Democracy dies to thunderous applause

[SomeRandom]

I wanted to perhaps discuss (without people trying to kill me, hopefully) the way the US overall culture deals with fascistic narratives and it’s own involvement. Fictional or factual as the case may be.

Please forgive me as an outsider, I can only react to what the country gives us on the world stage.


The pledge of alliance. If this is still a thing, it’s fascist to its very core. Like holy damn!!
Wtf??
I understand why it was implemented but still
Seriously help me understand this my Yank mates!! Please!! It’s beyond creepy to an outsider

Apart from that, there seems to me a very uneasy and even outright denial of fascistic tendencies in US imperialism as a whole. Like it’s implementation is somehow “beneficial” to the world.
“US World Police,” as it were
I’m not sure how to describe it, but like in very obvious tales where The US are stand ins for the oppressive government, this is seemingly ignored wholesale by the culture in question.
Star Wars is a good example.
Where I see many a Yank cheering for the rebels in the prequels even though the literal Ewoks were actual stand ins for the Viet Cong and the literal mascots for the defeat of the US military empire, in context. Like no joke that’s actually what’s Lucas was originally aiming for in the OG trilogy. You can check out the various interviews for yourselves

Yet this narrative is seemingly denied unquestionably by an American audience thinking themselves as the Luke Skywalker stand in. Much to the dismay of the creators over the years

Indeed overseas the PR campaign is one of the US military being one of the saviour class, the heroes. The one’s championed by the nations it saves.
But the rest of the world thinks of the yanks as arrogant idiots. To put it mildly. They’re disliked by the world for their arrogance and their military superiority is just due to their military budget, nothing of actual importance or actual substance. It doesn’t impress anyone, is what I’m saying. No contribution of actual monetary value is seen as a substitute for actual value for the human species as a whole

Aplogoes for anyone offended. Indeed I have family still serving in my own militia. So I have nothing but respect for the actual militia themselves

Discuss my OP as you like.
I have no qualms. Just be respectful. Please guys!!!

 

[Sirona]

Even though I find it strange that the US has military bases in my country, Germany, I am glad that they are there. Otherwise, Putin might overrun us. I spent my childhood under communism, and I can tell you that things are much better today than they used to be. I am a little concerned that certain Christian religions from America want to bring in American values under the guise of "religious freedom," but Christians are on the decline here overall, so I don't see that as a real threat. I think the biggest threat to democracy is the unregulated "freedom of speech" on the Internet, which can propagate fascist ideas that are illegal in Germany, and which encourages conspiracy theories and leads to people networking who shouldn't network.

 

[exchemist]

I wanted to perhaps discuss (without people trying to kill me, hopefully) the way the US overall culture deals with fascistic narratives and it’s own involvement. Fictional or factual as the case may be.

Please forgive me as an outsider, I can only react to what the country gives us on the world stage.


The pledge of alliance. If this is still a thing, it’s fascist to its very core. Like holy damn!!
Wtf??
I understand why it was implemented but still
Seriously help me understand this my Yank mates!! Please!! It’s beyond creepy to an outsider

Apart from that, there seems to me a very uneasy and even outright denial of fascistic tendencies in US imperialism as a whole. Like it’s implementation is somehow “beneficial” to the world.
“US World Police,” as it were
I’m not sure how to describe it, but like in very obvious tales where The US are stand ins for the oppressive government, this is seemingly ignored wholesale by the culture in question.
Star Wars is a good example.
Where I see many a Yank cheering for the rebels in the prequels even though the literal Ewoks were actual stand ins for the Viet Cong and the literal mascots for the defeat of the US military empire, in context. Like no joke that’s actually what’s Lucas was originally aiming for in the OG trilogy. You can check out the various interviews for yourselves

Yet this narrative is seemingly denied unquestionably by an American audience thinking themselves as the Luke Skywalker stand in. Much to the dismay of the creators over the years

