Democracy dies to thunderous applause

[Left Coast]

You don't instill those by conducting a massive scale ceremony that is rote memorized and performed.

All nations have their rituals. I suppose we could argue about their relative efficacy. It's intention is to be a reminder, not a sole and exhaustive instructor.

And if we look at our elections there does not seem to be a strong correlation to chanting the pledge and honoring Constitutional values. Or, if anything, we see those who keep on saying after school largely being the ones who harp on about life and liberty the most and loudest but are actively against those things for certain parts of the population.

It's true that patriotism has been perverted into nationalism by quite a few people on the right. But I don't think that's a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Stevicus]

A never-ending battle for Truth, Justice, and the American Way

 

[Shadow Wolf]

All nations have their rituals. I suppose we could argue about their relative efficacy. It's intention is to be a reminder, not a sole and exhaustive instructor.

Not all nations do it so frequently. They don't do their national anthem as often either.

It's true that patriotism has been perverted into nationalism by quite a few people on the right. But I don't think that's a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We don't have to have constant reminders. It's like Christians and their "in God we trust" that they like seeing. Is their faith so weak they need constant reminders? Do patriots also have some issue that has them requiring regular and frequent reminders?

 

[Left Coast]

Not all nations do it so frequently. They don't do their national anthem as often either.

We don't have to have constant reminders. It's like Christians and their "in God we trust" that they like seeing. Is their faith so weak they need constant reminders? Do patriots also have some issue that has them requiring regular and frequent reminders?

I think it's a matter of personal preference how much is too much. Some people go over the top with it, no doubt. But I appreciate a healthy dose. Call me a wicked patriot.

Honestly I can't remember the last time I heard the Pledge. At a baseball game last year?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Honestly I can't remember the last time I heard the Pledge. At a baseball game last year?

I've not heard the Pledge at any, but I've heard the Star Spangled Banner at them all.

 

[Brickjectivity]

The Ewoks are partially based on the Viet Cong.
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-ewoks-creation-inspiration-george-lucas/

Neat. They seemed to me to reflect native humans isolated from technology such as jungle people, American Indians in films, aborigines and desert dwellers. Their chants, decorations and their tribal arrangements reflected this strongly, but I doubt it was intended to mock. The Ewoks were comically superstitious and vicious but also righteous.

 

[wellwisher]

The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all,"

This is a useful reminder to the ideals that America stands for. America was a unique experiment in history built on the premise of a country based on free citizens, apart from monarchy control. Under God meant a higher standard than that of any man and any monarchies. God is an abstraction for the highest ideal.

The repetition is useful because some people are trying to confuse what is America. For example, the political Left keeps harping about the loss of Democracy in America, when the pledge tells us we are a Republic not a Democracy. They lie based on misinformation which the pledge can counter. The pledge is like bug spray.

Since this allegiance is to the flag, if you look at the colors of the flag, they are red, white and blue. Red is color of the Republican Party, white is connected to Religion, blue is connected to Democrat. In terms of surface area, red and white influence should have more input than blue, with white or religion intertwined with bot parties as America evolves.

The flag shows the secret recipe for success as well as for it potential failure. The failure we see today is there is to much blue influence; back to monarchy, and this is causing the decline. The national debt is a world wide disgrace. It is like too much salt in the soup; promoting over bearing government and too much dependency. Instead it should be about rugged individualism with the full freedom to speak and worship God as you see fit.

The tide is turning with the fascist in blue, have lost one of their main propaganda and censorship tools. This will allow the stars to stand out again, via less blue influence.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Under God meant a higher standard than that of any man and any monarchies. God is an abstraction for the highest ideal.

Now now, be honest. That bit was added to the Pledge in the 1950's to ideologically combat "godless Communism". It was not in the pledge of allegiance originally, and frankly has no place in it. It's not an "abstract ideal", it's not a "metaphor". It is very clearly the outer fringes of a Theocracy, and ought be scrapped. If you want to praise god or higher ideals, keep it in Church.

