Democracy dies to thunderous applause

[Shadow Wolf]

You do cynical and I'll keep doing love for my country that was founded on biblical principles.

Biblical Principles are I am thy lord thy god, thou shalt have no other gods before me and killing apostates. American Values are freedom to worship whatever you want.
Biblical values are no sex before marriage. American values are personal liberties that allow for sex before marriage.
Biblical values are honoring and glorifying god in all things. That's nowhere as an American value.
Ultimately American Liberty is not compatible with the obedience and submissiveness that the Christian god expects of Christians. American Liberty allows for the practice of Christianity. Christianity does not allow for the freedoms to practice American Liberty.

 

[jbg]

The flag represents an ideal. We pledge to uphold that ideal that our country was founded on, namely that all men are created equal and given the same rights by God.

If you don't stand for something...you'll fall for anything.

There are many people who don't want to understand that. They want to denigrate their country. If they tried that denigration almost anywhere else they'd be brutalized or killed.

I'll tell you one thing. There are reasons I am here, and not in Slovakia (then Hungary), Poland or Ukraine (both then Czarist Russia).

 

[jbg]

Ultimately American Liberty is not compatible with the obedience and submissiveness that the Christian god expects of Christians. American Liberty allows for the practice of Christianity. Christianity does not allow for the freedoms to practice American Liberty.

I'm Jewish and I practice American liberty, which means acting with restraint, self-control and in accordance with the rule of law just fine.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Biblical Principles are I am thy lord thy god, thou shalt have no other gods before me and killing apostates. American Values are freedom to worship whatever you want.
Biblical values are no sex before marriage. American values are personal liberties that allow for sex before marriage.
Biblical values are honoring and glorifying god in all things. That's nowhere as an American value.
Ultimately American Liberty is not compatible with the obedience and submissiveness that the Christian god expects of Christians. American Liberty allows for the practice of Christianity. Christianity does not allow for the freedoms to practice American Liberty.

There's nothing Christian about killing apostates. Good grief, what a ridiculous claim!
And yes the founders believed in Christian principles and based thier laws on that.
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity.”
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God.... What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
John Adams

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There's nothing Christian about killing apostates. Good grief, what a ridiculous claim!

It's commanded in your Bible. Worshiping other gods, especially once you have known Jehovah, is very strictly prohibited.

And yes the founders believed in Christian principles and based thier laws on that.

Many 9f them didn't. Thomas Paine, for example, wrote an entire book criticizing Christianity, including things about how it's good for making fanatics and atheists.
Thomas Jefferson declared himself the intellectual adversary of the clergy. James Madison was the author of the separation of Church and State. Benjamin Franklin said of Christianity that any religion that shocks the mind of a child cannot be true. And, of course, "Washington was a Deist."

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God.... What a Utopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
John Adams

People would also kill their own daughter if she's not a virgin on her wedding night. People would be forced to honor abusive parents. We would have to love those who want to destroy us. We'd also still have slavery, because the God of Abraham is just fine and dandy with that one and does allow and promote it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm Jewish and I practice American liberty, which means acting with restraint, self-control and in accordance with the rule of law just fine.

As I said, American Liberty allows for that. But Jewish Law does not allow for many things we do. Simply put, under Jewish Law there is no possibility of American Liberty.

 

[crossfire]

Please note the two Fasces on either side of the speaker podium in the Congressional House Rostrum:
House Rostrum | US House of Representatives: History, Art & Archives

 

[Wildswanderer]

It's commanded in your Bible. Worshiping other gods, especially once you have known Jehovah, is very strictly prohibited.

No it isn't.

 

[Wildswanderer]

People would also kill their own daughter if she's not a virgin on her wedding night. People would be forced to honor abusive parents. We would have to love those who want to destroy us. We'd also still have slavery, because the God of Abraham is just fine and dandy with that one and does allow and promote it.

Nope. Read the New testament. Read what commands Jesus gave. The law is not in effect and it was never binding for non Jewish people. In fact the law was given to show it was impossible to please God by simply keeping rules. No Christian is under the old law.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nope. Read the New testament. Read what commands Jesus gave. The law is not in effect and it was never binding for non Jewish people. In fact the law was given to show it was impossible to please God by simply keeping rules. No Christian is under the old law.