Indeed overseas the PR campaign is one of the US military being one of the saviour class, the heroes. The one’s championed by the nations it saves.
But the rest of the world thinks of the yanks as arrogant idiots. To put it mildly. They’re disliked by the world for their arrogance and their military superiority is just due to their military budget, nothing of actual importance or actual substance. It doesn’t impress anyone, is what I’m saying. No contribution of actual monetary value is seen as a substitute for actual value for the human species as a whole

Aplogoes for anyone offended. Indeed I have family still serving in my own militia. So I have nothing but respect for the actual militia themselves

Discuss my OP as you like.
I have no qualms. Just be respectful. Please guys!!!

I try to temper my distaste for some of these things by remembering they contain echoes of how Britain used to see itself, in Edwardian times: "white man's burden" and all that. I suspect it goes with being what "1066 And All That" used to refer to as being "Top Nation".

I don't think it is necessarily fascistic. One has to remember the US is a nation comprised mostly of recent immigrants. All this pledging of allegiance, the (to a Brit, rather absurd) veneration of the flag, the standing to sing the national anthem at baseball games etc., can be seen as trying to cement the new arrivals into the nation. (Indeed, I can recall when in the early 60s, we Brits still used to stand and sing the national anthem in cinemas.). Similarly the role of world policeman, which is partly a hangover from the Cold War, during which there really was a global struggle for domination between democracy and totalitarianism. It's easy to forget that.

But I agree a lot of what was done in the name of these ideals has left a bad taste, whether it be the support of far right military juntas in S America or the idiotically stupid conflation of Saddam Hussein's Iraq with Al Qaeda terrorism (or "tourism", as GW Bush used to call it).

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I wish my grammar, my wording, and my mind could correctly frame into words telling people that it sounds like foreign policy may not be the best, but that when it comes to the US, things are just a lot more intricate than is easily understood, and not all of it is bad, even if the two-party system makes things really entertaining.

If people interpret what I said as "fascism", that's okay, too.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

There's more I'd like to add, too:

US politics and US law is so intricate, I feel like you need a college level education on it to understand it.

Even myself, having lived in the US all my life, I feel like I have a High School grade education on the subject.

And I feel it at times, takes years, to even get an elementary level education on US politics and its intricacies.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Also, if the title was quoting Star Wars, that's not what Padme said - I don't think. She said,

"So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause."

I think I actually misquoted it myself once. Then another member did too. Or maybe they misquoted it first, then I misquoted. I don't remember.

Is it the Mandela Effect in action?

 

[SomeRandom]

Also, if the title was quoting Star Wars, that's not what Padme said - I don't think. She said,

"So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause."

I think I actually misquoted it myself once. Then another member did too. Or maybe they misquoted it first, then I misquoted. I don't remember.

Is it the Mandela Effect in action?

My apologies
It’s been a while since I’ve seen the film. That’s all I really remember of the scene in question. In fairness I also have to remember a bunch of foreign language films as well that I enjoyed (since I happen to like films from my youth such as Hum Kisise Kim Nadeem roughly translated as We are not less than anything.)
So film catch phrases are a bit hard for me sometimes

 

[Brickjectivity]

I do not think of myself as Luke Skywalker, and I don't think of the Ewoks as Vietcong. Luke represented youth. He appeared in 1977, a very different time for many Americans. I'm not going to say we were all simple, but a lot more were like Luke. Many people did relate to Luke then but not so many today. Solo is more relatable and is equally as important as Luke. I'm not a thief or a jaded traveler, but I can relate to his skeptic view of things and his disbelief. He is more like today's America. Leia is the idealist, and she is always trying to die for a cause. She and Luke both wear white, but Leia is a saint while Luke is just inexperienced. Solo is a coward but still has some feelings.

The Ewoks are someone's projection of innocence onto uneducated groups. This was popular when Return of the Jedi appeared in theaters.

The pledge of alliance. If this is still a thing, it’s fascist to its very core. Like holy damn!!

