Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?

[SkepticThinker]

I think it’s you with your confirmation bias and sticking your head in the sand, refusing to look at spiritual issues as the problem.
See how narrow minded your thinking is? Your only solution is harmful drugs. You refuse to look at spiritual issues and deny they’re there, why? Because you cannot see them with your physical eyes?

The drugs aren't harmful to those people though. Did you not even bother reading that study either?
The drugs HELPED those people to achieve functional lives again. Demonstrably so. You claim that this approach is cruel and uncompassionate when it's the complete opposite. If anyone is sticking their head in the sand here, it would be you.

You'll need to demonstrate that "spiritual matters" have anything to do with anything, before I consider them. Heck, I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

 

[ElishaElijah]

In other words, it's an anecdote. And therefore, not statistically significant.

You don't seem to be capable or willing to addressing counter points to your claims with anything other than attempted insults.

I don’t care about statistics but real life results. What’s the insult ? The drugs have side effects so to say they aren’t harmful is dishonest, also drug dependency is harmful to the body, your body gets used to the dosage and you need more or different drugs, don’t see how this is freedom.

 

[ElishaElijah]

You didn't even read them.
Get back to me when you're actually interested in honest discussion.

I read one of them and they don’t say much, what did say a lot was Jill’s story and I can definitely see how that helped her.
I also see the problems when people are actually guilty of things they’ve done and their guilty conscience.
When you convince people to deny this instead of leading them to their Creator and finding forgiveness and healing then that’s where you’re way off. I say that because we can argue God all day long right now and get nowhere. But when the Judgement comes and you’ve counseled people who are standing before God that He doesn’t exist then what? I’m sorry for your loss?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Share yours here.

Dark matter - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The primary evidence for dark matter comes from calculations showing that many galaxies would behave quite differently if they did not contain a large amount of unseen matter. Some galaxies would not have formed at all and others would not move as they currently do.[3] Other lines of evidence include observations in gravitational lensing[4] and the cosmic microwave background, along with astronomical observations of the observable universe's current structure, the formation and evolution of galaxies, mass location during galactic collisions,[5] and the motion of galaxies within galaxy clusters.

You can follow the links for the scientific underpinnings of each of those lines of evidence.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1516944112#:~:text=The%20evidence%20for%20the%20existence,in%20the%20universe%2C%20gravitational%20lensing%2C

NASA - NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter

Now it's your turn. But you're not going to bother, are you?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's deliberate.

I figured as much. The epitome of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think it’s you with your confirmation bias and sticking your head in the sand, refusing to look at spiritual issues as the problem.
See how narrow minded your thinking is? Your only solution is harmful drugs. You refuse to look at spiritual issues and deny they’re there, why? Because you cannot see them with your physical eyes?

Show me the double blind clinical trials where people with schizofrenia are helped with "spiritual treatment" - whatever that means.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It’s my single testimony because I only have one life. I let the millions of other people tell their stories.
You’re just 1 Dimensional

No, I just value objective evidence over personal anecdotes.

 

[Eddi]

They don’t get their life back though, wouldn’t call a life of harmful drugs and drug dependence getting your life back.

I'm on some very strong anti-psychotic meds that can have very drastic side effects

And these meds have indeed given me my life back

In 2016 I suddenly stopped taking them and in less than two week's time I was on a psychiatric ward

They work

 

[ElishaElijah]

Do you all disagree then with Psychology today and what this person is saying? I’m not even saying I agree with the blog except human beings being spiritual beings.

Spiritual Beings on a Human Journey—Remembering Our Stardust

Tapping into what the body already knows.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don’t care about statistics but real life results.

Statistics reflect real life results.
Anecdotes do NOT.

What’s the insult ? The drugs have side effects

All drugs have side effects.

so to say they aren’t harmful is dishonest

All drugs are always a tradeoff between side effects and how they help the sick.

Doctors don't like prescribing anti-biotics, but when infections are so nasty that they threaten to shut down organs, then anti-biotics are the only way to go.
Chemo is devastating to your body. But not as much as an untreated cancer which will end up killing you.

, also drug dependency is harmful to the body, your body gets used to the dosage and you need more or different drugs, don’t see how this is freedom.

That's not true at all for all drugs.

And again, if the tradeoff is being dependent on drug X while being able to live a functional life or not being dependent and NOT being able to live a functional life, then being drug dependent gives the most advantage.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I read one of them and they don’t say much, what did say a lot was Jill’s story and I can definitely see how that helped her.
I also see the problems when people are actually guilty of things they’ve done and their guilty conscience.
When you convince people to deny this instead of leading them to their Creator and finding forgiveness and healing then that’s where you’re way off. I say that because we can argue God all day long right now and get nowhere. But when the Judgement comes and you’ve counseled people who are standing before God that He doesn’t exist then what? I’m sorry for your loss?

Let's test this.
Next time you get an aggressive cancer, you try and pray away the tumor.
I'll get medical treatment including devastating chemo.

Let's see who still stands 3 years later.


(actually, let's not... I advice you to get medical treatment also)

 

[ElishaElijah]

I'm on some very strong anti-psychotic meds that can have very drastic side effects

And these meds have indeed given me my life back

In 2016 I suddenly stopped taking them and in less than two week's time I was on a psychiatric ward

They work

I’m glad the drugs helped you, I’m not saying the drugs don’t help but why would you even think about not taking them when they were helping you?
Wouldn’t you like to explore having a life without the drug dependence? I had to have the drugs and alcohol to cope with life, I was miserable without them but they were also killing me. God changed that for me 35 years ago.
I have no problem with working with doctors, they do their part and I do mine. I don’t cross over into that field, I do have a problem when doctors or others deny the spiritual aspect of a person because of their own unbelief or prejudice against God and counsel against this.