Oh, and there are even more Red Flags in that entire post... Well, that's going to have to wait until I'm off work. Drafting that for now.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Neat. They seemed to me to reflect native humans isolated from technology such as jungle people, American Indians in films, aborigines and desert dwellers. Their chants, decorations and their tribal arrangements reflected this strongly, but I doubt it was intended to mock. The Ewoks were comically superstitious and vicious but also righteous.

Yeah, they were supposed to be technologically isolated. The whole thing was going to originally be on Kashyyk and involve the Wookies but Lucas felt they were too technically advanced for what he wanted.

 

[SomeRandom]

Neat. They seemed to me to reflect native humans isolated from technology such as jungle people, American Indians in films, aborigines and desert dwellers. Their chants, decorations and their tribal arrangements reflected this strongly, but I doubt it was intended to mock. The Ewoks were comically superstitious and vicious but also righteous.

No doubt the Ewoks can easily stand in symbolically for many isolated communities.

I remember seeing an old interview years ago where a (then young looking) Lucas was asked about the Ewoks. He said something to the effect of how he thought the Viet Cong were pretty ****** for defeating the much more technological advanced (as far as weapons are concerned) US army during the war. So why not copy their battle tactics. I mean worked for them, didn’t it? Lol

 

[Watchmen]

I try to temper my distaste for some of these things by remembering they contain echoes of how Britain used to see itself, in Edwardian times: "white man's burden" and all that. I suspect it goes with being what "1066 And All That" used to refer to as being "Top Nation".

I don't think it is necessarily fascistic. One has to remember the US is a nation comprised mostly of recent immigrants. All this pledging of allegiance, the (to a Brit, rather absurd) veneration of the flag, the standing to sing the national anthem at baseball games etc., can be seen as trying to cement the new arrivals into the nation. (Indeed, I can recall when in the early 60s, we Brits still used to stand and sing the national anthem in cinemas.). Similarly the role of world policeman, which is partly a hangover from the Cold War, during which there really was a global struggle for domination between democracy and totalitarianism. It's easy to forget that.

But I agree a lot of what was done in the name of these ideals has left a bad taste, whether it be the support of far right military juntas in S America or the idiotically stupid conflation of Saddam Hussein's Iraq with Al Qaeda terrorism (or "tourism", as GW Bush used to call it).

Methinks you don’t know what fascist means.

 

[wellwisher]

Now now, be honest. That bit was added to the Pledge in the 1950's to ideologically combat "godless Communism". It was not in the pledge of allegiance originally, and frankly has no place in it. It's not an "abstract ideal", it's not a "metaphor". It is very clearly the outer fringes of a Theocracy, and ought be scrapped. If you want to praise god or higher ideals, keep it in Church.

Oh, and there are even more Red Flags in that entire post... Well, that's going to have to wait until I'm off work. Drafting that for now.

You have it wrong. The 1st Amendment prevents government from establishing any religion; form a theocracy. However, it allows freedom of religion for its citizens, though freedom of speech, freedom to gather and the freedom of the press; create any form of literature including religious so people can learn and study.

What they envisioned were free people supported by public servants, with the public servants not having the power to control the people by creating a theocracy, but who needed act as their servants. A good servant does not tell you what to do or interfere in your life. but rather is there is to be helpful, period. A bad servant cheats the owner and becomes overbearing, to where they think they own the farm.

The flag is red white and blue. White is freedom of religion; good is white. Blue and Red are the two opposite political parties with white Stars or Stripes, meaning both parties are based on secular principles that are not far from the idea of freedom of religion; balances of both needs.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Okay, revisiting this field of red. First to re-address the "under god" bit.

You have it wrong.

No, I don't. "Under god" was added in 1954 during the Cold War, following pressure from various religious groups and organizations, for the express purpose of setting a distinction between America as "God Fearing" and "Heavenly Blessed" to the Soviet Union's "Godless" Atheist state.