We call it the pledge of allegiance. It is a pledge to the republic. For a while now it has been something recited in schools, but there is no law requiring anyone to take the pledge. It became increasingly common after the civil war of the mid 19th century. There remains even today bad feeling about some of the atrocities of that war, and even without the atrocious there were many deaths. In some battles soldiers lined up and marched into canon fire and died by the tens of thousands, and they were being killed by their own countrymen. This created a strong reason for people after the war to embrace national unity. People stopped saying "I am from Virginia" or "I am from Vermont" and started to say "I am from the USA." Far from fascist it is something else in my opinion, and nobody is required by law to say it. Could it become fascist? I suppose, but we don't think of it as a pledge to any person. I think of fascism as a pledge to a strong individual. This pledge undermines allegiance to individuals.

One thing debatable about the pledge is the addition of 'One nation under God' in 1954, however over time the understanding of God changes in America. This seems like a strange move today, however in 1954 it is another echo from the civil war. Its also a reaction to what has happened in WWII. It seems to me that a lot of religious groups have adapted the word 'God' to describe something in their own religions, or if they haven't then other people have done it for them. Also 'One nation under God' can, in a historical context, mean simply whatever you think God should mean. Perhaps it is an edge case of establishment of religion, but it is not particularly fascist to me.

Immigrants who want to naturalize must take the Oath of Allegiance which has different wording. It also mentions 'God'.

 

[Left Coast]

I wanted to perhaps discuss (without people trying to kill me, hopefully) the way the US overall culture deals with fascistic narratives and it’s own involvement. Fictional or factual as the case may be.

Please forgive me as an outsider, I can only react to what the country gives us on the world stage.


The pledge of alliance. If this is still a thing, it’s fascist to its very core. Like holy damn!!
Wtf??
I understand why it was implemented but still
Seriously help me understand this my Yank mates!! Please!! It’s beyond creepy to an outsider

Apart from that, there seems to me a very uneasy and even outright denial of fascistic tendencies in US imperialism as a whole. Like it’s implementation is somehow “beneficial” to the world.
“US World Police,” as it were
I’m not sure how to describe it, but like in very obvious tales where The US are stand ins for the oppressive government, this is seemingly ignored wholesale by the culture in question.
Star Wars is a good example.
Where I see many a Yank cheering for the rebels in the prequels even though the literal Ewoks were actual stand ins for the Viet Cong and the literal mascots for the defeat of the US military empire, in context. Like no joke that’s actually what’s Lucas was originally aiming for in the OG trilogy. You can check out the various interviews for yourselves

Yet this narrative is seemingly denied unquestionably by an American audience thinking themselves as the Luke Skywalker stand in. Much to the dismay of the creators over the years

Indeed overseas the PR campaign is one of the US military being one of the saviour class, the heroes. The one’s championed by the nations it saves.
But the rest of the world thinks of the yanks as arrogant idiots. To put it mildly. They’re disliked by the world for their arrogance and their military superiority is just due to their military budget, nothing of actual importance or actual substance. It doesn’t impress anyone, is what I’m saying. No contribution of actual monetary value is seen as a substitute for actual value for the human species as a whole

Aplogoes for anyone offended. Indeed I have family still serving in my own militia. So I have nothing but respect for the actual militia themselves

Discuss my OP as you like.
I have no qualms. Just be respectful. Please guys!!!

There is a healthy kind of patriotism that is not fascist, IMHO. Aside from the "under God" phrase that was added in the 50s, I see nothing inherently immoral about the Pledge.

Now, has America done some horribly ****** things in other countries? Yeah. Have we had some crappy leaders? Also yeah. Is our military bloated? Triple yeah. But there are lots of admirable, virtuous things about our country too. And the Pledge and other patriotic symbols and gestures remind us to cling to those higher ideals and virtues that make us a great country. They're the "Northern Star" that are meant to guide us and our leaders. Perhaps "liberty and justice for all" is pollyanna but I find it noble.