Jesus said he did not come to do away or change with the Laws or Prophets, he's still very demanding we must do as he commands or it's eternal damnation for us, and Paul does reinforce many of the harshest aspects of the OT.
But fortunately this America where women were given the right to vote and lead. Paul still says he won't suffer a woman to usurp authority over a man and she's to be totally submissive to to her husband and she is to blame for sin.

No it isn't.

You obviously haven't read the Bible then.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Jesus said he did not come to do away or change with the Laws or Prophets, he's still very demanding we must do as he commands or it's eternal damnation for us, and Paul does reinforce many of the harshest aspects of the OT.
But fortunately this America where women were given the right to vote and lead. Paul still says he won't suffer a woman to usurp authority over a man and she's to be totally submissive to to her husband and she is to blame for sin.

You obviously haven't read the Bible then.

There's no biblical command in effect about killing apostates.
You don't understand what Jesus said. He fulfilled the law so it's not in effect anymore. He said it would not pass until all of was fulfilled and that happened with his death and resurrection.

We are under grace and love. Biblical principles like treating others like you want to be treated and loving your enemies is what makes democracy work.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We are under grace and love. Biblical principles like treating others like you want to be treated and loving your enemies is what makes democracy work.

Loving your enemy is something no state can do. And it shouldn't. Like, what if England and America did that love and forgiveness Christian thing when it came to the Nazis? No, instead those two nations fought for the worldly value of democracy and refused to turn the other cheek when Hitler started slapping the rest of Europe.
And with war, again we see our values our superior to the God of Abraham. We haven't done away with war, but we concepts such as civilians, collateral damage, and rules of war. The Word's of Abraham's God still have horrific demands to kill everyone except the young women, who are to be kept as part of the plunder of conquest/sex slaves.
Updating things as we learn better is another aspect of our values that are sharply in contrast to this eternal and unchanging god.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The Word's of Abraham's God still have horrific demands to kill everyone except the young women, who are to be kept as part of the plunder of conquest/sex slaves.

Hogwash.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Loving your enemy is something no state can do. And it shouldn't. Like, what if England and America did that love and forgiveness Christian thing when it came to the Nazis? No, instead those two nations fought for the worldly value of democracy and refused to turn the other cheek when Hitler started slapping the rest of Europe.

Which was the Christian thing to do to rescue people from a great evil.

 

[metis]

Jesus said he did not come to do away or change with the Laws or Prophets, he's still very demanding we must do as he commands or it's eternal damnation for us, and Paul does reinforce many of the harshest aspects of the OT.

The general gist of what Jesus taught was to take the Law [613 Commandments] and narrow it down to 2 Laws: love of God and love of all humans.
Matthew 22[35] And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him.
[36] "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

His point seems to be that if one follows those two precisely, then the purpose of Torah is complete. This is not that different from Hillel the Elder's commentary when asked what was the gist of Torah? Saying that he could stand on one leg and answer it, his response was "Do not do unto others that which you would not want done unto yourself. All the rest is commentary; now go and study." However, Jesus did take it further than Hillel.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The general gist of what Jesus taught was to take the Law [613 Commandments] and narrow it down to 2 Laws: love of God and love of all humans.

A god that calls many of us abominations.

 

[metis]

A god that calls many of us abominations.

Probably like yourself, I don't believe everything I read, and this includes what's in the Bible or any other religious or secular texts.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Probably like yourself, I don't believe everything I read, and this includes what's in the Bible or any other religious or secular texts.

Yeah, but those are recorded as that god's thoughts and sentiments.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Which was the Christian thing to do to rescue people from a great evil.

That's not a commandment, and to the contrary submission to the Roman Empire (who, among others, were even repressing, enslaving and butchering Jesus' own people) with the order to render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's along with Romans 13, which states Christians must obey their Earthly rulers because they have been instated by god.

 

[Wildswanderer]

That's not a commandment,

To rescue people from evil?
It's a common prayer in scripture

"Rescue me, O my God, out of the hand of the wicked,
Out of the grasp of the wrongdoer and ruthless man,"
Psalm 71


Jeremiah 15:21

“So I will deliver you from the hand of the wicked,
And I will redeem you from the grasp of the violent.”

God historically used people to rescue others from evil regimes quite often.