I am well aware of what the 1st Amendment ensures. That doesn't change what is and has been happening to this nation since the 50's, nor does it hide or nullify the many pushes towards theocracy that we've seen, with Biblical reference and "personal (Christian) faith" being used as justification for many laws and stripping of rights and protections of others. Ironically (as it's so often screamed by the Christiain Right) that just makes these motions unconstitutional.

The flag is red white and blue. White is freedom of religion; good is white. Blue and Red are the two opposite political parties

Yes, I saw you claim this yesterday. It's absolute nonsense, and not at all true. We'll get there.

Also,

good is white

Lowkey racist.

America was a unique experiment in history built on the premise of a country based on free citizens, apart from monarchy control.

Yeah, that is not unique to history at all. That people believe that is clear testament to how woefully uneducated a startling majority of Americans are. For the easy ones, the Greek states (Athína, Kórinthos, Ródos, etc) were democratically supported. The Roman Republic (509–27 BCE) operated on democratically elected magistrates, and even in the Roman Empire (27 BCE - 476 CE) saw implementation of the Senate. Both forms of government are the foundation on which the American government was built, so in fact we are a facsimile of what has been done, not a "unique experiment".

The repetition is useful because some people are trying to confuse what is America.

Gee, I wonder who. The repetition of an oath or pledge is fascist. It is not beautiful, it is not inspiring. It is to keep heads down and noses to the grindstone. Time and time again, pledge your allegiance even when the nation has failed you, or be branded a treasonous traitor. Point 1 of Dr. Lawrence Britt's list, and Point 4 of Umberto Eco's.

For example, the political Left keeps harping about the loss of Democracy in America, when the pledge tells us we are a Republic not a Democracy. They lie based on misinformation which the pledge can counter. The pledge is like bug spray.

Absolute twaddle-speak. The Pledge of Allegiance is not a foundational piece of American Scripture. It was a poem written in the Civil War by George Thatcher Balch, and wasn't even adopted by Congress as a national "tradition" until 1942. It does not structure our government any more than it ensures "Liberty and Justice for all"; the American Government is factually a Democratically Representative Republic. "We the People" (another favorite tagline of the Playtriotic Right) democratically elect our representatives and governing bodies (or have you missed every gubernational and presidential election?) who then serve on the republic bodies of the Congress, Senate, House of Representatives, and Office of the White House. Democracy is essential to a Republic.

if you look at the colors of the flag, they are red, white and blue. Red is color of the Republican Party, white is connected to Religion, blue is connected to Democrat. In terms of surface area, red and white influence should have more input than blue, with white or religion intertwined with bot parties as America evolves. The flag shows the secret recipe for success as well as for it potential failure. The failure we see today is there is to much blue influence; back to monarchy, and this is causing the decline.

Again, this is absolute nonsense. Political parties have shifted course (and even famously swapped places) over the course of the nation, and the Great American Hero George Washington was completely against the notion of political parties. The flag is not a blueprint to how the Republican Party should always be ahead of the Democratic Party (both parties having begun their current ideology and political stance in the 1940's with the New Deal).

And as well, it is hilariously hypocritical how you throw back that the 1st Amendment "prevents the Government" from establishing any religion, then go on here to uphold poetically fascist notions of "Under God" (which god?) and Faith baked right into the Blueprint of the Flag. That Faith should be equally powerful as the Republican Party (circa 1940), with Democrat (circa 1940) cowering in the corner.

I'll give you three legitimate sources that all repeat the exact same thing. Including the official names of the colors; "Old Glory Red" represents hardiness and valor. White represents innocence and purity. "Old Glory Blue" represents justice, perseverance, and vigilance.

Faith, nor either current political party, does not hold an intrinsic part in those represented ideologies.

The national debt is a world wide disgrace.

Care to address how the Republican Party adds more to the national debt every cycle they're in office? So much for Republicans being the Flag Ordained Rightful Leaders of the Nation.

The tide is turning with the fascist in blue, have lost one of their main propaganda and censorship tools. This will allow the stars to stand out again, via less blue influence.