 

[Stevicus]

I wanted to perhaps discuss (without people trying to kill me, hopefully) the way the US overall culture deals with fascistic narratives and it’s own involvement. Fictional or factual as the case may be.

Please forgive me as an outsider, I can only react to what the country gives us on the world stage.


The pledge of alliance. If this is still a thing, it’s fascist to its very core. Like holy damn!!
Wtf??
I understand why it was implemented but still
Seriously help me understand this my Yank mates!! Please!! It’s beyond creepy to an outsider

Apart from that, there seems to me a very uneasy and even outright denial of fascistic tendencies in US imperialism as a whole. Like it’s implementation is somehow “beneficial” to the world.
“US World Police,” as it were
I’m not sure how to describe it, but like in very obvious tales where The US are stand ins for the oppressive government, this is seemingly ignored wholesale by the culture in question.
Star Wars is a good example.
Where I see many a Yank cheering for the rebels in the prequels even though the literal Ewoks were actual stand ins for the Viet Cong and the literal mascots for the defeat of the US military empire, in context. Like no joke that’s actually what’s Lucas was originally aiming for in the OG trilogy. You can check out the various interviews for yourselves

Yet this narrative is seemingly denied unquestionably by an American audience thinking themselves as the Luke Skywalker stand in. Much to the dismay of the creators over the years

Indeed overseas the PR campaign is one of the US military being one of the saviour class, the heroes. The one’s championed by the nations it saves.
But the rest of the world thinks of the yanks as arrogant idiots. To put it mildly. They’re disliked by the world for their arrogance and their military superiority is just due to their military budget, nothing of actual importance or actual substance. It doesn’t impress anyone, is what I’m saying. No contribution of actual monetary value is seen as a substitute for actual value for the human species as a whole

Aplogoes for anyone offended. Indeed I have family still serving in my own militia. So I have nothing but respect for the actual militia themselves

Discuss my OP as you like.
I have no qualms. Just be respectful. Please guys!!!

Originally, I think a lot of it had to do with trying to shift US public opinion away from detached neutrality (sometimes called "isolationism") and make us more of an active player in world geopolitics. Americans had to be goaded into thinking that America's role in the world was indispensable and vital to world freedom. An effective way of doing this has been to shamelessly manipulate and appeal to Americans' vanity, ego, and patriotism to the point where any choice (other than aggressive militarism) would seem dishonorable or despicable.

I don't think I've ever heard that the Ewoks were originally intended to be the Viet Cong. Of course, they had a big celebration at the end of Return of the Jedi when the Death Star was destroyed, so that was their "applause." The movie came out in 1983, around the same time that Reagan referred to the Soviet Union as the "Evil Empire," though I don't recall hearing George Lucas coming forth and contradicting that at the time. (If anything, by that time, Hollywood had grown more pro-Reagan and pro-US militarism than they ever were.)

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The pledge of alliance. If this is still a thing, it’s fascist to its very core.

To the core? Not quite; many nations have oaths of fidelity to the nation and it's people. What's fascist is the repetition of this oath beyond what is "required" for citizenship, for example children saying it every morning, or some "patriotic" tool leading in The Pledge before a government meeting or gathering. Very fascist and cultish. And while it's not illegal to refrain from saying the Pledge of Allegiance (or showing any manner of respect for it or the National Anthem), one certainly suffers on a social level if they don't bleat along with the rest of the herd.

[T]here seems to me a very uneasy and even outright denial of fascistic tendencies in US imperialism as a whole. Like it’s implementation is somehow “beneficial” to the world.
“US World Police,” as it were

Supremacy of the Military. Point #4 on the 14 Points of Fascism developed by Umberto Eco, Dr. Lawrence Britt, and other Sociologists. America startlingly displays many - if not all - of these points, and yet somehow we continue on as though it's business as usual. From the over-militarization of our police to the over-policing of our military, we spend more on a "defense budget" despite hardly ever being under actual threat of war. We have the most military bases stationed in other countries, and for what purpose? I've lived on a couple of them; they're not truly providing security to the nation they're in, are generally reviled, and serve as more Imperialistic tourist locations. It's ridiculous.