 

[setarcos]

I don't believe, or I'm not convinced is NOT a belief. It's a lack of belief.
Sorry you don't understand.

Reiterating what you believe is the case is not an argument for that belief. I think I understand what you've said that belief is. I think I've argued against that belief being accurate. You've not addressed my argument nor presented a counter to that argument beyond the gumball analogy, which I've addressed. Nor have you answered any of my questions.
"I don't believe" is a considered response based in belief. Lack of belief is not. It is a state of being. I don't know how to make it clearer except through interactive discussion of the arguments for and against. But if your not interactive with those arguments no further progress can be made.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Show me the double blind clinical trials where people with schizofrenia are helped with "spiritual treatment" - whatever that means.

Unbelieving doctors don’t have the ability or authority to cast out demons, if they are the ones causing the mental illness.
The person would have to go to a Deliverance Service and get prayed for, if a demon manifests itself, the person receives Jesus Christ then if they have a demon it can be expelled. This is all in the Bible and happening now all over the world.

 

[nPeace]

Dark matter - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The primary evidence for dark matter comes from calculations showing that many galaxies would behave quite differently if they did not contain a large amount of unseen matter. Some galaxies would not have formed at all and others would not move as they currently do.[3] Other lines of evidence include observations in gravitational lensing[4] and the cosmic microwave background, along with astronomical observations of the observable universe's current structure, the formation and evolution of galaxies, mass location during galactic collisions,[5] and the motion of galaxies within galaxy clusters.

You can follow the links for the scientific underpinnings of each of those lines of evidence.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1516944112#:~:text=The%20evidence%20for%20the%20existence,in%20the%20universe%2C%20gravitational%20lensing%2C

NASA - NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter

Now it's your turn. But you're not going to bother, are you?

You have just linked to another claim that supports your claim. That is not objective evidence. It is rather, based on yours, as well as others' ideas.

How many times must I post these links.
pure mathematics, and not invisible matter, could explain why galaxies behave as they do
A proposed theory of gravity does away with dark matter, even as new astrophysical findings challenge the need for galaxies full of the invisible mystery particles
a New Theory of Gravity - MOND - requiring no invisible matter

You have not denied them, nor demonstrated that they are invalid.
So until you do so, you have provided no objective evidence for Dark Matter. Just subjective opinions.

Clear that hurdle, and we can talk about my turn.

 

[nPeace]

I figured as much. The epitome of intellectual dishonesty.

You mean on your part, because you certainly can't be referring to me, in any kind of honest way.

 

[setarcos]

It is incorrect to say that there is no evidence.
"The primary evidence for dark matter comes from calculations showing that many galaxies would behave quite differently if they did not contain a large amount of unseen matter. Some galaxies would not have formed at all and others would not move as they currently do. Other lines of evidence include observations in gravitational lensing and the cosmic microwave background, along with astronomical observations of the observable universe's current structure, the formation and evolution of galaxies, mass location during galactic collisions, and the motion of galaxies within galaxy clusters." - Wikipedia

I think the point was that there is no evidence for specifically what the cause is. There is only evidence for the perceived effects of this unknown cause. So we have observed effects attributed to some hypothetical unknown cause which has been given a label. Of course the effects observed can't even be correlated to a specific cause since the cause is unknown...that is - unexplained as of yet. Same with dark energy. Effects in the universe have been observed that are inexplicable by current theory so an unknown cause is hypothesized with a label. In other words there is no evidence for WHAT the cause is. The only evidence observed is evidence of effect.
The cause does not explain the effect because it is unknown. The effect cannot explain a cause because it cannot be correlated to that unknown cause.

 

[nPeace]

I think the point was that there is no evidence for specifically what the cause is. There is only evidence for the perceived effects of this unknown cause. So we have observed effects attributed to some hypothetical unknown cause which has been given a label. Of course the effects observed can't even be correlated to a specific cause since the cause is unknown...that is - unexplained as of yet. Same with dark energy. Effects in the universe have been observed that are inexplicable by current theory so an unknown cause is hypothesized with a label. In other words there is no evidence for WHAT the cause is. The only evidence observed is evidence of effect.
The cause does not explain the effect because it is unknown. The effect cannot explain a cause because it cannot be correlated to that unknown cause.

Seems they don't seem to get that. Or they don't want to, because it makes them feel they have something over demons being the cause of observed effects.
If I saw a heavy door slam really hard, and I know the wind cannot move it, and no one touched that door, it is a phenomenon for which there is some explanation. What?
It's not my TV remote.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don’t care about statistics but real life results. What’s the insult ? The drugs have side effects so to say they aren’t harmful is dishonest, also drug dependency is harmful to the body, your body gets used to the dosage and you need more or different drugs, don’t see how this is freedom.

Statistics are a demonstration of real life results. Anecdotes are not.

If the drugs are helping people to lead fully functional lives that they weren't leading before, then those drugs are beneficial, not harmful. Why is this concept difficult for you?

 

[Apostle John]

How do we know there is a God and that God did such a thing? What reason do we have to insert any God into the equation at all?

You can be a pseudoscientist if you like. You have free will to guess about things like the existence of God.