" later it was used of martyrdom, especially by burning.

baptist (n.)

c. 1200, "one who baptizes," also (with capital B-) a title of John, the forerunner of Christ; see baptize + -ist. As "member of a Protestant sect that believes in adult baptism upon profession of faith," generally by full immersion (with capital B-), attested from 1654; their opponents called them anabaptists (see Anabaptist).
christen
c. 1200, "to baptize into the Christian church," from Old English cristnian "to baptize," literally "to make Christian," from cristen "Christian" (see Christian). Especially to baptize and name as an infant, hence "give a name to at baptism" (mid-15c.) and the general sense of "g

dip
Old English dyppan "to plunge or immerse temporarily in water, to baptize by immersion," from Proto-Germanic *daupejanan...(source also of Old Norse deypa "to dip," Danish døbe "to baptize," Old Frisian depa, Dutch dopen, German taufen, Gothic...daupjan "to baptize"), related to Old English diepan "immerse, dip," and probably a causative of Proto-Germanic *deup- "deep...

Sabian
a Gnostic sect akin to the later Mandæans (if the word derives, as some linguists think it does, from Arabic ch'bae "to baptize...



Does it mean that baptising as is understood now, did not exist in "Jesus' " times?
Some say that it, "baptism", existed with the Judaism people for cleansing of the sins of the sinners (on initiation etc); isn't it wrong, please?
When Moses went on the mount, the Jews made a "golden calf" and worshipped it "a sin of the highest order", right, please?
Were they got cleansed of this sin just by dipping/immersion in the water, please, right?
Did Moses agree just for it, please, right?
How many times Moses himself got full immersed in water for cleansing of his sins*(I ask forgiveness from Allah), please, right?


Regards
_____________________
*" According to the Talmud, just four individuals in all of history never sinned: "Benjamin, son of Jacob; Amram, father of Moses; Jesse, father of David; and Chileab, son of David".[21] By implication, the great heroes of the Bible - including Jacob, Moses, and David, mentioned in this very passage - did sin "
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Define Christianity


Some say that it, "baptism", existed with the Judaism people for cleansing of the sins of the sinners (on initiation etc); isn't it wrong, please?
I already addressed this in my long post to you (some would say too long LOL). In short, the MAJOR purpose of Jewish immersion was for ritual purification, which is not the same as forgiveness of sins.

Just a reminder. I'm not a Judaism person. I'm an observant Jew.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
John the baptist never mentioned Christ and wasn't among those who were called Christians, so it's absurd to think that he had anything to say about Christianity.
The Christian Bible (New Testament), precisely the Gospels, was taken into consideration for this argument.
 
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