And meanwhile, while we spend upward of $800 billion on this "Defense Budget" that's so damn necessary, the American people starve and suffer for it. Yet are somehow grateful to do so.

And beyond these two points, the Hyper-Nationalism and Supremacy of the Military, America is rife with other Fascist red flags. Disdain for Human Rights, Corporations being protected, Disdain for Intellectualism and The Arts. The entwinement of Religion and Government. Obsession with Crime & Punishment. Cronyism. There is strong argument and example that every single one of the 14 Points, from various Sociologists (as their lists differ slightly), America hits every single point.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Where I see many a Yank cheering for the rebels in the prequels even though the literal Ewoks were actual stand ins for the Viet Cong and the literal mascots for the defeat of the US military empire, in context. Like no joke that’s actually what’s Lucas was originally aiming for in the OG trilogy. You can check out the various interviews for yourselves

Yet this narrative is seemingly denied unquestionably by an American audience thinking themselves as the Luke Skywalker stand in. Much to the dismay of the creators over the years

I'll leave the US questions to the US folk.
But whilst what you have above is largely accurate (I've heard Lucas talk about this too) I think you're overstating it a little.

Lucas was absolutely against US intervention in Vietnam, and saw the Vietcong as freedom fighters in simple terms. He was also researching and working on more directly anti-war films immediately before Star Wars (Apocalypse Now) and so had a strong frame of research/reference in mind.
But the Ewoks weren't solely supposed to represent the Vietcong, but be an analogy for many smaller, technologically inferior forces fighting against organised, technologically superior interlopers. The name 'Ewok' was inspired by the Miwok Native American tribe, resident to the forests where the battle scenes were filmed.
And he's likened the stormtroopers to the Nazis more than once.

So sure, the Vietcong were a key frame of reference he used when developing the Ewok, but it's probably a bridge too far to suggest the US should be seeing themselves 'literally' in the Empire. Least as far as I am aware.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Oh, at this point I don't think it's too far to say that America is the Empire. Whether or not Americans are "loyal citizens" or agents of Rebellion is another matter.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Here's an opinion from an American who lost respect for the country and has no allegiance to it. Spoiler: It'll be a bit of an unpatriotic rant, which many Americans who love their country might not like to read.

Allegiance is two-way or neither way with me, and by the time I left America, it's government was working against my interests as well as those of much of the American people. It began in grade school with the phrase "one nation under God." What? That doesn't include me. I'm not one of them.

Then during my professional career came more disloyalty as that government gave control of me and my patients to HMOs that simply stole money for no value in return, attempted to turn physicians into advocates for the insurer over the patient, and pressured physicians to make medical decisions that increased risk to both the patient and the doctor in support of the insurer's bottom line. I had just two words for that.

Later, an unfunded mandate to treat all unstable patients in an ER (EMTALA for those who care to look further) with the government offering no compensation to physicians and hospitals for assuming ITS responsibility and no protection from liability while treating those patients. Same two words.

Then an unfunded mandate to acquire electronic medical records capability to continue to participate in Medicare, a must for an internist like me who treated mostly mature adults. This would have cost about $40,000 for the software, staff training, and the transfer of existing paper records to digital records. The software was $25,000. The government had a responsibility to develop the software and provide it to everybody it demanded use it - a tiny expense for a government, but a huge windfall for those selling this software if it was required that it be purchased. I had the same two words for "my" country then as well. I think it's clear where this is going by now.

I also heard this in an interview of former American President George H. W. Bush: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God." Same two words for you, George, Sr.