Again, more nonsesne. Of the two parties that we have, the Republican Party is Right Wing, and the Democratic Party is Left Wing. Fascism does not mean "stuff I don't like", Fascism is a far-right ideology. This Conservative myth that "It's actually those dirty, kale-eating sissy Llllliiiiiibbbbbrr'llllsss that are the fascists!" is wholesale nonsense and demonstrably false.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The flag is red white and blue. White is freedom of religion; good is white. Blue and Red are the two opposite political parties with white Stars or Stripes, meaning both parties are based on secular principles that are not far from the idea of freedom of religion; balances of both needs.

That does not at all fit with history. There were no Reps or Dems when it was made, the stars are the states amd the stripes the original colonies.

 

[JIMMY12345]

I wanted to perhaps discuss (without people trying to kill me, hopefully) the way the US overall culture deals with fascistic narratives and it’s own involvement. Fictional or factual as the case may be.

Please forgive me as an outsider, I can only react to what the country gives us on the world stage.


The pledge of alliance. If this is still a thing, it’s fascist to its very core. Like holy damn!!
Wtf??
I understand why it was implemented but still
Seriously help me understand this my Yank mates!! Please!! It’s beyond creepy to an outsider

Apart from that, there seems to me a very uneasy and even outright denial of fascistic tendencies in US imperialism as a whole. Like it’s implementation is somehow “beneficial” to the world.
“US World Police,” as it were
I’m not sure how to describe it, but like in very obvious tales where The US are stand ins for the oppressive government, this is seemingly ignored wholesale by the culture in question.
Star Wars is a good example.
Where I see many a Yank cheering for the rebels in the prequels even though the literal Ewoks were actual stand ins for the Viet Cong and the literal mascots for the defeat of the US military empire, in context. Like no joke that’s actually what’s Lucas was originally aiming for in the OG trilogy. You can check out the various interviews for yourselves

Yet this narrative is seemingly denied unquestionably by an American audience thinking themselves as the Luke Skywalker stand in. Much to the dismay of the creators over the years

Indeed overseas the PR campaign is one of the US military being one of the saviour class, the heroes. The one’s championed by the nations it saves.
But the rest of the world thinks of the yanks as arrogant idiots. To put it mildly. They’re disliked by the world for their arrogance and their military superiority is just due to their military budget, nothing of actual importance or actual substance. It doesn’t impress anyone, is what I’m saying. No contribution of actual monetary value is seen as a substitute for actual value for the human species as a whole

Aplogoes for anyone offended. Indeed I have family still serving in my own militia. So I have nothing but respect for the actual militia themselves

Discuss my OP as you like.
I have no qualms. Just be respectful. Please guys!!!

Balance.USA got some wrong eg Vietnam.They got a lot right.The world loves and respects USA and UK for its stance on Ukraine.

 

[jbg]

The pledge of alliance. If this is still a thing, it’s fascist to its very core. Like holy damn!!
Wtf??
I understand why it was implemented but still
Seriously help me understand this my Yank mates!! Please!! It’s beyond creepy to an outsider

Please explain what makes it fascistic?

 

[SomeRandom]

Please explain what makes it fascistic?

It is rather “1984 esque” no?
I mean it just reinforces pledging of blind loyalty. And to do it so often as well
From the outside it does look rather creepy, no offence.

No one else has anything like that. I mean you might take a pledge of sorts when you become an official citizen. More for legal purposes but that’s about it

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

It's Nationalistic, which is a huge point of Fascism.

 

[jbg]

It is rather “1984 esque” no?
I mean it just reinforces pledging of blind loyalty. And to do it so often as well
From the outside it does look rather creepy, no offence.

No one else has anything like that. I mean you might take a pledge of sorts when you become an official citizen. More for legal purposes but that’s about it

You are pledging to an inanimate object, a concept. That is not blind loyalty, since the people of the U.S., as a Republic with a liberal government system, have the right to peacefully change the system.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

You are pledging to an inanimate object, a concept.

What a silly thing to pledge loyalty to.

But correction, Americans are coerced to pledge allegiance. That is blind loyalty as the pledge is repeated as a requirement to "not be a traitor", rather than a singular instance of nationalization.