Not to be outdone by his father, I attended a protest in 2002 regarding the impending Iraqi invasion. We were sequestered from news cameras in Orwellian "free speech zones" The same two words again. This country is not my friend. I am not welcome here. My voice is being silenced, yet I'm expected to pay taxes (didn't they fight a revolution over that?). And the war was waged on a lie from the government to its people.

Allegiance to that? No thank you. Here's how my version of the Pledge ends now: Gun nation, plunder, fraud, withered liberty, adjust us for a fall.

Just to sweeten the pot, in my final years in the States, I was dropped from registered voter lists twice (2002 and 2004) and turned away on election day by this nation that asks me to pledge allegiance to it. My voice was being silenced again. Two words. I never tried to vote again (2006 and 2008) once I realized what had been done (the first time might have been a clerical error, but not twice), which would have to be absentee now, but why bother?

And so, in 2009, I closed my office and left, taking my dollars elsewhere. It looks like I got to vote at last - with my feet and my wallet. And I found a better value than American life, especially for a retiree or one who can earn a good living as an expat, although this is taking a toll on some locals: Mexico City becomes 'work from home' haven for US expats, as locals are getting priced out | CNN Business

Good luck to the good people in America who are not free to expatriate because of family, health, or financial reasons, or because they don't know what the alternatives are or aren't willing to leave the only life they've ever known for the unknown even though dissatisfied with the direction. They'll have to deal with that element that intends to exploit them from within as they see fit, the element that views them as capital like farm animals and business machines, that feels that they don't deserve a living wage for much fulltime honest work, that their social safety net needs dismantling, their unions crushed, their natural resources despoiled and their workplaces unsafe; that their votes shouldn't count, that their infrastructure can rot, that extreme weather is fine if the alternative is dwindling corporate profits, that they should pay as much for insulin as they have, that they should bear a disproportionate part of government expenditures, most of which should go to them.

Naturally, I would advise any young American that can to get off that train and become a Canadian or Western European or a Kiwi now to tap into that cradle-to-grave socialist democratic life that gets such high satisfaction ratings. Why pay taxes to American Social Security when the Republicans have it in their crosshairs and people keep electing them? :

 

[Revoltingest]

As always, I offer this advice to people
who believe democracy is dead....
Don't waste your time voting.

 

[icehorse]

Time for me to jump back on my recurring soapbox:

The US is (or is very soon to be) and oligarchy or kleptocracy. That poisons EVERYTHING, including making our foreign policy even more dubious.

The one thing we can and should ALL be working together to fix is this kleptocracy we've allowed to form.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Ewoks are someone's projection of innocence onto uneducated groups. This was popular when Return of the Jedi appeared in theaters.

The Ewoks are partially based on the Viet Cong.
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-ewoks-creation-inspiration-george-lucas/

Lucas took inspiration from Viet Cong guerrillas. He took note of the guerillas when they fought American soldiers during the Vietnam War and mirrored their actions with Ewoks and their attack on the Empire. Ewoks had guerrilla warfare techniques in Return of the Jedi with fighting styles relying on spears, knives, battering rams, and catapults.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There is a healthy kind of patriotism that is not fascist, IMHO. Aside from the "under God" phrase that was added in the 50s, I see nothing inherently immoral about the Pledge.

It encourages blind and unquestioned loyalty and obedience.

 

[Left Coast]

It encourages blind and unquestioned loyalty and obedience.

I don't think so. If anything it encourages loyalty to ideals that are greater than any one politician or party or administration. Liberty, justice, and republicanism (small r) are good things.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't think so. If anything it encourages loyalty to ideals that are greater than any one politician or party or administration. Liberty, justice, and republicanism (small r) are good things.

You don't instill those by conducting a massive scale ceremony that is rote memorized and performed. And if we look at our elections there does not seem to be a strong correlation to chanting the pledge and honoring Constitutional values. Or, if anything, we see those who keep on saying after school largely being the ones who harp on about life and liberty the most and loudest but are actively against those things for certain parts of the population.